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Cirina posted:The azem crystal and its summoning spell suck and I hope they both stop showing up in Dawntrail. We don't need an explanation for why duty finder is a thing and their new obsession with explaining it that started in Shadowbringers is the worst. It's cool and good and their 'obsession' with explaining that goes back way longer and mostly as a reaction to constantly being asked about it. It also helps reign in some of the "The WoL is super strong strongest there is and could 1 v 100000000 everything in existence" when they make it canon you're working with friends basically all the time.
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Oct 9, 2023 00:28
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:It's cool and good and their 'obsession' with explaining that goes back way longer and mostly as a reaction to constantly being asked about it. It only really started in Shadowbringers with G'raha's summoning, the examples you're probably thinking of in Stormblood like with Susano's random fishing buddies were both clearly jokes and also only existed in the english text, not in any of the other languages.
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Oct 9, 2023 00:29
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Nessus posted:I don't know if there's a term for it exactly but there seems to be a kind of 'reverse chosen one' thing where people seek out being the most generic and boring thing possible in the confines of a secondary world. I've seen it in a range of RPG spaces. Might just be a common reaction to lousy chosen-one stuff. I think this is actually something you see a lot of in MMOs, and is probably a good instinct: everyone going around and being big-dick heroes is very boring and often very obstructive, you need people building out different levels of it all. And FFXIV is actually a great example of how that can be fun, the crafting and gathering quests do a great job of showing that the people going off and stabbing monsters in the face aren't the only people that can have interesting stories.
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Oct 9, 2023 00:31
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Cirina posted:It only really started in Shadowbringers with G'raha's summoning, the examples you're probably thinking of in Stormblood like with Susano's random fishing buddies were both clearly jokes and also only existed in the english text, not in any of the other languages. Instead, the other languages just imply that the WoL isn't alone and refers to them in the plural. All English did was highlight it in a jokey manner. ブンチンの協力を得て、コウジン族の宝物殿に入った冒険者たち。予想外にも、豪神スサノオが召喚されてしまった。紅玉海のタカラモチの棲処にある「」を調べよう。
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Oct 9, 2023 00:56
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My WoL is in fact Goku, which is why I chose monk, so as far as I'm concerned I am the strongest and I alone am best and I'd really wish all these npcs would stop lotting on MY gear in dungeons
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Oct 9, 2023 00:57
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I think a lot of people tend to get the cause and effect backwards. You are not a great adventurer because you are Azem, you are Azem because you're a great adventurer. That's the entire point of what Azem is, it's basically the "we want an adventurer" seat and goes to the person most fit for that role. Likewise you're not the WoL because you are Azem, you're the WoL because you are an adventurer. All Azem does is clarify that some part of you was always an adventurer. That this is who you are, as a person. And I can understand getting annoyed at some bit of characterization being forced onto you, but the honest truth is that FFXIV is built upon the absolute basic concept that you are an adventurer. You wanted to be an adventurer. You chose to an adventurer. You, the player, can decide if it was for noble goals or because you liked excitement or because it was profitable, but it was why you began all of this in the first place. And one of the very first things you do is join a guild of adventurers who all want to adventure together. Everything you have boils down to that. The Azem Crystal, at the end of the day, is a giant neon beacon going "Hey dudes, who wants to have a FUCKIN' COOL ADVENTURE?!" Having fun adventures is your character's entire reason for being and no matter how much you want to justify them otherwise that is who they are. Even if you want to be a chef in Eorzea, the story makes it clear you are someone who goes on great adventures to find rare ingredients. If you want to be a fisherman than your story will eventually take you to the end of the universe because it is where the rarest fish in existence are. That is even the entire point of the Zenos thing at the end. Zenos recognizes you not as someone who is out for a fight but someone who is out for an adventure. That might include fighting or it might be a side effect of what you really want and you can decide that. But you're not a normal person who wants a quiet content life. You're an adventurer.
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Oct 9, 2023 01:16
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Really, the only part of the Azem plot that struck me personally as troublesome characterization for my WoL was the closeness with Hades, but even that I can silo into "that was her Ancient self, not anything current." (I'm also in the minority here!)
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Oct 9, 2023 01:21
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There's also nothing within the text that says that the Ancients were sundered into 14 exact versions. Maybe there just happens to be 24 people who happened to inherit a piece of Azem on the Source running around. It's just our particular WoL that Emet noted it in.
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Oct 9, 2023 01:28
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The Azem crystal kicks rear end.
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Oct 9, 2023 01:30
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Endwalker had Graha give a big theory on how shards of ancients maintain some general personality or like intention from their original which is why Amon is depressed. WoL inherited 'being an adventurer'.
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Oct 9, 2023 01:38
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Antivehicular posted:Really, the only part of the Azem plot that struck me personally as troublesome characterization for my WoL was the closeness with Hades, but even that I can silo into "that was her Ancient self, not anything current." (I'm also in the minority here!) In real life I had terrible and regrettable taste in friends when I was younger, I can only assume that a version of me from uncountable past lives and twelve thousand years ago would've had extremely objectionable taste in friends. Expecting me to hold to the terrible judgement calls of who this past version of me considered worth hanging out with as a person? That's not gonna fly with me, I can see in the present day that this person sucks.
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Oct 9, 2023 01:45
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I think one of the reasons for the Elpis section is so that you get time to be buds with Hades and Hyth as yourself and build a connection there, not just because he's thinking of his old flame the whole time.
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Oct 9, 2023 01:49
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Since I was the one who kicked this off, I feel I should clarify. I don't care about the WoL being a special boy or one of many, I care that every trial now involves them stealing the spotlight from the boss who's got their only chance to show off. Compare: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnmXeIyyvsg 35 seconds, you spend a little time in the shot but mainly to have Titan towering over you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnOKdmAcSP0 First 30 seconds. It's all Nidhogg, and the last shot before whiteout is them facing right at the camera doing an action pose. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edpn4JbdBmg 45 second intro, all Susano https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoybL0KJXqM 25 second intro. You still get to end in the boss doing an action pose, but 2/3 of the intro is spent focusing on you instead of them and then they have to squeeze in. No chance to show off. And it's the same 15 seconds we had for Rubicante (well, his was ~7, they gave him some more screen time), Barbariccia, Endsinger... they all have to work in you gazing angrily as people appear. Maybe I'm the only person this annoys, it's not a dealbreaker or anything, I just want to make clear what bugs me.
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Oct 9, 2023 01:51
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My WoL inherited being a drat weirdo from Azem. Like the whole bit in Elpis is they assume you're something Azem sent over which I take to mean Azem is just constantly making weird lil fellas like some kinda mad scientist. Or else they're very fond of pranks.
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Oct 9, 2023 01:52
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Azem chooses all the jokey dialogue options. All the other Ancients loving hate it, but no one can stop them.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:00
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SyntheticPolygon posted:I think one of the reasons for the Elpis section is so that you get time to be buds with Hades and Hyth as yourself and build a connection there, not just because he's thinking of his old flame the whole time. It made me hate them more (or hate them at all in the case of Hyth, I actually kinda liked Fake Hyth), so mission failed, but that's a me problem.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:10
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Maxwell Lord posted:This is why I favor the idea that the images that people have of the gods will live even as the Ancients who made them up have finally passed on. Like right now they're still a little formless because their forms just went into the sea (well most of them), but because people still worship the Twelve, those orbs we saw will again take on a certain shape- maybe not exactly the same as they were the first time, but still The Navigator, The Fury, etc. Yeah this is my reading as well This incarnation of the Twelve has moved on. But because the mechanisms are still in place inevitably new incarnations will rise up. Dr Pepper fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 02:12
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Cleretic posted:It made me hate them more (or hate them at all in the case of Hyth, I actually kinda liked Fake Hyth), so mission failed, but that's a me problem. Ok
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Oct 9, 2023 02:18
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Dr Pepper posted:Yeah this is my reading as well I really like this take and the one you quoted! I thought about something though, was Dalamud in any of the scenes with the gods this patch? Did Menphina have to leave him behind because he wasn't an Ancient, but a total creation of faith? Or did I completely block him out for some reason
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Oct 9, 2023 02:23
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I think Dalamud is incorporated into Eulogia's design in some way? Which would answer that
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Oct 9, 2023 02:24
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Arist posted:I think Dalamud is incorporated into Eulogia's design in some way? Which would answer that There's a wolf face on their chest, yeah.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:27
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lines posted:I look on it a different way: I view them as the same character but I have different canons for them depending on whether I want them to be the WoL or not. I'm also in the crowd that compartmentalizes my character into two different "versions" of them, for the "my canon" version of the character, and the "MSQ" version of the character, who ends up doing all the stuff in the MSQ. That one can get a little weird sometimes due to him literally not being from Etheirys at all - this is the same character I've mentioned before over in the New Players thread who is a literal WoW refugee, I play him as being literally the same character from Azeroth, and he ended up in Etheirys not entirely by choice, but because I've sort of... organically ended up writing him into a trend of stumbling between worlds. Started with just dropping him into an RP that was explicitly designed to be a meeting place between all sorts of different settings so characters from different genres could meet and chat and get into shenanigans. But end result, dude not from Etheirys gets mixed up in the FF14 MSQ, and gets treated like a reincarnation of Azem. On the rare occasion where I need to mingle the two different "versions" of Jon, my canon version and the MSQ version, I basically handwave it as him being shown 1.0-echo-style visions of the MSQ events with him slotted in as the WoL. He's not, but if I need to explain Jon's presence in the MSQ, that's how I do it; he's not ACTUALLY the WoL, but he's experienced this stuff through weird flashback visions and he has no idea why he's having those. When I don't need to acknowledge that though, that all goes out the window and he's just his canon self, existing in a new world that isn't home, but he's getting used to it. He does a decent job not bringing up his origins, but once in a while he slips something minor; thankfully most people who don't already know wouldn't catch or understand most of said slip-ups. Kyrosiris posted:There's a wolf face on their chest, yeah. With a moustache!
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Oct 9, 2023 02:32
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Bruceski posted:Since I was the one who kicked this off, I feel I should clarify. I don't care about the WoL being a special boy or one of many, I care that every trial now involves them stealing the spotlight from the boss who's got their only chance to show off. Compare:
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Oct 9, 2023 02:42
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Cirina posted:The azem crystal and its summoning spell suck and I hope they both stop showing up in Dawntrail. We don't need an explanation for why duty finder is a thing and their new obsession with explaining it that started in Shadowbringers is the worst. This extends to poo poo like 'oh I can just create 7 illusion copies of you that are just as strong wrong
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Oct 9, 2023 02:44
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' from pandaemonium too.
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I hope we use it for some completely mundane reason like we're trying to go out for drinks but Thancred's running behind so we summon him to the bar.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:46
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Urianger gets the crystal and summons 7 tiki drinks.
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Oct 9, 2023 02:47
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Arist posted:I think Dalamud is incorporated into Eulogia's design in some way? Which would answer that Kyrosiris posted:There's a wolf face on their chest, yeah. Wooord, ty!
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Oct 9, 2023 02:53
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ImpAtom posted:The entire boss fight is the boss' chance to show off. They have if anything been playing up the boss getting cool moments with in fight cutscenes, like Barb's transformation Also I think they've been amping up the pre-fight appearances, too. Zeromus' first scene in the 'ugly body horror' form is basically an extended version of the fight intro.
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Oct 9, 2023 03:00
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:I hope we use it for some completely mundane reason like we're trying to go out for drinks but Thancred's running behind so we summon him to the bar. Summoning 7 people just to hype me up for this solo duty.
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Oct 9, 2023 05:10
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Gotta say, I do hope they Finish the Job, as it were, and go back to add Duty Support to MSQ Trials as well, though at that point it's a question of what sort of allies we'll get. Mostly (if not all) generics I'm sure, but it's mainly a question of what classes and jobs' worth of generics they'll give us.
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Oct 9, 2023 05:20
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:I hope we use it for some completely mundane reason like we're trying to go out for drinks but Thancred's running behind so we summon him to the bar. Using the Azem crystal as an intercontinental ballistic Rescue just to see if it works that way
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Oct 9, 2023 05:30
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It'd have to be generics since every single trial is written around to make sure no named NPCs could possibly be there to help you
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Oct 9, 2023 05:30
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Kazinsal posted:Using the Azem crystal as an intercontinental ballistic Rescue just to see if it works that way Give it to Y'shtola so she can summon seven nerds from across space and time and get research done eight times as fast.
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Oct 9, 2023 05:34
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Kyrosiris posted:I dunno, I like that it's just Oschon/Derek that stays. It really speaks to his character as the one that wandered amongst mankind, and having such an emotional tie that he couldn't bear to go on without one last lifetime among us. I think the latter part is something where I kind of bristle at it. Saying "your faith is important" feels fundamentally incompatible with "we know it is factually untrue" and is even, well, disrespectful to usurp it towards the more enlightened secular interests of those In the Know? This is why I like Lord and ImpAtom's takes. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 06:16
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TheWorldsaStage posted:I really like this take and the one you quoted! I thought about something though, was Dalamud in any of the scenes with the gods this patch? Did Menphina have to leave him behind because he wasn't an Ancient, but a total creation of faith? Or did I completely block him out for some reason Arist posted:I think Dalamud is incorporated into Eulogia's design in some way? Which would answer that Kyrosiris posted:There's a wolf face on their chest, yeah. Not only that, in the cutscene where they merge together they show Menphina being carried by Dalamud, like she is during her fight. Cleretic posted:Also I think they've been amping up the pre-fight appearances, too. Zeromus' first scene in the 'ugly body horror' form is basically an extended version of the fight intro. Yeah, that's my feel too. They've been moving those moments to before the Trial, rather than inside it. Blockhouse posted:It'd have to be generics since every single trial is written around to make sure no named NPCs could possibly be there to help you So were the dungeons, but they've rewritten all of the HW and StB bits so that the Scions and Friends can come along with the WoL instead.
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Oct 9, 2023 06:23
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I appreciate that they didn't change the part of HW where Alphinaud asks to go with you to the Aery and Estinien responds with "no way in hell, you're a child." And sure enough, you don't get him as a Duty Support option!
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Oct 9, 2023 06:31
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how does the Nidhogg fight change if you have Estinien as a trust?
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Oct 9, 2023 06:33
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Onean posted:So were the dungeons, but they've rewritten all of the HW and StB bits so that the Scions and Friends can come along with the WoL instead. I should mention that even though I say this, there are some Trials where a rewrite would be significantly more difficult, if not impossible. Most of the impossible ones are post-Azem crystal, so there's no need there, but there's still stuff like Susano where there's only three of us there plus the potential risk of tempering, so some generic fill-ins are needed. YoshiP did say that they've improved the Trust system even further with DT, allowing them to do stuff they're excited to show off. The last time he said that we had the Scions join us in fighting Hydaelyn, so I'm curious what they've got planned. Onean fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Oct 9, 2023 |
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Oct 9, 2023 06:38
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Blockhouse posted:It'd have to be generics since every single trial is written around to make sure no named NPCs could possibly be there to help you Onean posted:So were the dungeons, but they've rewritten all of the HW and StB bits so that the Scions and Friends can come along with the WoL instead. Oh, I'm under no illusions that we'd get anything but generics in the MSQ Trials. Before Shadowbringers, the Trials are almost all Primals who present risk of Tempering, so the Scions can't help there. In Shadowbringers, we actually straight up don't have enough Scions to fill the group in a Trial fight for Titania, so why even bother re-writing that. Vauthry, again not enough Scions to fill the Trial group, and they'd have to not just re-write, but cut out an entire scene. Then starting with Hades, we have the summoned allies for every Trial thereafter; initially with G'raha summoning them, then us via Azem's crystal. Edit: Onean posted:YoshiP did say that they've improved the Trust system even further with DT, allowing them to do stuff they're excited to show off. The last time he said that we had the Scions join us in fighting Hydaelyn, so I'm curious what they've got planned. One thing one of my friends has been aching for is the option to do Duty Support with 2 players, and have the NPCs fill in the missing slots instead of it being *purely* solo mode. Chances are slim, but we can dream.
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Oct 9, 2023 06:43
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As a connoisseur of toku culture, the WoL pulling out a little tchotchke to activate their powers in a climactic moment is in my opinion sick as hell
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Oct 9, 2023 06:48
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