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Nope, all details of the WoL as a person are up to you.
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Apr 22, 2021 17:51
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Zodiark killed less people than Hydaelin, factual statement.
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Apr 22, 2021 17:56
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Waffleman_ posted:Nope, all details of the WoL as a person are up to you. Strange that the WoL is a war robot that was sent back in time from the future to protect the parents of some future savior: Alphinaud and Estinien. Impeccable fashion taste, though.
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Apr 22, 2021 18:04
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Whether or not Hydaelyn killed people depends on how you view existential questions like the transporter malfunction and mental forking. She divided people into 14 versions of themselves, but I imagine to each the only major difference was that certain metaphysical elements they were not keenly aware of were weaker.
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Apr 22, 2021 18:05
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Ironslave posted:Whether or not Hydaelyn killed people depends on how you view existential questions like the transporter malfunction and mental forking. She divided people into 14 versions of themselves, but I imagine to each the only major difference was that certain metaphysical elements they were not keenly aware of were weaker. That is explicitly death and reincarnation.
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Apr 22, 2021 18:06
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Cleretic posted:First of all you are using that last argument against the wrong person, because my response to 'Azem is dead' is 'good riddance'. None of these are cases that Hydaelin didn't kill everyone but just that it was a neccessary sacrifice, which is exactly the same rhetoric of the Ascians :P Orcs and Ostriches posted:For all we know, the sundering turned 1 world and X ancients into 14 worlds and 14X beings in an instant, no deaths. There could have been 14 weak Azems running around, hanging out with 14 weak Hythlodaeuses. We don't know that it was some life scouring event, only populated millennia later as new life developed from the aetherial residue of the former. None of the worlds seem to have been exact replicas of the source world, thus why only the First has Amaurot on it and generally follows from idea of the Source being split by diffracting light, so as a very best-case scenario the new beings created by Hydaelin's attack would only have a very partial recollection of their previous existences. Really I think Hydaelin just gets a pass because she's the WoL's patron and coded as a benevolent mother figure, but knowing what actually went down now it seems pretty clear the creation of both entities was a mistake an they both need to go in the bin. Everyone on the Source died because no one wanted to join Azem's PF group and resorted to different flavours of planetary genocide instead.
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Apr 22, 2021 18:11
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Groggy nard posted:That is explicitly death and reincarnation. But there's no death in that situation. It's more like mitosis.
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Apr 22, 2021 18:11
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jokes posted:Is there a canonical age of the WoL? I'd imagine not but if Azem keeps getting reincarnated to be a goody goody adventurer/cop/soldier/chef/carpenter, it's likely that only the past up to 100 years have been during the WoL's iteration of Azem. Groggy nard posted:That is explicitly death and reincarnation.
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Apr 22, 2021 18:11
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How many people she killed has nothing to do with her being evil or not either.
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Apr 22, 2021 18:11
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Except it isn't death and reincarnation. The game very much paints what Hydaelyn does as a dividing--the ruins of Amaurot existed on the First because they exist everywhere. If she strikes you, there are now two of you less-puissant than before. She did not kill everyone unless you define that act as a death which is up for existential debate.
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Apr 22, 2021 18:12
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multijoe posted:None of the worlds seem to have been exact replicas of the source world, thus why only the First has Amaurot on it and generally follows from idea of the Source being split by diffracting light, so as a very best-case scenario the new beings created by Hydaelin's attack would only have a very partial recollection of their previous existences. I thought it was explained in Shadowbringers that the first has the ruins of Amarout on it because it wasn't riddled in world changing calamities like the source was. They're probably still down there, buried under water off the coast of La Noscea if one would go looking.
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Apr 22, 2021 18:15
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jokes posted:Is there a canonical age of the WoL? I'd imagine not but if Azem keeps getting reincarnated to be a goody goody adventurer/cop/soldier/chef/carpenter, it's likely that only the past up to 100 years have been during the WoL's iteration of Azem. The only things we know about the WoL is that they appear to not be native to Eorzea, they came from somewhere else, and they had a friend who drowned when they were young. And this may be the original thing which set them on their current path. The most recent, likely previous incarnation of the played character that we're aware of was Tenzen. We aren't sure how long people sit in the lifestream before their souls are recycled.
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Apr 22, 2021 18:16
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:I thought it was explained in Shadowbringers that the first has the ruins of Amarout on it because it wasn't riddled in world changing calamities like the source was. They're probably still down there, buried under water off the coast of La Noscea if one would go looking. This is the explicit explanation that the Scions arrive at, yes. That the ruins of Amaurot would exist on every world, and aren't found in the Source because the constant Calamities likely eradicated all trace of them.
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Apr 22, 2021 18:16
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Gearhead posted:they had a friend who drowned when they were young. This is the first I've seen of that. Where does that come up?
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Apr 22, 2021 18:19
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We've only had any real point of comparison between the First and the Source - we've seen bits of the Thirteenth but it's hard to say if World of Darkness is meant to map to any particular equivalent spot and given its issues there may or may not be anything left of the original landscape.
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Apr 22, 2021 18:19
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Gearhead posted:The only things we know about the WoL is that they appear to not be native to Eorzea, they came from somewhere else, and they had a friend who drowned when they were young. And this may be the original thing which set them on their current path. Where's the drowned friend thing come from?
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Apr 22, 2021 18:22
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Farg posted:Where's the drowned friend thing come from? Someone heard their friend complaining about getting knocked off the boat a lot in Leviathan EX and decided to sign up for the game, and thus another WoL started their adventure.
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Apr 22, 2021 18:28
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Okay, fair enough on the existence of Amaurot, but in general the worlds seem to have greatly diverged from each other which strongly point to each of the diffracted worlds not being exact copies of the Source with lower power levels
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Apr 22, 2021 18:37
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Farg posted:Where's the drowned friend thing come from? Orcs and Ostriches posted:This is the first I've seen of that. Where does that come up? DRK quest, just as you start to realize that Fray is actually your dark side, Fray starts ranting about how they always hated the sea because it reminded them of someone they lost when they were younger.
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Apr 22, 2021 18:39
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Gearhead posted:DRK quest, just as you start to realize that Fray is actually your dark side, Fray starts ranting about how they always hated the sea because it reminded them of someone they lost when they were younger. Yeah, that rings a bell. Neat touch.
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Apr 22, 2021 18:41
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Yeah, that rings a bell. Neat touch. Reasoning that the DRK writer has been the main scenario writer for Shadowbringers and Endwalker, looking at where Fray's mask slips may be extremely important. Fray's 'Giving Voice to the Voiceless.' line in the lv 80 capstone for DRK is particularly clever. Gearhead fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Apr 22, 2021 |
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Apr 22, 2021 18:43
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multijoe posted:Okay, fair enough on the existence of Amaurot, but in general the worlds seem to have greatly diverged from each other which strongly point to each of the diffracted worlds not being exact copies of the Source with lower power levels For all we know, the shards only diverged from each other when the Ascians started meddling.
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Apr 22, 2021 18:48
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Gearhead posted:DRK quest, just as you start to realize that Fray is actually your dark side, Fray starts ranting about how they always hated the sea because it reminded them of someone they lost when they were younger. If your referring to the 45 quest, the friend he's referring to is yourself, and the incident is when you fought Leviathan
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Apr 22, 2021 18:49
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Farg posted:If your referring to the 45 quest, the friend he's referring to is yourself, and the incident is when you fought Leviathan Are you sure about that, though?
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Apr 22, 2021 18:50
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Zack Ater posted:For all we know, the shards only diverged from each other when the Ascians started meddling. They also probably diverged due to the butterfly effect or whatever you want to call it. Like Novrandt physically is literally Eorzea but with different civilizations and some localized differences (such as Ill Mheg not being covered in snow because Bahamut, and Lakeland being less full of weird storms because no Silvertear). If you take into account the Sundering took place several thousands of years ago, no wonder the Source and the Shards divereged. Huh, now I'm wondering if the World of Darkness is actually mapped to somewhere in the source. All we can see is it's in a mountain somewhere, and that is suppossing the Flood of Darkness didn't destroy the land outright.
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Apr 22, 2021 18:59
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multijoe posted:Okay, fair enough on the existence of Amaurot, but in general the worlds seem to have greatly diverged from each other which strongly point to each of the diffracted worlds not being exact copies of the Source with lower power levels Now they aren't. FFXIV doesn't seem to subscribe to determinism, and even if it did it has mentioned that where the worlds "fall" cosmically determines what way their aether predilections are tilted towards, such as how the First has a tremendously difficult time summoning Voidsent. The implication is that at the sundering they were copies, direct divisions of the original world, but time and these differences in placement have caused them to become their own things--hence why geography isn't different, but people who exist in the Source don't inherently exist on the First outside of direct callbacks and jokes.
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Apr 22, 2021 19:07
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:They also probably diverged due to the butterfly effect or whatever you want to call it. Like Novrandt physically is literally Eorzea but with different civilizations and some localized differences (such as Ill Mheg not being covered in snow because Bahamut, and Lakeland being less full of weird storms because no Silvertear). If you take into account the Sundering took place several thousands of years ago, no wonder the Source and the Shards divereged. Considering Mt Gulg, my suspicion is that the origins of the Cloud of Darkness are very similar to Innocence, just under much less controlled conditions.
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Apr 22, 2021 19:07
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I'm fairly certain Hydaelyn sundering the world was an unintentional side effect of her attack on Zodiark. Like IIRC in Shadowbringers it's stated that she struck with such force against him that it broke the world.
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Apr 22, 2021 19:10
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erenoyo posted:I'm fairly certain Hydaelyn sundering the world was an unintentional side effect of her attack on Zodiark. Like IIRC in Shadowbringers it's stated that she struck with such force against him that it broke the world.
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Apr 22, 2021 19:15
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Hydaelyn is the singer of "Answers" and "Dragonsong," which probably gives us an idea of what her general outlook is like.
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Apr 22, 2021 19:21
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Cleretic posted:First of all you are using that last argument against the wrong person, because my response to 'Azem is dead' is 'good riddance'. Ok I just don't get this degree of antipathy and it frankly comes off as motivated reasoning? Like you're so mad that Emet-Selch matches a profile you've decided is abusive shitbag that you condemn the entire Amaurotine civilization and everyone in it with "Good riddance that that entire lost civilization was annihilated"? And actively want them to have Gone Too Far We Am Play Gods as the reason for their downfall? Why?
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Apr 22, 2021 19:32
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Jetrauben posted:Like you're so mad that Emet-Selch matches a profile you've decided is abusive shitbag that you condemn the entire Amaurotine civilization and everyone in it with "Good riddance that that entire lost civilization was annihilated"? Is it really so strange when they were just as eager to do that to all life that wasn't themselves, Venat and co excluded?
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Apr 22, 2021 19:34
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Farg posted:If your referring to the 45 quest, the friend he's referring to is yourself, and the incident is when you fought Leviathan I thought he was referring to the dumbass pubbie who always falls off the side in Leviathan.
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Apr 22, 2021 19:34
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Kyrosiris posted:Is it really so strange when they were just as eager to do that to all life that wasn't themselves, Venat and co excluded? I'm pretty sure that the only way the game's sympathy for the Amaurotine faction makes sense is if they were referring to the engendered non-sapient life rather than sapients. The game's emotional signals don't make any sense if you view the Amaurotines as willing to annihilate everyone that isn't themselves in the Ancient world, and Venat and co explicitly understand and feel no actual hatred for the Convocation faction of the sort that would be expected if it was that degree of pressing moral sin. They just don't trust Zodiark's influence and think there needed to be a counterbalance. Hell the likely intent was for the engendered life not to have souls, and their having them being a total accident; that seems the entire point of the vignette in Hades' story where he has to mercy-kill a maddened phoenix that accidentally got a true soul. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Apr 22, 2021 |
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Apr 22, 2021 19:39
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Kyrosiris posted:Is it really so strange when they were just as eager to do that to all life that wasn't themselves, Venat and co excluded? To be fair that was like 8 people.
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Apr 22, 2021 19:39
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Jetrauben posted:I'm pretty sure that the only way the game's sympathy for the Amaurotine faction makes sense is if they were referring to the engendered non-sapient life rather than sapients. The game's emotional signals don't make any sense if you view the Amaurotines as willing to annihilate everyone that isn't themselves in the Ancient world, and Venat and co explicitly understand and feel no actual hatred for the Convocation faction of the sort that would be expected if it was that degree of pressing moral sin. They just don't trust Zodiark's influence and think there needed to be a counterbalance.
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Apr 22, 2021 19:51
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Nessus posted:I figured the sympathy for the "Amaurotine" civilization is that they didn't cause this problem, they were responding to a disaster the best way they knew how, and as far as they could tell that disaster wasn't just going to kill some folks, it was going to destroy their entire planet. So they summoned Zodiark. If I recall they had to do this a couple of times, sacrificing much of their own team each time. At this point that civilization had been sacrificed even if there were some immortal wizard survivors. Yeah, the first summoning is an understandable action under extreme duress. I don't think anyone's calling that out. It's the follow-up that is the "whoa, hold on a sec" part, and where my sympathy starts slipping fast. Jetrauben posted:The game's emotional signals don't make any sense if you view the Amaurotines as willing to annihilate everyone that isn't themselves in the Ancient world I will admit that the view is somewhat through the lens of Emet-Selch As We Know Him. I get that his disdain for sundered life is a mask and a shield now, but I can't help but wonder how much of that has always been around. It's hard to say, and frankly there's not enough points in his favor for me to give him the benefit of the doubt. v  v
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Apr 22, 2021 19:59
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I just realized that you could make a decent comparison between Amaurot and Brandon Sanderson’s Elantris. Though I guess Elantris would more closely parallel Dark Souls.
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Apr 22, 2021 20:03
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Kyrosiris posted:Yeah, the first summoning is an understandable action under extreme duress. I don't think anyone's calling that out. I guess that's the point of contention here - how much one believes Emet-Selch's bitterness and trauma has reshaped his personality vs believing he was basically always a cryptofascist in disguise. I just don't really think the emotional language works if we don't accept the game's premise that Hades was, at his core, a basically good man prior to all this poo poo going down. I mean even when he didn't have to, Hades (in his various guises) not only sponsored imperialist murder-empires but also empires of remarkable prosperity and creative freedom. Allag was both a monstrous expansionist hell-empire built on an escalating cycle of moral crimes and a prosperous and decadent height of human prosperity, it contains multitudes.
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Apr 22, 2021 20:19
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Jetrauben posted:I guess that's the point of contention here - how much one believes Emet-Selch's bitterness and trauma has reshaped his personality vs believing he was basically always a cryptofascist in disguise. I just don't really think the emotional language works if we don't accept the game's premise that Hades was, at his core, a basically good man prior to all this poo poo going down.
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Apr 22, 2021 20:52
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