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Good old Brueghel, the Where's Wally of the Dutch school. How did people carry their weapons when not in combat? For example, could you carry a sheath for your sword on your hip, no matter how long it was? What about the old "sword-on-back" thing?
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May 31, 2015 07:34
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LoonShia posted:What about the old "sword-on-back" thing? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IocQ_DZVAU0 (No.)
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May 31, 2015 08:20
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wait so bloodborne's giant wheel weapon thing is vaguely accurate? will wonders never cease
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May 31, 2015 08:25
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LoonShia posted:Good old Brueghel, the Where's Wally of the Dutch school. There's this a 15th century fighting manual illustration for dealing with a dagger-armed attacker, where you start off carrying your longsword in a scabbard held in your hand, which implies that people would just skip that fiddly "tie your sword to your body" thing. It's not like knights need a hand free, they've got staff to carry their shopping for them.  Smack him on the arm and stab him dead!
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May 31, 2015 09:10
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There is archaeological evidence for celtic chariot warriors wearing swords on their backs, as a sword on the hip might obstruct jumping on and off the chariot. Most pictures of irish soldiers show the sword in scabbard being held in the hand rather than suspended from anything.
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May 31, 2015 10:43
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Huh, I guess I never considered that they might just, y'know, carry their swords in their hands. Could you use the scabbard in some way while fighting, or is that a bad idea?
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May 31, 2015 13:21
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Well it's better than nothing I suppose
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May 31, 2015 13:57
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FreudianSlippers posted:A breaking wheel pole is a pretty striking image: It seems they want public displays of torture and suffering to deter criminals and political enemies, but can't use good ol' fashioned crucifixion for religious reasons.
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May 31, 2015 14:13
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As I understand it, the shame aspect of justice is really powerful, especially in small, close-knit communities. Sitting in the village stocks for a day might not be that physically stressful, but the humiliation would be a fairly effective punishment. I think there should be more social punishments in our society. Thoughts?
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May 31, 2015 16:53
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LoonShia posted:As I understand it, the shame aspect of justice is really powerful, especially in small, close-knit communities. I think you posted this in the wrong thread. Did you mean to post it here instead?
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May 31, 2015 17:11
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Lead out in cuffs posted:I think you posted this in the wrong thread. Did you mean to post it here instead?
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May 31, 2015 17:12
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LoonShia posted:Sitting in the village stocks for a day might not be that physically stressful, but the humiliation would be a fairly effective punishment. I think there should be more social punishments in our society. Thoughts? We already have tons of social punishments in our society. Virtually all criminal incidents are heavily reported on, with the accused forced to accept being photographed and often videotaped wearing special clothes that denote criminal behavior. The police and prosecutors deliver long statements about how unethical they are, and what damage their actions have caused, and then the judge or jury renders a verdict typically followed by a stern talking to that often is repeated verbatim by journalists. The knowledge of this crime is publicly recorded so that it will follow the convicted wherever they go, and for felony crimes they are legally obligated to report their criminal status in all sorts of situations. As far as social punishments go, our current system is far, far more effective than setting up stocks.
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May 31, 2015 17:12
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Kaal posted:We already have tons of social punishments in our society. Virtually all criminal incidents are heavily reported on, with the accused forced to accept being photographed and often videotaped wearing special clothes that denote criminal behavior. The police and prosecutors deliver long statements about how unethical they are, and what damage their actions have caused, and then the judge or jury renders a verdict typically followed by a stern talking to that often is repeated verbatim by journalists. The knowledge of this crime is publicly recorded so that it will follow the convicted wherever they go, and for felony crimes they are legally obligated to report their criminal status in all sorts of situations. As far as social punishments go, our current system is far, far more effective than setting up stocks. And in the case of certain crimes that have additional taboos, particularly sex crimes, there are additional systems in place as well.
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May 31, 2015 17:15
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Yes that is exactly what we need to do. Stigmatize offenders even more so they have absolutely zero chance of reintegrating into society rather than the narrow chance they have now.
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May 31, 2015 17:51
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Just watched Yojimbo with my friend and the japanese police constable had this thing in his hand: Now how the gently caress are you supposed to use it? I guess you could try to catch the opponents blade into it and twist it away but that sure seems risky.
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May 31, 2015 17:58
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Phobophilia posted:It seems they want public displays of torture and suffering to deter criminals and political enemies, but can't use good ol' fashioned crucifixion for religious reasons. Do we have any hard evidence on how effective or ineffective deterrence via public displays of suffering were back in, say, the medieval era? I kinda suspect the answer is "Not very," but it'd be interesting to see some proper research on the subject.
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May 31, 2015 18:04
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ManOfTheYear posted:Just watched Yojimbo with my friend and the japanese police constable had this thing in his hand: I've never seen that weapon before, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was real. You'd use the prong like the yoku on a sai I'm sure. The advantage there would be that you could club someone rather than fatally stab them. Ah here we go. The jitte was a sai variant used by police during the Edo Period. The distinctive weapon also served as a badge of office, much like a Roman fasces: quote:Jitte may have a small pointed tip or blade attached to the tsuka and hidden in the boshin. Jitte could be highly decorated with all manner of inlays and designs or very plain and basic depending on the status of the owner and the jitte's intended use. Jitte could range in length from around 12 inches to over 24 inches. [9] The modern jitte is about 45 cm (18 inches) long with no cutting edge and a one-pronged tine kagi, about 5 cm long starting just above the handle tsuka and pointing toward the tip sentan. A popular misconception is that the kagi is used to catch a sword. It could possibly be used for this purpose, but the kagi's proximity to the hand would make it rather dangerous. When faced with a swordsman, a more likely use for the kagi would be to capture and arrest the blade after blocking it with the boshin.[12] The kagi 's more common use is to hook into clothing or parts of the body like the nose or mouth, or to push into joints or other weak points on the body. It also could be used to hook the thumb while holding the weapon backwards, to allow different techniques such as punches and blocks, very similarly to a sai. The jitte can also be used in much the same manner as other short sticks or batons, to strike large muscle groups and aid in joint manipulation.[12] Kaal fucked around with this message at 18:34 on May 31, 2015 |
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May 31, 2015 18:26
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ManOfTheYear posted:Just watched Yojimbo with my friend and the japanese police constable had this thing in his hand: It's called a jitte (十手 ; no I have no idea why it's 'ten hands') and it was the traditional weapon of policemen and government officials in Edo Japan, to the point of doubling as the equivalent of a badge/warrant card. While in theory the hook could be used to catch a sword, although it'd be rather risky, it was more generally just used to bind/catch things and also to let you easily switch grips. Really, it's big deal wasn't some silly sword-breaking gimmick and was more that it's 2 feet of iron club that'd gently caress you up pretty bad. e ; fb.
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May 31, 2015 18:35
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Speaking of weird Japanese police gear, the last time I went to Japan I was poking around a museum and saw these lovelies.  You can tell they're police equipment. Those diddly little spikes aren't going to do much against armor and in a real fight you'd want an actual spear (or, you know, a gun) but those spikes do pretty clearly say 'gently caress you.' I think they also had firefighting applications and the barbs were useful for that too. But mostly that's a 'technically I need you alive, but I'm going to lodge as many inch long spikes in your muscle tissue as it takes to make you stop moving' sort of deal.
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Jun 1, 2015 04:04
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I goddamn love Asian polearms, if there is a weird set of spikes to put on the end of a stick, the Chinese or the Japanese have done it
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Jun 1, 2015 04:18
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the JJ posted:Speaking of weird Japanese police gear, the last time I went to Japan I was poking around a museum and saw these lovelies. It's more to catch on clothing than hurt people. Edit: autocorrect LimburgLimbo fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Jun 1, 2015 |
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Jun 1, 2015 14:38
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LimburgLimbo posted:It's more to catch on clothing thank hurt people. And dogs, horses, donkeys, pigs. It's important to remember a 'city' was very different back then, with a ton more animals than we have now, and a lot of keeping of the peace would involve dealing with them. Not sure if this was as true in Japan, but definitely the case in England.
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Jun 1, 2015 14:58
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LimburgLimbo posted:It's more to catch on clothing than hurt people. Yes, but those are big loving spikes. That's going to rip right through your clothes if you even think about thrashing about.
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Jun 1, 2015 15:09
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LimburgLimbo posted:It's more to catch on clothing than hurt people. The key point to make, I think, is that any prospective criminal looking at someone angrily waving that thing at his face is not going to be capable of making the distinction.
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Jun 1, 2015 15:14
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the JJ posted:Yes, but those are big loving spikes. That's going to rip right through your clothes if you even think about thrashing about. Nah, they are explicitly for grabbing clothes. There was a set of three things called the Mitsu-dōgu (lit. "three tools"). These were the 突棒 (tsuku-bō; lit. stabbing stick), the 袖搦 (sode-garami; lit. sleeve grabber/entagler), and the 刺股 (sasu-mata; lit. thigh-grabber). Sode-garami is pretty obvious in it's use; remember kimono have these big loose sleeves that most guys would have. Sasu-mata would be to restrain people by holding them down. I've seen versions with small forks for just holding down limbs, and bigger ones to hold down the whole body. Most schools in Japan actually have a couple aluminum sasu-mata around in case a crazy guy breaks in. Tsuku-bou is more for generally tripping and entangling without any specific action that I'm aware of. Edit: Apparently there's an English version of the sandougu page that just isn't linked to the Japanese one.
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Jun 1, 2015 15:50
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Those honestly look much more like something you'd use to try to take burning thatch off a roof. Completely vital firefighting equipment. Sure, also threatening if waved at someone but I highly doubt that was the primary purpose. edit: apparently this is wrong according to post above. Welp. Then again when I was in china guards at the Bank of China had the literal modern equivalent of A Club With Nails In. Basically an aluminium truncheon studded with kinda mushroom headed spikes, which is pretty hosed up.
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Jun 1, 2015 15:52
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LimburgLimbo posted:Nah, they are explicitly for grabbing clothes. There was a set of three things called the Mitsu-dōgu (lit. "three tools"). These were the 突棒 (tsuku-bō; lit. stabbing stick), the 袖搦 (sode-garami; lit. sleeve grabber/entagler), and the 刺股 (sasu-mata; lit. thigh-grabber). Yeah, I read the wiki article too. They also put spikes all over the rest of them for a reason. Reason being, 'gently caress you stop resisting.' It could have just been a big blunt metal clad T at the end of a stick meant to be swung at your shins, but then they went and covered it in spikes to really get the point across. Likewise the sleeve-catcher. The photo might not show it well but there is a twiddly bit at the end for poking into loose cloth and twisting. The rest of the spikes along the remaining two feet are there because 'gently caress you, you made me run over here with this heavy rear end stick and now I'm immobilizing your hands from ten feet away because you probably have a knife so gently caress you.' I too have seen the more modern forks, they're pretty cool. They, however, lack the 'gently caress you' spikes and are therefore inferior law keeping tools. E: Yeah, they're handy in a pinch for firefighting too.
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Jun 1, 2015 16:07
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I found the kind of spiked batons I was talking about so it wasn't just a fever dream. The precise model I saw was rather different but this is proof that they make this poo poo today and from what I've read are pretty enthusiastically exporting: http://riotpolicegear.sell.everychina.com/p-90463453-steel-anti-riot-baton-police-spiked-club-for-riot-control-equipment.html It certainly made me not want to put a step wrong in the bank I can tell you. NLJP fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Jun 1, 2015 |
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Jun 1, 2015 16:21
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I posted about making glue from the bladders of the small yellow croaker a while ago. After I spoke to a chinese guy who makes fabulous Manchu bows, it turns out that he uses bladders from Miichthys miiuy, which is also a croaker, but larger. Different properties of the material too. Recently prices picked up and the dried bladders are 70€ for 100g, which is twice as much as for dried sturgeon bladders of my source. Which brings us to the reason for this post. I made glue from sturgeon air bladders, which is called Isinglass (THE material to make hornbows and to put into your quality wine) and crazy expensive from wild animals. These are from a fishfarm in Bulgaria, so reasonably priced.  The method of preparation is the same as in the previous post, soak for 2 days. What's different is the consistency and properties of the material. Spongy and soft, kinda like good naan bread. I put it in the mortar and made a dough (left pot), which went really fast. This would have been impossible with the rubbery yellow croaker bladders. I heard that it melts fast, holding it in hand started to melt it, and it was very sticky. I was surprised that the dough kinda melted like wax in the pot and was completely dissolved in less than an hour (compare that to the +12h extraction time of the other bladders). I filtered it and poured the glue into the form. From my last experiment it was clear that ambient temperature was too high for the glue to properly gel, which means that it would simply start to rot after a few days. That almost happened to the 2nd batch. So it went into the fridge. The old bowyers did the sinew job in winter, for exactly this reason. Cold helps the gelling process, which means that the mollecules try to re-form the long protein chains that they previously had in the unprepared form. Cold enables the material to form more of these bonds and this affects the properties (read quality) of the dried glue. I put it in the fridge, this is what came out after about an hour:  The jelly is quite strong, almost odorless. Smells faintly of river. You cut it up to small strips and let it dry.  They say that the quality of the glue is apparent by it's colour. More clear = better quality. This one seems to be quite good. Some dude wanted to buy it instantly when I posted it on Liveinvader. Contrary to the ~50% yield of the croaker glue, this one is more like above 95%. The residue that I filtered out was about 2g, some of the glue got lost in the cloth though. We'll see how much it actually is when it's dry. Another famous bowyer who works in Taiwan also constantly has problems with the glue not gelling and bows starting to rot before they're finished. Hot and humid climates make production of these bows, which contain more than 1/6 of their weight in glue, a finicky job. Normal hideglue (which wasn't used in historical bows and is made by modern synthesis that also includes a degreasing step) has it's melting point about 10 degrees higher and would be more suited to work in the dry season. I guess they're too snobby to use the cheap stuff. The composite bows that you could make in hot climates would be poor performers though, for the reason of bonding given above. The old bowyers from Turkey to China and Korea did the sinew job in winter, they knew why. I think that's one of the reason why you see no composite bow manufacture in tropical climates. The finished bow is another story, which can be maintained without a problem, given the right care, which is the same as for a selfbow. Two-wood laminated selfbows or simple selfbows are way more effective to make and store in the armory in these climates. Rats and all kinds of other vermin like to eat hornbows, which means that you can't put it away for a year and forget it. Keep it on the man and away from dogs.
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Jun 1, 2015 21:20
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I do sometimes wish I could 5 individual posts on SA (edit: but gently caress upvoting). Good poo poo as usual JaucheCharly. edit: also my great grandma handed down that exact kind of mortar and pestle 
NLJP fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Jun 1, 2015 |
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Jun 1, 2015 22:30
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NLJP posted:I do sometimes wish I could 5 individual posts on SA (edit: but gently caress upvoting). Good poo poo as usual JaucheCharly. Yeah, I obviously have nothig to add to JC posts but I love reading them. So keep posting!
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Jun 2, 2015 09:34
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Save a few pieces of it, make friends with a chemist or a material engineer, and get that poo poo tested. It'd probably be interesting.
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Jun 2, 2015 12:53
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I don't know how, but you manage to make posts about glue interesting. 
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Jun 2, 2015 12:57
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Thank you. Actually, this was already done. The article is available to download. Schellmann, Nanke (2007): Animal glues: a review of their key properties relevant to conservation These glues, that are basically collagen, are surprisingly strong. If you dry a sliver of some mm thickness it reminds of hard plastic. It's not flexible (some kinds are more than others) like plastic, but still can take quite some deformation. It contracts so strongly when it dries that it will break a glass jar. Great material for woodworking Power Khan fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Jun 2, 2015 |
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Jun 2, 2015 13:36
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Finally caught up on this thread. Favorite one on SA for sure. Thanks for starting it, Railtus! I've been out of the sword game for a while. Where does everyone look for reasonably priced items now?
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Jun 10, 2015 13:59
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10 Beers posted:Finally caught up on this thread. Favorite one on SA for sure. Thanks for starting it, Railtus! Check out Kult of Athena.
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Jun 10, 2015 14:04
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10 Beers posted:Where does everyone look for reasonably priced items now? I would recommend considering used equipment if cost is a major factor in your decisions. I've had some amazing finds on reddit from clueless sellers not appraising the value of what they're selling adequately, and there's always the http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewforum.php?f=14 marketplace were people are selling their used stuff. I can usually spot several great deals on there at any given time.
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Jun 10, 2015 15:18
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DandyLion posted:I would recommend considering used equipment if cost is a major factor in your decisions. Another question, where can one go to try to find lessons? I've tried Google without much success, so I was wondering if there were any better resources.
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Jun 10, 2015 21:32
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I'm assuming you're looking for historical fencing lessons. This site should be a fairly comprehensive list of active HEMA (historical European martial arts) clubs by area, which should help you get started. Also, if you like swords (and who doesn't!) do stop by the fencing thread too.
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Jun 10, 2015 22:35
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i think my favorite thing about historical reenactments is seeing people dressed in period garb eating poo poo like tacos or burgers and talking on cellphones.
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Jun 11, 2015 03:21
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