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Epicurius posted:No. It was a tax. But they weren't slaves. "Slave" was a specific social class in ancient Egypt, and the farmers who were conscripted into labor gangs (and paid, btw) weren't members of that class. Draftees got payed in addition to room and board.
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Oct 17, 2019 18:21
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LingcodKilla posted:Serfs are just slaves you don’t have a responsibility to feed or cloth. i mean the lord does have that responsibility in most manorial economies tho. they often didn't follow through satisfactorily, but serfdom is a two-way street in a way that slavery isn't. a serf is not literally property, but bound via customary obligations to a lord who is in turn bound to certain obligations in return. egyptian workers were bound to provide labor during the off-season, but were not literally owned by the pharaoh. it's conscription.
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Oct 17, 2019 18:22
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Family Values posted:The workers were fed and housed, and participation was part of the Egyptian religion. Trying to understand it in terms of modern economic transactions doesn't make sense. This works for me.
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Oct 17, 2019 18:25
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LingcodKilla posted:Draftees got payed in addition to room and board. So did the peasants who built the pyramids.
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Oct 17, 2019 18:26
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Epicurius posted:So did the peasants who built the pyramids. Thought you didn’t get payed in the corvee system.
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Oct 17, 2019 18:27
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LingcodKilla posted:Thought you didn’t get payed in the corvee system. it really varies by based on the time and place. There were corvee systems where you were expected to feed yourself while you were working for someone else. As I recall this was typical for corvee in Africa under European colonial rule. Unsurprisingly, these obligations were extremely unpopular and often killed a lot of the participants. In a subsistence economy just getting food and beer in exchange for your labor is not that bad a deal.
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Oct 17, 2019 18:34
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LingcodKilla posted:Draftees got payed in addition to room and board. So did the corvee. At least in Sumeria and Egypt. There are records listing how much they were paid (mostly in kind rather than cash, since that wasn't as widely used). Other labor drafts didn't pay you, the French were notorious for not paying their corvees.
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Oct 17, 2019 18:53
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Did they get paid out of taxes or the excess of royal land?
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Oct 17, 2019 18:59
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I'm trying to find a translation of the Diary of Merer and coming up short, but it's a first hand account of a crew of workers building Khorfu's (Great) Pyramid. It covers 3 months and details the tax revenue gathered and the pay paid to the workers. It even looks like boring account books: Anyway, here's a pop-sci article about it.
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Oct 17, 2019 19:03
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cheetah7071 posted:Did they get paid out of taxes or the excess of royal land? It depends. In Sumeria, temples and city government and kings are all kind of jumbled together. The temples owned the land, and they pay wages for the corvee. Later the kings take over management of the corvee system and pay wages. You also start seeing the rise of the tax collector at that time. Taxes go to supporting the king and his household and his armies, but also to public works. Then kings realize that maybe they can get their neighbors to pay them tribute and use that for public works. In Egypt, similarly, you go from temples-> pharaoh-> nobles who control the land. Temples pay for religious stuff, kings for royal stuff, etc. But Egypt didn't have the big problem with flood control and defense that Sumeria did.
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Oct 17, 2019 19:22
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Also exodus was written 2000 years after the Pyramid of Giza was constructed.
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Oct 17, 2019 19:53
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euphronius posted:Also exodus was written 2000 years after the Pyramid of Giza was constructed. I kinda like the theory that Exodus would be an even older story, which was simply repurposed or something... Saw something along the lines in a  documentary called Exodus. (I think)It was pretty interesting
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Oct 17, 2019 20:54
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I mean the story definitely existed before it was written down in the Torah as we know it, so
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Oct 17, 2019 21:03
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Exodus was written contemporary to the babylonian exile in the same way MASH was written about a contemporary war but set as one in the past.
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Oct 17, 2019 21:08
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Uh The events in exodus didn’t Happen unlike the Korean War. Not really sure about your analogy
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Oct 17, 2019 21:09
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euphronius posted:Uh Its these comments said with so much certainty that makes a lot of people dislike historians. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe in Exodus. But if I find 30 pages of a 1500 pages book, I wont pretend I know the entire story. You feel me?
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Oct 17, 2019 21:14
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euphronius posted:Uh MASH was on air longer than the Korean war took place. It was a story about something current framed as a historic event. I wasn't trying to say the exodus was real. Just comparing story telling elements and the reasons for the story in the first place.
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Oct 17, 2019 21:19
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euphronius posted:Uh Yeah, that's an overly broad assertion that goes well beyond the available data. The Exodus, literally as described in the Book of Exodus, probably didn't happen as written, but some relatively small band of Canaanites fleeing Egypt during the Sea People invasion is fully consistent with the evidence on the ground. That doesn't mean it did happen, but declaring absolutely that it didn't is inaccurate.
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Oct 17, 2019 21:22
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Correct me if im wrong but isnt there an actual known phenomenon which sometimes result in the red sea, and this is said very loosely, to be parted in two?
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Oct 17, 2019 21:28
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Dalael posted:Correct me if im wrong but isnt there an actual known phenomenon which sometimes result in the red sea, and this is said very loosely, to be parted in two? Found it: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0012481 Not quite the red sea but... *edit: quote isnt edit
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Oct 17, 2019 21:32
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bennyfactor posted:has them making clay bricks, and the pyramids are made from stone.
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Oct 17, 2019 21:40
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Deteriorata posted:Yeah, that's an overly broad assertion that goes well beyond the available data. I think the bar should be a little higher than that. If Israelites were held in bondage in Egypt it's reasonable to expect archaeological evidence, and without that evidence we can say 'it didn't happen'. It's not like Egypt was pre-literate and/or all records have been lost, there is a wealth of recorded history from ancient Egypt and there's nothing like the biblical story. It being an allegory for the Babylonian captivity written contemporaneously is much more plausible than a (at that point) 600 year old oral tradition from the bronze age collapse.
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Oct 17, 2019 21:45
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Family Values posted:I think the bar should be a little higher than that. If Israelites were held in bondage in Egypt it's reasonable to expect archaeological evidence, and without that evidence we can say 'it didn't happen'. It's not like Egypt was pre-literate and/or all records have been lost, there is a wealth of recorded history from ancient Egypt and there's nothing like the biblical story. Rather than saying "it didn't happen," (which is a positive assertion of negation), it's better to say, "there's no evidence for it at this point." Archeology continues apace. Making absolute statements now just leaves you looking foolish later. Canaanites came and went from Egypt regularly, as traders and itinerant workers. The Egyptians themselves didn't pay much heed of them, because they weren't Egyptians - so it's not shocking there's no significant written record about them. There isn't a strong reason to expect there should be, thus its lack isn't particularly damning. Whatever the Exodus was, it was hugely important to the Israelites, but probably meant nothing to the Egyptians. There is evidence of new habitations in the uplands of Judea, established in the early Iron Age (ca. 1175 BC) by people culturally similar to the Canaanites, but distinctive in that they apparently didn't eat pork. They're generally identified as the proto-Hebrews, but exactly where they came from and why they settled there at that time is still under investigation. Deteriorata fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Oct 17, 2019 |
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Oct 17, 2019 21:56
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Well there's no evidence that the Greek Gods didn't live on the summit of Mt Olympus either. The extraordinary claim (the Israelites built the pyramids as slaves) is the one that demands evidence.
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Oct 17, 2019 21:59
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Sorry im bringing a new subject during a cool topic, but this is just too cool not to share: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...impression=true
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Oct 17, 2019 22:03
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Family Values posted:Well there's no evidence that the Greek Gods didn't live on the summit of Mt Olympus either. The extraordinary claim (the Israelites built the pyramids as slaves) is the one that demands evidence. The Israelites most certainly didn't build the pyramids as slaves. The pyramids were built roughly 1300 years earlier. That's one that we can absolutely assert didn't happen. It's a traditional interpretation that originated long before people knew anything about actual Egyptian history. Greeks and Romans built stuff with slaves, so assuming the Egyptians did too wasn't much of a stretch. It was wrong, but not a terrible guess.
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Oct 17, 2019 22:05
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Some early semitic tribe leaving egypt during the bronze age collapse isn't a crazy at all thought to believe. That's a plausible movement of people. The story of slavery and pyramid building is pure mythology. But the bronze age collapse is full of entire groups of people moving to different areas, so it isn't irrational to correlate the two.
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Oct 17, 2019 22:10
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Deteriorata posted:The Israelites most certainly didn't build the pyramids as slaves. The pyramids were built roughly 1300 years earlier. That's one that we can absolutely assert didn't happen. 1300 years before the bronze age collapse. But Exodus was written 600 years after that, so nearly 2000 years after the pyramids. (I know you probably already understand that I'm just emphasizing the timescale, Egypt is like, really old)
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Oct 17, 2019 22:10
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Family Values posted:1300 years before the bronze age collapse. But Exodus was written 600 years after that, so nearly 2000 years after the pyramids. (I know you probably already understand that I'm just emphasizing the timescale, Egypt is like, really old) One of the things i liked about that exodus documentary i mentioned earlier, is the guy believes the story to be much older. I watched it a while ago so i dont remember his explanation but it was interesting. Plausible? No clue. But interesting.
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Oct 17, 2019 22:13
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Family Values posted:Well there's no evidence that the Greek Gods didn't live on the summit of Mt Olympus either. The extraordinary claim (the Israelites built the pyramids as slaves) is the one that demands evidence. Neither Exodus or any sort of jewish tradition claims that. That's pretty much 100% modern evangelical christians not understanding anything about any of it except "Egypt = Pyramids" and "Bible = fact"
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Oct 17, 2019 22:19
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Mr. Nice! posted:Some early semitic tribe leaving egypt during the bronze age collapse isn't a crazy at all thought to believe. That's a plausible movement of people. Here’s the thing, the Egyptians knew where the Israelites were around the time of the Bronze Age collapse. It was in Egyptian-dominated Canaan with the other Canaanites, busy getting laid waste by Merneptah, according to his stele. quote:The princes are prostrate, saying, "Peace!" Granted, Merneptah is tooting his own horn here: within the century, Egyptian hegemony in Canaan would be broken. Any Israelite escape from Egyptian bondage around the turn of the 13th/12th centuries more probably took place in situ than in form of migration.
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Oct 17, 2019 22:30
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skasion posted:Here’s the thing, the Egyptians knew where the Israelites were around the time of the Bronze Age collapse. It was in Egyptian-dominated Canaan with the other Canaanites, busy getting laid waste by Merneptah, according to his stele. That makes a lot of sense.
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Oct 17, 2019 23:09
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Egypt has such a long history that for people living in the New Kingdom over 3000 years ago, it was still possible to speak of "Ancient Egypt" in reference to events that are more distant from them than they are from us. A movie set in that period could be filmed on location on actual ancient ruins without being anachronistic, because those structures were already ancient ruins by that time.
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Oct 17, 2019 23:09
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Deteriorata posted:Yeah, that's an overly broad assertion that goes well beyond the available data. We’ve been over this before and you know I don’t agree with you.
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Oct 17, 2019 23:40
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LingcodKilla posted:Thought you didn’t get payed in the corvee system. Peasants building the pyramid didn’t get paid because “currency” as we know it didn’t exist in Egypt at the time. Virtually everyone was paid for their work in the form of grain and other foodstuffs, with a specific quantity of grain having a set value that you could pay someone in (like “3 rations per day” kind of stuff). For a peasant, this was about all they could expect in any case. Their position was perilous enough that everyone was working toward basic survival on a daily basis, because if you don’t farm you starve. Being recruited to work on construction projects and guaranteed food and water for the duration was little different than how hard you were working and what you were getting out of it in normal life. Remember that the building of the Pyramids is farther from Cleopatra than she is from modern day. They’re contemporary with Sumer, not Rome. Not even Ancient Greece.
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Oct 17, 2019 23:42
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euphronius posted:We’ve been over this before and you know I don’t agree with you. Yes, I know. You're still wrong.
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Oct 17, 2019 23:57
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Deteriorata posted:Yes, I know. You're still wrong. I like your explanations and insight tho If that matters
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Oct 17, 2019 23:58
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Also keep in mind how little we knew of Egyptian history until the Rosetta Stone. We had some Greek and Roman records and that was about it, you couldn't read the massive volumes of Egyptian texts we have now.
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Oct 18, 2019 00:03
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Grand Fromage posted:Also keep in mind how little we knew of Egyptian history until the Rosetta Stone. We had some Greek and Roman records and that was about it, you couldn't read the massive volumes of Egyptian texts we have now. Remember that dude who claimed to have translated hieroglyphs and it was the craziest purple prose bullshit? And he was still seriously believed until the Rosetta Stone was cracked? On that note, when did cartouches become common in hieroglyphs? I saw some at the Chicago Field Museum recently and couldn’t spot any despite the translations saying they had proper names in them.
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Oct 18, 2019 00:17
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Deteriorata posted:Yes, I know. You're still wrong. In order for you to state this so unequivocally you need to demonstrate: a) a band of bronze age Canaanites fled Egypt and wandered the Sinai (no archeological evidence for this despite many people searching for it) b) that band of Canaanites settling in in what would become Israel and becoming the ancestors of, or at least influencing the ancestors of biblical Israelites (no archeological record for Egyptianized Canaanites) c) an oral tradition that retains memory of these out-of-Egypt Canaanites that 600+ years later gets written down and becomes – or at least influences the writing of – the book of Exodus. Evidence for this part is harder, but you would want to, for instance, corroborate details of the story with archeological evidence of what life was really like in bronze age Egypt, i.e. retention of verifiable facts Since none of this exists, and since we don't lend credence to mythology in a 'well it *might've* happened, however improbable' we can say that it didn't happen.
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Oct 18, 2019 00:19
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