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No, an international incident is when Chechnya's president takes personal offense over the game and it hits Russian politics. Man it was weird having friends who follow Russian politics but not Vampire trying to figure out what the gently caress was going on during that.
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Sep 26, 2019 20:15
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The Unlife Aquatic posted:It's all poisoned, and there's no way to salvage what good ideas it does have. At this point it's a matter of damage control, I believe. We can let this keep happening or we can do something about it. I know, for my part, that I and other LGBT people who read this thread are really uncomfortable when VtM comes up and I have to imagine there are others. People here still like V20, me included. V5 is good, and I think V20 is probably equal when it comes to social climbing and stuff, throwing out VtM entirely is just overboard.
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Sep 26, 2019 20:17
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Modiphius said the PDF for the V5 Player's Guide would be out by Christmas, so if there was any moment to decide whether or not to write off V5 completely I'd think it would be then.
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Sep 26, 2019 20:17
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Rand Brittain posted:I don't think people are going to observe a rule that throws the most popular WoD property out of the WoD thread. "It's all poisoned" isn't anything like a consensus. Yeah, for sure. I love V20 and so on so just ban V5 chat.
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Sep 26, 2019 20:18
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Silo'ing V5 into the Zak S zone would have a positive effect to the WoD thread e: especially as they're also responsible for both hiring Zak S as a writer and declaring him Fully Fine
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Sep 26, 2019 20:19
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Rand Brittain posted:I don't think people are going to observe a rule that throws the most popular WoD property out of the WoD thread. "It's all poisoned" isn't anything like a consensus. This is literally how we got a TG Discussion forum by the way: The argument was made that having PbP and TGD side-by-side was confusing and annoying for people who wanted to post about games but not play games by posting (because the PbP content would shove any slower-paced thread off the first forums page or two pretty reliably), so they made two forums, despite moderation at the time insisting that there wasn't enough interest to support the discussion threads. TGD Supremacy, Happyelf Total Victory.
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Sep 26, 2019 20:19
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I mean, you barely even have to ban V5 chat; just ban Metapod and there won't be any more V5 chat until he socks again or Dracula manages to start a war with Ukraine. People don't really have much to say about it.
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Sep 26, 2019 20:19
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Mors Rattus posted:No, an international incident is when Chechnya's president takes personal offense over the game and it hits Russian politics. Alright foreign leader reads the book gets mad for whatever reason then what
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Sep 26, 2019 20:25
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Metapod posted:Alright foreign leader reads the book gets mad for whatever reason then what Did you read the content in the book that caused this? And that White Wolf basically got dissolved into Paradox as Paradox themselves went 'oh hell what were you doing over there?' NuWW went looking for this, and they got it.
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Sep 26, 2019 20:27
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Metapod posted:Alright foreign leader reads the book gets mad for whatever reason then what it was an incident and it was international
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Sep 26, 2019 20:28
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The specific content: Mark Rein*Hagen (probably, not definitely but he definitely was taking credit for the content BEFORE he felt like he might get arrested for it) wrote about how Chechnya's concentration camps for gay people and whole anti-gay crusading was actually a smokescreen for vampires having taken over Chechnya, and had made a caricature of the Chechan president a ghoul under their control. e: like, this was offensive to actually normal people because holy poo poo, you're making genocide of gay folks into a smokescreen? and offensive to the Chechan president because gay people don't exist in Chechnya according to official Chechan propaganda e2: this was specifically in the Camarilla book, I believe. I think it got removed by Modiphius and now exists only in the original print run? The Chechan president demanded some...weird thing involving a "World of Light" rebuttal, that never went anywhere, but Russia definitely starting investigating a bunch of distributors and arrests were threatened in some cases. Big ol' thing in the news cycle of Russia and Eastern Europe for several days, and it ended with Paradox literally shutting down White Wolf as a subsidiary company, taking everything back into the Paradox corporate house and, at about the time Swedish law would've allowed it, firing Martin Ericsson, the guy who had been running the show there. Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Sep 26, 2019 |
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Sep 26, 2019 20:31
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This thread is not fun to read anymore for someone who is new to all of this.Gerund posted:Silo'ing V5 into the Zak S zone would have a positive effect to the WoD thread So I'm reading that Zak S is a serial harasser and a gamer-gater. Is he still writing for White Wolf/Onyx Path?
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Sep 26, 2019 20:36
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No, not for quite a while. He wrote for one execrable mobile game for White Wolf; Martin Ericsson defended him when complaints came up. This was...gosh, two years ago now? One or two years ago, before V5 itself really came out. He has not been rehired, and has never worked for Onyx Path. E: and yes, Zak S is a serial harasser and has been credibly accused of sexual abuse by his ex-girlfriend.
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Sep 26, 2019 20:37
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Wiccan Wasteland posted:This thread is not fun to read anymore for someone who is new to all of this. The Serial Harasser "and" GG part is tenuous since the guy made a point to not outwardly truck with that scene but he was a Fellow Traveler in that he did mostly the same sort of harrassment at mostly the same sort of targets. Swedracula hired him to write a short text-game for the V5 setting about rear end-smears and coded swipes at Trans folk he disliked. People who knew of Zak S complained. Swedracula then said he looked into everything and Zak S was Always Fine, but didn't put his name onto any other projects either because the block was too hot.
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Sep 26, 2019 20:44
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As someone who actually read through this whole shitshow of a thread while bored at work, I propose that the split be oWoD/CoD/V5 in one thread, and Magechat&Oberst/Metapod in another. And then like a month later perma anyone who posted in the latter
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Sep 26, 2019 20:50
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mage chat comes to dominate because mage is the best game don't be a hater
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Sep 26, 2019 20:59
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Blitz7x posted:Am I crazy thinking the #MeToo thing is pretty interesting and culturally relevant? When you guys roleplay do you spend three hours covering your mouth with your cape and yelling BLEH at people or what ElNarez posted:there were several instances of nazi dogwhistling in the playtest documents for V5, including a sample roll of a one, a four, and two eights and calling the Brujah clan bane "triggered" , while the final book still does say that, amongst other archetypes, some Brujah wind up as neo-nazis I'm sorry to do this if people wish to discuss something else, but there's one thing which hasn't been brought up in this topic to my knowledge which I think is salient to the ties between fascist rhetoric and V5 which needs to be said. The Neo-Nazi Brujah is even worse than you think: one of the entries under the Brujah (in the actual released rulebook) reads as such: quote:Common perception place punks, gang-members, maladjusted immigrants rejected by the society that should protect them, and placard-carrying and Molotovwielding rioters among the Brujah. While the clan definitely includes substantial numbers of vocal and visible outsiders, their desire for rebellion reaches as deep as the fraudster ripping off his own company, the lawyer representing the poor pro bono, the neo-Nazi claiming to be “alt-right,” and the basement-dweller downloading thousands of movies illegally for redistribution on streaming sites. Fledglings Embraced to fight and protest are commonly known as rabble. Keyword "claim." And the term 'alt-right' in quotes. The term alt-right was invented in 2010 by Richard Spencer, a literal Neo-Nazi. And it's been in vogue for fascist groups to pretend that there's some significant degree of separation between white supremacy that pretends they hate people of color "because of culture, not race" or "we believe 95% of what fascists promotee except we don't think that Jews rule the world" vs. the overt Hitlerian kind. They do this so that they can spread their ideas more easily into the mainstream; look at how prominent Fox News hosts like Tucker Carlson repeat the Great Replacement conspiracy which is basically "we don't want immigrants interracially marrying whites." The author is attempting to make the phrase more 'respectable' by dissociating it from the Richard Spencers of the world. A Neo-Nazi has no need to 'claim' this; for the alt-right is, and grew out of, Nazism by default. Libertad! fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Sep 26, 2019 |
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Sep 26, 2019 21:12
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Xinder posted:And it had the opposite effect on me when you originally posted it. “My gm is good because they thought it was a good idea to bring #metoo into a vampire game where an npc did a *false accusation* on a pc” is really gross right on the face of it. Everything after that is just trying to salvage the wreckage. If that’s the impression you got of my story then clearly I did a horrible job explaining it, and actually I’m just going to drop the whole thing because any time I try to make a good-faith effort to talk about my positive experience with V5 in this thread it gets rebuked and lumped into some weird cabal of trolls/sockpuppets See y’all in the V5 thread (but not metapod)
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Sep 26, 2019 21:26
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In response to the lgbt statement previously, I’m a proud lesbian and I wouldn’t say I’m uncomfortable in the slightest. Yeah someone said something gross to me but it wouldn’t be the first time that happened and likely won’t be the last. I play vampire generally because I think it’s a compelling environment to tell a story with all of its flaws. Said flaws my groups acknowledge and write past them, change it, build the game to suit our needs. To me the books are just window dressing that you can pick from if you really want to and not an obligation. I don’t see much of a difference between how a Lovecraft inspired piece of media can be enjoyed with all of its flaws and baggage and how my group in particular enjoy being vampires and the moral conundrums that present itself. You can make the game about nazis or the alt right and that’s absolutely fine, but I imagine a lot of people (obviously including myself) can marginalize or outright erase their influence on the game entirely which is what you should do I think. Not give them power in any way. I would rather take this game and anger the people that might hate me by enjoying and reworking it rather than shy away from it and give them something to cling to. Please let me know if this makes me the wrong type of lesbian or not.
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Sep 26, 2019 21:31
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I've researched the incident From what I've gathered the writers tried to tackle the persecution of homosexuals in Chechnya but did so very poorly in first person. Then Russia got mad because they brought up these bad things they are doing. Then Paradox fired the people responsible for writing it and took that section out. Is this all correct
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Sep 26, 2019 21:52
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Metapod posted:I've researched the incident That is extremely horrible and tasteless, you have to admit. Like no question the stone cold dumbest thing you put into any tabletop for the sake of being edgy.
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Sep 26, 2019 21:56
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It also created the incredibly dumb and insulting claim that the human rights abuses are just cover for vampires - that's inherently tasteless and offensive, but also, it quite literally gave the Chechen government some cover to throw around denial they were doing anything of the sort - after all, it's a fake atrocity invented by fake vampires. That's not at all the majority of how they manage information but it's certainly a bad look to try to raise awareness and instead muddy the waters.
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Sep 26, 2019 22:04
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Paradox also dissolved White Wolf as a separate company subsidiary to Paradox, which it had been up to that point, and announced that there would be no further in-house publishing, but rather licensing out to Modiphius and Onyx Path. (Paradox had also been essentially entirely hands-off, the way Paradox reps tell it - people had been sending emails to Paradox about other idiotic stunts that Ericsson was pulling before then and had gotten responses back that essentially White Wolf as a separate subsidiary was not something the parent company was responsible for the actions of.)
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Sep 26, 2019 22:07
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Metapod posted:I've researched the incident To my knowledge Chechnya is politically Russian territory, but due to ethnic nationalism and separatism they want to become independent and there's a certain degree of political autonomy. However both Chechnyan and Russian governments are united in their hatred of LGBT people and see the Vampire thing as an excuse to jab against the "decadent, liberal West." This Russian Today article* portrays the whole Vampire 5e scenario as a "lol look at this crazy RPG." But at the same time pointed out that government forces in the region are very angry at White Wolf, which is acknowledged in the paragraph at the end of the article. https://www.rt.com/news/444144-chechnya-vampires-ramzan-table-game/ *A media outlet you should take with a grain of salt as they promote Fake News of many varieties.
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Sep 26, 2019 22:10
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They also described what was going on in chechnya in such ludicrously over the top terms that you would have no idea they were based on something "real" without intimate knowledge of the goings on of the region. Particularly since WW/OPP have endeavored not to include real world people as characters in their book since 2004 at least, if not earlier. Because using real world events as game material cheapens real world suffering. And I do mean they were ludicrously over the top. Ramzan was described as a "sultan" with a zoo full of ghouled animals amongst other things. And the Chechnyan/Russian governments were arresting people only tangentially related to the events and threatening their lives/livelihoods unless they named names, trying to find the actual author. IIRC the excuse from either MR*H or Swedracula was that since a vampire was saying these things you shouldn't believe what they're saying (because vampires are evil and evil people never tell the truth) even though the section in question was presented as a research paper by an academic with no in universe reason to lie. Said research paper also mentioned some kind of vampire ISIS, because the Chechnya stuff wasn't ridiculous enough.
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Sep 26, 2019 22:26
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Kurieg posted:
Did we ever get credible reports of that? The only ones I ever heard were from that one Rein-Hagen stan who was eager to come up with reasons why we should definitely stop talking about it forever.
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Sep 26, 2019 22:38
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As a wise man once said "I don't speak loving russian" so I only ever had second hand reports, but Chechnyan officials were saying that they were threatening some kind of litigation. e: https://twitter.com/Ettin64/status/1064498954413334528 Kurieg fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Sep 26, 2019 |
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Sep 26, 2019 22:58
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https://en.crimerussia.com/gromkie-dela/chechens-hate-vampire-the-masquerade-game-for-sultan-ramzan-character/ https://www.rt.com/news/444144-chechnya-vampires-ramzan-table-game/
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Sep 26, 2019 23:08
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What the hell is all this Why can't I just play a vampire in a tabletop game with a leather trenchcoat listening to Korn in a time when people could take a joke
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Sep 26, 2019 23:12
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Dave Brookshaw posted:https://en.crimerussia.com/gromkie-dela/chechens-hate-vampire-the-masquerade-game-for-sultan-ramzan-character/ That doesn’t really mention the stuff about the Russian government hunting the authors down. Does anybody speak enough Russian to explain what the thing in Ettin’s tweet says?
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Sep 26, 2019 23:16
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Rand Brittain posted:That doesn’t really mention the stuff about the Russian government hunting the authors down. Does anybody speak enough Russian to explain what the thing in Ettin’s tweet says? Is Ettin's the one posted a few above? If so, its the minister of external relations (and a bunch of other titles) giving a press conference to the National News Service asking the localization team to help them identify who wrote the section about Chechnya. He claims Paradox's removal of the section and dissolution of White Wolf was "insufficient", and claims its their civic duty to help him. Not sure what Studio 101's reply was, the article doesn't say.
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Sep 26, 2019 23:44
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Desiden posted:Is Ettin's the one posted a few above? If so, its the minister of external relations (and a bunch of other titles) giving a press conference to the National News Service asking the localization team to help them identify who wrote the section about Chechnya. He claims Paradox's removal of the section and dissolution of White Wolf was "insufficient", and claims its their civic duty to help him. Okay, that sounds a lot closer to legit.
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Sep 26, 2019 23:46
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I don't care about 5e one way or the other at this point but saying "Here's the World of Darkness thread also you cannot talk about the most popular World of Darkness property at all despite it being the one getting a major video game release in less than a year" seems like a bad prospect
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Sep 26, 2019 23:50
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Blitz7x posted:What the hell is all this Nah man you have to look into yourself and think long and hard if you're willing to play a game that tried to bring to light a terrible thing happening in Russia
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Sep 27, 2019 00:04
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Metapod posted:Nah man you have to look into yourself and think long and hard if you're willing to play a game that tried to bring to light a terrible thing happening in Russia You know how you bring to light a terrible thing happening in the real world? With an out of character sidebar that says "Hey this is actually a terrible thing that's happening in the real world." not speaking of it with the same gravity and realism as "The vampire sultan of Chechnya is trying to create a second ISIS."
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Sep 27, 2019 00:18
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The latest version of Delta Green's timeline shifts at September 11th 2001 from being about fictional Cthulhu-y military incidents to just being a list of every awful thing that's happened in the world in the last nearly two decades to set the tone properly for the game instead of going "deep ones got Trump elected" or some dumb poo poo like that. It's actually very easy to not be insulting about real life tragedies.
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Sep 27, 2019 00:31
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Kurieg posted:You know how you bring to light a terrible thing happening in the real world? With an out of character sidebar that says "Hey this is actually a terrible thing that's happening in the real world." not speaking of it with the same gravity and realism as "The vampire sultan of Chechnya is trying to create a second ISIS." you can dislike the execution and appreciate the thought
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Sep 27, 2019 00:44
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Metapod posted:why what they said is wrong and be willing to have a dialogue about things within or people do in the wod that may be problematic instead of attacking like hounds. Translation: Nothing that you have done in this thread. Lets just loving put anything related to that poo poo storm of a game 5th edition is into another thread. There is literally NOTHING that's been productive or new that's been brought up in the last few flame wars about this awful game. 5th edition deserves to be burned. End of Story. TheNamedSavior fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Sep 27, 2019 |
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Sep 27, 2019 00:49
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Rand Brittain posted:I mean, you barely even have to ban V5 chat; just ban Metapod and there won't be any more V5 chat until he socks again or Dracula manages to start a war with Ukraine. People don't really have much to say about it. I'd legit like to hear about actual plays from nonchuds. A friend is playing it and they love the hunger mechanic and predator ATs. Just ban posters who repeatedly post in bad faith.
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Sep 27, 2019 00:51
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1994 Toyota Celica posted:mage chat comes to dominate because mage is the best game Actually Wraith is the best game.
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Sep 27, 2019 00:52
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