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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Can you give some examples that aren't "Hitler was in fact bad"-tier? Political gridlock in the USA as a "for instance". For example it seems very nuanced and there are a lot of existing norms about how we cannot do certain things, less they lead to worse outcomes further down the road. However the idea of there even being a "futher down the road" relies upon shattering the kneecaps of any fucker who thinks that human life should be considered secondary to preserving existing norms. Alongside that you have things like worker ownership of industries. There seem to be arguments about efficiency and so on, but I do not think they fundamentally matter in the same way that making sure people are safe and fed the world over matter. As a more philosophical question I'd say the "save a priceless artwork or a person" question always comes down to saving the person. Human life is more valuable than stuff. Josef bugman has a new favorite as of 20:04 on Jul 31, 2021 |
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Jul 31, 2021 20:00
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What if that person was baby Hitler and the piece of art was Final Fantasy 7
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Jul 31, 2021 20:12
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Josef bugman posted:Political gridlock in the USA as a "for instance". For example it seems very nuanced and there are a lot of existing norms about how we cannot do certain things, less they lead to worse outcomes further down the road. However the idea of there even being a "futher down the road" relies upon shattering the kneecaps of any fucker who thinks that human life should be considered secondary to preserving existing norms. These examples are higher level and broader in scale than what your general supposition is though. Like, I agree that an international emergency council for "Crimes Against The Ecosystem" should be set up, and I honestly think that the first act should be to gut Exxon, BP, etc. and so on, and redistribute their money while shoving the top tiers of power over those companies straight into Guantanamo. At the same time, you can't deal with a lot of small-world stuff with this same attitude (Like, the stuff that the thread was talking about before you posted that take). Not to mention, in many cases the power politics is messy as hell, and denying that is exactly why the USSR ended up as State Capitalism and countless other revolutions have collapsed or expired. Revolutions cause people to start hoarding because of the inherent instability, you can't force people to suddenly change centuries of learned culture overnight, and that culture will still bleed into any new systems you create. And the fact of the matter is that as a disabled person, I honestly dont think I or anyone else I know would survive a revolutionary effort despite it having a better chance at continuing the human race than any reformist efforts. alexandriao has a new favorite as of 20:16 on Jul 31, 2021 |
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Jul 31, 2021 20:13
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Josef bugman posted:Not really. Most problems are black and whtie. It's simply that to do what is neccesary in those instances would upset a lot of people who've invested time and energy into defending a structure that is pretty much rotten from the inside out because "it's the best we can do". The idea that we must reduce everything to nuance and argumentation is just another way of avoiding interaction with the world where things can change in an instant. FYI believing that all moral issues are black and white is a symptom in many mental illnesses, including depression. The term used for this in psychology is 'splitting'.
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Jul 31, 2021 20:13
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silence_kit posted:FYI believing that all moral issues are black and white is a symptom in many mental illnesses, including depression. The term used for this in psychology is 'splitting'. So what? The belief that your going to die and a lot of life is pointless busy work is a sign of mental ill health to, it's also a building block of existentialism. Just because something is associated with mental ill health doesn't mean it is axiomatically wrong. alexandriao posted:And the fact of the matter is that as a disabled person, I honestly dont think I or anyone else I know would survive a revolutionary effort despite it having a better chance at continuing the human race than any reformist efforts. That is fair enough, but it's still monumentally enraging when people at a lot more ease get all cross about things changing, rather than people from a view of difficulty. christmas boots posted:What if that person was baby Hitler and the piece of art was Final Fantasy 7 The person. even if it was grown Hitler and even if the work was Discworld. It'd be a loving struggle and I'd hate myself afterwards mark you.
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Jul 31, 2021 20:33
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alexandriao posted:And the fact of the matter is that as a disabled person, I honestly dont think I or anyone else I know would survive a revolutionary effort despite it having a better chance at continuing the human race than any reformist efforts. Yeah a lot of internet revolutionaries seem to be perfectly fine with death, since its just gonna be the disenfranchised who would die in said revolution. Not anyone they care about.
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Jul 31, 2021 20:50
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Fashionable Jorts posted:Yeah a lot of internet revolutionaries seem to be perfectly fine with death, since its just gonna be the disenfranchised who would die in said revolution. Not anyone they care about. Yeah, these are the same people who are having hundred-page facebook comments arguments about stalin versus trotsky. People who have read volumes upon volumes of Hegel and Stalin and Lenin and Rosenburg, not actually doing anything but arguing. An utter waste of space and a disappointment to any revolutionary efforts. Since I hooked up to the local trans groups, I'm increasingly of the opinion that local reformism and mutual aid groups are the way forward for revolutionary movements. The black panther party knew what was up when they set up community initiatives by which they could educate the local community to provide for themselves and take care of themselves -- the fact that those initiatives are still running well half a century after most of those people were jailed or killed is a testament to the power in community organization.
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Jul 31, 2021 21:06
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Nostalgia is good when it's just remembering cool poo poo like Old Pokemon and Ed,Edd, and Eddy. This cynical marketing ploy bullshit, and the endless chasing of childhood by people too afraid to grow up is what kills the concept.
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Jul 31, 2021 21:07
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Discworld is severely overrated and the "what if thing but with magic" books are the worst of the bunch
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Jul 31, 2021 21:15
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Nostalgia rules. Me and my buddies just had an SNES weekend were we played through all of Super Mario World together. No wives, no girlfriends. Just the four of us in my buddy's basement for the weekend like when we were teenagers. I think people don't like marketing that plays to nostalgia. If you can't separate something like that night from Coca Cola trying to play up the 80's and 90's to sell more sugar water then I don't know what to tell you.
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Jul 31, 2021 21:16
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C’mon, you’d save adult Hitler? You know he was the Holocaust guy right? I mean I agree that that ones a black and white choice but I think we diverge sharply after that
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Jul 31, 2021 21:36
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Even if you did save him you know 100% some government (or individual) would have put him to death almost immediately after capture anyway so what exactly are you even accomplishing? Just making yourself feel noble or whatever?
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Jul 31, 2021 21:55
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christmas boots posted:C’mon, you’d save adult Hitler? You know he was the Holocaust guy right? I mean I agree that that ones a black and white choice but I think we diverge sharply after that Yes. Human life is more important than even the best art. I'd kill him afterwards myself, but that'd be on me making a choice. yeah I eat rear end posted:Even if you did save him you know 100% some government (or individual) would have put him to death almost immediately after capture anyway so what exactly are you even accomplishing? Just making yourself feel noble or whatever? Making the choice itself. There may well be reasonings one can apply, but certain things have to stand true across all the choices we make.
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Jul 31, 2021 21:58
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So human life must be protected at all costs, except for if it's you personally choosing to kill them. Got it.
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Jul 31, 2021 22:00
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alexandriao posted:Yeah, these are the same people who are having hundred-page facebook comments arguments about stalin versus trotsky. People who have read volumes upon volumes of Hegel and Stalin and Lenin and Rosenburg, not actually doing anything but arguing. An utter waste of space and a disappointment to any revolutionary efforts. Lol yup, by donating a can of soup to someone in need, you've done more for the world than every leftist nerd who reads theory and gets big mad online.
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Jul 31, 2021 22:06
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yeah I eat rear end posted:So human life must be protected at all costs, except for if it's you personally choosing to kill them. Got it. Yes? Why is that weird? If your making the choice to do so then your making that choice. Human life and dignity, both in general and in specific, should be protected. However in order to do that there may be occasions that require stopping someone else. But choosing to value all life whilst still knowing you may have to make a different choice seems like an obvious option. "oh but we have to save [mona lisa] over [person]" is completely different from "we have to save [person in need of help] from [oppressor]". One is a fight between people, one is an argument between people and things.
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Jul 31, 2021 22:08
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Josef bugman posted:Yes. Human life is more important than even the best art. I'd kill him afterwards myself, but that'd be on me making a choice. So either way you’ve still killed Hitler, but you’d destroy the art first to make a point?
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Jul 31, 2021 22:14
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wHATS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CHOOSING TO NOT SAVE HITLER OR CHOOSING TO KILL HITLER OH poo poo CAPSLOCK WAS ON
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Jul 31, 2021 22:16
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Really making me feel like I've got my life together because I wouldn't save Hitler over El Greco's View of Toledo.
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Jul 31, 2021 22:17
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There is no inherent value to life, especially human life Kill 'em all, like my grandma used to say
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Jul 31, 2021 22:19
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christmas boots posted:So either way you’ve still killed Hitler, but you’d destroy the art first to make a point? It's not destroying the art. It's saving another person. That person may be a profound poo poo. But the person matters more than the thing.
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Jul 31, 2021 22:22
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I think we're seeing a problem with the "world is black and white" mentality right here. If human life should be valued then it means all human life should be valued including adult Hitler. Claiming you'd kill him afterwards seems like another way to fit everything into the "black and white" viewpoint. You acknowledge that he's terrible and beyond redemption, but because you're forced to jam everything into two sets you're stuck saving him, losing art, and then killing him to justify the entire thing to yourself. Maybe I'm misreading it, but that's kinda how it's reading to me.
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Jul 31, 2021 22:23
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“Would you kill baby Hitler” arguments are tedious and boring, especially when nobody involved has ever killed a baby
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Jul 31, 2021 22:29
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Instead of baby hitler, consider watching this channel of trucks getting their roof's torn off from a small bridge https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXX0RWOIBjt4o3ziHu-6a5A
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Jul 31, 2021 22:33
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Josef bugman posted:It's not destroying the art. It's saving another person. That person may be a profound poo poo. But the person matters more than the thing. Saving a person that you just said you would then kill
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Jul 31, 2021 22:39
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christmas boots posted:Saving a person that you just said you would then kill Yes? But that is me making that choice to do so? I mean, if we are in that situation I probably hand them over to the authorities and get things done that way as opposed to otherwise. I am really stumped at the stumbling block here.
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Jul 31, 2021 22:42
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Hey I don't agree with you but I appreciate you sticking around and honestly defending what you say Me I just drop a hot take (that is 100% true) and jet
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Jul 31, 2021 22:43
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Josef bugman posted:Yes? But that is me making that choice to do so? I mean, if we are in that situation I probably hand them over to the authorities and get things done that way as opposed to otherwise. You’re making the choice either way, though. Agree to disagree I guess, I just can’t understand this binary thinking
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Jul 31, 2021 22:43
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christmas boots posted:You’re making the choice either way, though. Agree to disagree I guess, I just can’t understand this binary thinking That's fair, and I'm sorry I can't explain myself well enough! Thank you for listening! I don't like just saying something and then leaving, explanations of what and why and so on are good.
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Jul 31, 2021 23:02
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Josef bugman posted:It's not destroying the art. It's saving another person. That person may be a profound poo poo. But the person matters more than the thing. I don't know if you've read the Book of the New Sun, but it reminds me of it somehow. Most things do though. But if human life and it's preservation is of the utmost importance, what would you do in such a situation where you must condemn a portion of humanity to save the rest? Does your own compunction on killing prevent you from saving the greater number of future humans? Gene Wolfe explains the sort of extended trolley problem in much more depth and more concisely than I can. Really gives you something to think about in regards to human life, justice, and repentance.
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Jul 31, 2021 23:14
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It sounds interesting. I will have to look that up. I just don't like the "hard people making hard choices" idea is as it seems to really mean "bad people making choices that affect other people only".
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Jul 31, 2021 23:25
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That's what a government is.
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Jul 31, 2021 23:38
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Josef bugman posted:It sounds interesting. I will have to look that up. It very much is, one of the few works to really get me to recontextulize everything I experince. Along with Faust, Umineko no Naku Koro Ni, and the Phaedo. Also Augustine and his goddamn Peaches. Josef bugman posted:I just don't like the "hard people making hard choices" idea is as it seems to really mean "bad people making choices that affect other people only". I don't agree with your mentality, but this I can agree with. It disgust me to see all the people leaping to violence without regards to the people it will hurt, not just the victims, but all the bystanders caught in the crossfire. Robobot posted:That's what a government is. Sometimes this thread just makes me want to nonstop quote Deus Ex, this time I will refrain Robobot posted:That's what a government is. It's definitely interesting, Executioner's wore hoods to make their murder anonymous. Government in many ways operates the same, by couching everything in the collective you can justify nearly anything.
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Jul 31, 2021 23:49
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rain dogs posted:Discworld is severely overrated and the "what if thing but with magic" books are the worst of the bunch I loved those books as a young teenager and they made me more interested in humanism and literature more broadly, but I find it perplexing so many adults still bat so hard for them, they feel very much like books for young teens to me. That whole English fatalist writing style of juxtaposing the wacky with prosaic is really grating after a while (the grim reaper wants to go for a curry?!?! My sides!) . Pratchett is still better than Douglas Adams though, who wrote masturbation material for engineering students who want to give the impression of understanding Earth humour.
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Aug 1, 2021 00:24
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It's actually good and cool to kill nazis, adult or baby, time travel or not. Presumably eating another probe to say that Abba Kovner and Nakam were right to send those SS prisoners arsenic bread. The only regret a good person should have is that they didn't get more SS, maybe say six million or so. Nazis aren't people and Nakam was right. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 1, 2021 00:25
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Disco Pope posted:I loved those books as a young teenager and they made me more interested in humanism and literature more broadly, but I find it perplexing so many adults still bat so hard for them, they feel very much like books for young teens to me. That whole English fatalist writing style of juxtaposing the wacky with prosaic is really grating after a while (the grim reaper wants to go for a curry?!?! My sides!) . Pratchett is still better than Douglas Adams though, who wrote masturbation material for engineering students who want to give the impression of understanding Earth humour. Pratchett's books hold up to critical in depth analysis (At least, non-masturbatory analysis) and beyond the stuff you mentioned there are deeper musings on culture, society, etc. A lot of it is blatant and a lot isn't. There are blatant jokes and there are small hidden jokes that you really really aren't likely to catch unless you have a specific versing in, say, Welsh nomenclature, or whatever.
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Aug 1, 2021 00:32
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Can you be a nazi and a baby? Some of it is tied up in nostalgia, but a lot of the later Pratchett stuff has a very good turn of phrase and a real gift for language that I really enjoy. It also helps that a lot of his stuff is very readable and not, as you identify with Adams, somewhat given to lots and lots of words. Gaius Marius posted:I don't agree with your mentality, but this I can agree with. It disgust me to see all the people leaping to violence without regards to the people it will hurt, not just the victims, but all the bystanders caught in the crossfire. Violence is always an option. Sometimes it is neccesary to understand and know violence. It's just that it's not always the best option. Josef bugman has a new favorite as of 00:38 on Aug 1, 2021 |
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Aug 1, 2021 00:36
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Olivia Rodrigo and Billie Eillish are both terrible industry plants meant to influence the pop culture towards the goals of the system, the amount of support their getting is absurd compared to a real artist.
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Aug 1, 2021 00:56
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i'm strtictly on the side of "do not kill baby hitler under any circumstances" for several reasons. it's actually one of those "black and white" kind of things for me lol, even if it's quite nuanced so, the reasons: 1. if you're capable of murdering a baby in the first place, i'd say you don't have a moral ground to stand on where it comes to judging nazis. you'd make a great nazi yourself, actually 2. i do not subscribe to the "great man" theory. nazi germany happened because of the historical and material conditions surrounding it at the time. sure, hitler rode those conditions all the way to the top; however, even if he was out of the picture, without changing the historical and material conditions i don't think the result would be all that different 3. babies are people who haven't happened yet. i mean, yeah, of course, there's the parents, the family, the surrounding material conditions and all that, but all this is yet to come, yet to affect that particular baby (beyond whatever role genetics have to play in it, of course). i think essentialism leads to abhorrent results when applied to people, which is why i don't think hitler was set on his path of becoming the most vile human that ever lived literally from the moment he entered this world Gaius Marius posted:Olivia Rodrigo and Billie Eillish are both terrible industry plants meant to influence the pop culture towards the goals of the system, the amount of support their getting is absurd compared to a real artist. billie eilish is cool, actually, even if she is a plant 
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Aug 1, 2021 01:00
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People still like Discworld because it’s good
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Aug 1, 2021 01:03
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