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mediaphage posted:you can take a shortcut by vac packing your dough Tell me more
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Jun 11, 2021 19:15
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Reading all this convo on mixers makes me realize I’ve probably been doing it wrong and maybe why my dough is hard to form and sticky. I’m using a kitchen aid with a J hook...anyone got a link to good mixing instructions?
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Jun 12, 2021 04:15
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Summer corn is here so that means we bust out the Elote pizza! Garlic oil, cotija cheese, parm, woodfired corn, spicy mayo, more cotija, Tajin, cilantro and a lime wedge - and we do one with crushed up Flamin' Hot Cheetos for the true purists.  
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Jun 12, 2021 16:37
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Speaking of like challenging pizza folk wisdom, I decided to try and make like al il personal pizza for myself with 100 g of dough and I was like well let's see how thin I can get this, I have read never to use a rolling pin on pizza dough but let's just try and see how it comes out, because when I try to get it really thin by hand a lot of times I just can't quite get it even enough, it'll be slightly too thick in some places and create a small hole somewhere else. Anyway, I tried rolling it out, and it...it was fine? It was still really good, I was able to get it thin and more even than normal, and it still had a raised outer crust, just not a huge one. Am I missing something? It didn't seem dense or overly flat to me and was still really good and tasty and light.
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Jun 13, 2021 04:57
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The real sin isn't in rolling over the dough in general but specifically pushing down enough that you're popping all the air out of it. Going real hard from one end to the other can gather all the air as you go and pop it all out at the other end. Preferably, you'd manage to trap some of that air around the outer perimeter and get yourself some nice, pillow-like crust with some blisters for good measure. I personally don't know the real difference between a really thin center with no air versus one with the same mass of dough but unrolled air pockets. I think there's some structural thing to it as well but I haven't really experimented with the difference. Edit: The popping is one reason why I don't start or end with the roller. Starting out, I'm too tempted to push down. Ending with it, and I risk burst out all the air.
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Jun 13, 2021 07:14
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idk I had it pretty flat with what looked like relatively little air and it still rose again and was very light I mean I wasn't absolutely smashing it because I didn't want it to stick to the peel or roller but I flattened it pretty good
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Jun 13, 2021 08:15
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Yeah using a rolling pin will get you a flatter crust/cornicione than hand stretching but it still will rise. I think this "never use a rolling pin" comes more from tradition as the stretching is an integral part of Pizza making tradition. If you don't care for huge rubber raft like Neapolitan style corncicione then just use a rolling pin.
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Jun 13, 2021 10:10
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Malefitz posted:Yeah using a rolling pin will get you a flatter crust/cornicione than hand stretching but it still will rise. I think this "never use a rolling pin" comes more from tradition as the stretching is an integral part of Pizza making tradition. Just do what Sophia Loren does and slap the poo poo out of it and fry the fuckin' thing - super traditional pizza! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5Db3ofqpbU
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Jun 13, 2021 15:46
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^ She's got the technique. Sorbillo's pizza fritta is slapped to poo poo too, he just uses his fists: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhjpEMTmHr0&t=584s mediaphage posted:i'm not saying you're incorrect but i find this so strange because i literally just used a beater attachment this morning to make a perfect 65% hydration dough Yeah I've no idea what's going on. I'm still learning what 'ready' dough feels and looks like with a stand mixer. I found this easier to judge when kneading by hand since as soon as it stops being sticky it's done. I wonder if I'm over mixing? That might make sense since the j hook may be less efficient so over a similar timeframe it is being kneaded less. Stefan Prodan posted:No, I mean I just run it on the lowest speed for a few minutes, you really just need everything to combine, in my experience as long as everything comes together you just kinda scoop it off the paddle into the bowl, coat it with a bit of oil so it won't stick, then form it into a ball, and the rest of it will just kinda take care of itself while it rises. This also points to me overmixing tbh. I see plenty of videos of commercial pizzerias mixing large batches in spiral mixers for 20+ minutes, I figured in a less efficient domestic mixer with a smaller batch I should be doing similar but  Tonight's pizza was a 24h cold ferment after using the j hook and it seems to work for me: 
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Jun 13, 2021 19:28
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StarkingBarfish posted:^ She's got the technique. Sorbillo's pizza fritta is slapped to poo poo too, he just uses his fists: Jesus, I'd be worried about that popping and starting an oil fire, or at least sending hot oil flying everywhere. thotsky fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Jun 13, 2021 |
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Jun 13, 2021 19:53
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Fried pizzas are really nice- I've had the smaller ones you get in milan called panzarotti but not the neapolitan kind. Definitely not something I'd do at home because I can't be bothered with storing hot oil for infrequent use. It does remind me I need to start experimenting with calzones though.
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Jun 13, 2021 20:12
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Every batch I do I have a calzone Due to launch failure
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Jun 13, 2021 20:26
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StarkingBarfish posted:I wonder if I'm over mixing? 2 balls were mixed for short fermentation which I baked the next evening and 2 balls trying >48h fermentation for me because my SO was on business trip the weekend, one Friday and one Saturday. I tried various different things this time, not re-balling and all that stuff we had last week in the thread. For one batch I tried your technique of putting the mixer on 4 and "beating" the dough around. The one on Friday sticked to the new peel and ripped. The one on Saturday didn't stick on the peel as I made sure to use more flour. But it still ripped in the oven.  When stretching the dough was also a bit different than usual, just weaker which I initially thought would be due to not re-balling it combined with the long fermentation (Tuesday -> Saturday). It might have been the dough that I used your technique on and it might have been overkneaded. I'm really not sure if that is the case as I don't take notes of what I'm doing, thinking I remember everything and promptly forgetting it. Also I tried multiple new things at once. But I'm quite sure in hindsight the dough that failed twice this weekend was the one I used the mixer-to-4 technique on. I will go back to my technique of mixing less in the machine and having multiple short autolysis phases as I never had problems when I did it like this. Maybe you should also try that and see if it makes a difference? Mixing in the machine is really tricky. When I started out I also always thought the dough was under-kneaded. Because of this I managed to over-knead it in the past by just letting it mix longer. It also does depend a lot on the amount of dough one is mixing, I guess when I mix small batches for 2 Pizzas it is easy to overmix accidentally. StarkingBarfish posted:It does remind me I need to start experimenting with calzones though. I also want to make Calzone but I'm really not sure if it will work in an Effeuno when set to normal Pizza making temps. I fear the top is burned faster than usual as it sticks up to the heating element so much and the inside is still cold... PS: btw the Pizza in the picture is spinach, gorgonzola and (some) mozzarella di bufala. Awesome combination, shame it ripped.
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Jun 13, 2021 21:07
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Ripped or not that still looks great. Malefitz posted:I will go back to my technique of mixing less in the machine and having multiple short autolysis phases as I never had problems when I did it like this. Maybe you should also try that and see if it makes a difference? Thanks for the tips- out of interest, do you have any pointers for how dough looks/feels when it is reaching the stage at which it is properly mixed? Just so I know what I'm aiming for. I've found for batches that didn't work so well it felt sticky, dense, and looked shiny, whereas correctly kneaded batches were light, springy, and had a silky, dry matte surface. The fact I can't get to this stage after what I describe probably means overmixing but it's hard to tell when the transition to done is and when to stop.
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Jun 13, 2021 21:42
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in my experience it can look pretty rough after the first mix and come out with a perfectly smooth and not overly sticky ball after resting in the fridge for awhile I'll take a pic next time of what mine looks like after the initial mix and what it looks like the next day
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Jun 13, 2021 21:51
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What are you using to store cold fermenting pizza dough balls in the fridge? I've been using an 8x13 pan with plastic wrap over it, but stuff dries out around the seams and the pizza with particularly dry spots handles poorly. I was hoping to find a container in that profile that can be completely sealed but I figured I'd ask first. I'm often dealing with 6-10 dough balls. Edit: I'd really like something within 16"x20" since I can fit that in my outdoor fridge on one level. That's a pretty hard number to hit and it's hard to search ranges to see what's close. A standard pizza proofing box is too large. Rocko Bonaparte fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Jun 14, 2021 |
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Jun 14, 2021 00:04
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Here are my first batch of Neapolitan attempts with the Ooni 16. I love how fast these things cook!  
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Jun 14, 2021 00:14
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:What are you using to store cold fermenting pizza dough balls in the fridge? I've been using an 8x13 pan with plastic wrap over it, but stuff dries out around the seams and the pizza with particularly dry spots handles poorly. I was hoping to find a container in that profile that can be completely sealed but I figured I'd ask first. I'm often dealing with 6-10 dough balls. I personally use individual, dough ball sized Tupperware, which is definitely not what you're asking about but I think it's a good solution.
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Jun 14, 2021 00:55
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I'm using these, which were insanely cheap: https://www.solentplastics.co.uk/lid-for-400x300-euro-plastic-stacking-container/ the lid for them: https://www.solentplastics.co.uk/lid-for-400x300-euro-plastic-stacking-container/ L 400 x W 300 x H 75 mm That's a UK website but these are available everywhere. Just don't get them off amazon because the markup is something like 500%.   They stack well, hold 6x 270g balls easily and are a perfect size for putting in the fridge. They also fit in my dishwasher which makes things fairly easy to deal with. The lid isn't a tight fit but it does retain moisture, I've not had problems with dough drying out. There's other sizes listed on the same site, maybe you can narrow down a size close to the dimensions you're looking for there, and search local suppliers for the same dimensions. StarkingBarfish fucked around with this message at 10:02 on Jun 14, 2021 |
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Jun 14, 2021 09:57
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StarkingBarfish posted:Thanks for the tips- out of interest, do you have any pointers for how dough looks/feels when it is reaching the stage at which it is properly mixed? Just so I know what I'm aiming for. I've found for batches that didn't work so well it felt sticky, dense, and looked shiny, whereas correctly kneaded batches were light, springy, and had a silky, dry matte surface. The fact I can't get to this stage after what I describe probably means overmixing but it's hard to tell when the transition to done is and when to stop. Stefan Prodan posted:in my experience it can look pretty rough after the first mix and come out with a perfectly smooth and not overly sticky ball after resting in the fridge for awhile Pretty much what Stefan Prodan wrote minus the fridge. The signs you are looking for are the ones I also look for. Matte, smooth surface might be the best indicator of ready dough next to the window pane test. Shiny dough is for me the number one indicator that I overdid it in the machine next to the dough suddenly sticking to the mixer bowl during mixing. Springiness is also good but might be hard to judge some times... Let me quickly write down how I usually do it step by step and how the dough usually looks like after each step: When I start mixing I start on 1 until the dough is combined. I don't throw all the stuff in and then start the mixer, I pre-combine usually with a spatula by adding water -> dissolve salt -> add some flour -> add yeast -> add remaining flour gradually. You can also throw everything in but on my mixer it takes a while until it is fully combined as the hook doesn't grab the dough to do anything with it, it just stirs it at the start. After the dough is combined it looks chunky/crumbly. Let it rest for 15 minutes (covered of course) and it already looks way smoother. It's magic. Give it another few minutes of speed 2 and that should be it. Let it rest again afterwards and give it a hand knead before and after just so there are no parts which aren't well hydrated because they didn't get pulled in by the mixer. I also some times stretch and fold it a bit but only after letting it rest, otherwise you might rip apart the gluten structure. This is maybe one thing that clicked it for me, when the dough comes out of the mixer it doesn't look great! No window pane test possible for me ever. But I let it rest for 15 minutes and there it is, perfect window pane after minimal amount of kneading. Letting the dough rest is maybe the most important aspect of kneading with a mixer. I most certainly haven't perfected the process of mixer dough mixing but I try out different things a lot and I'm quite sure I get the best results if I mix less and let the dough rest more. I do need some more trial and error for when is the best time to ball up, the balls sometimes don't look great at first try. Probably because I am not great at it and stress the dough too much. I hope this helps, I'm curious about the differences you see. ShaneB posted:Here are my first batch of Neapolitan attempts with the Ooni 16. I love how fast these things cook! Welcome to the club of 90 second Pizza makers (or however long the Ooni needs)! I love the look of the second one, is that Pesto & Mozzarella?
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Jun 14, 2021 11:23
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Malefitz posted:
Thanks- these are the main things I was looking for- I'll report back on the next batch which is ~3 pizzas away  ShaneB posted:Here are my first batch of Neapolitan attempts with the Ooni 16. I love how fast these things cook! These look great by the way. How are you finding the Ooni? I've a friend who has one on order and is losing their mind waiting on it.
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Jun 14, 2021 11:34
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ogopogo posted:Summer corn is here so that means we bust out the Elote pizza! Jurassic Park dinosaur reaction.gif but instead of dinosaurs it’s me seeing this pizza
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Jun 14, 2021 11:37
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At this point I'm convinced ogopogo fabricated a great ruse about a restaurant and some centuries old sourdough starter passed down from his forefathers and in reality he is just copy pasting images from the top Italian Pizza Porn magazine.
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Jun 14, 2021 12:03
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Ogopogo's pizzas are on another level they always look amazing. Speaking of italians, pizza and porn:  This is pizza Rocco Siffredi named after a famous Italian pornstar who (because Italy) became a national treasure.
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Jun 14, 2021 13:02
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Malefitz posted:Welcome to the club of 90 second Pizza makers (or however long the Ooni needs)! Yeah. I had to sop up a LOT of olive oil/grease on top, however. Too much pesto, I think, and combined with the full-fat mozz it greased out. StarkingBarfish posted:These look great by the way. How are you finding the Ooni? I've a friend who has one on order and is losing their mind waiting on it. So far so great, I'm learning how to work with positioning and heat control in the oven for sure, but it's a blast. My SO and I had to wait for a few months to get ours, it sucked! I was initially like "gently caress this 16" oven is HUGE" and now am very glad I have the room to work in there, move the pizza around, avoid the hot edges, etc.
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Jun 14, 2021 18:10
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I said the same to my buddy- having the extra room to space it back from the heat a bit is super useful. Happy baking! Same mock duck and hoisin as before, so nothing too exciting about the ingredient choice, but happy with how this one came out tonight: 
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Jun 14, 2021 20:23
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Just to clear up what my mixing method is I uploaded a quick video so you guys can seen in real time, no cuts, how much I mix and what it looks like this is completely unedited so you can see that I only mix it for like two minutes and it's fine, it really doesn't have to do more than get mixed, if you don't believe me try it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aRtx-DjRlw
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Jun 16, 2021 08:00
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This is what it looked like 20 seconds after the video after I put some olive oil on it and rolled it a sec  so you can already see it looks much closer to a smooth dough ball and after resting and rising a bit it will look like a completely normal smooth dough ball
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Jun 16, 2021 08:02
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Stefan Prodan posted:This is what it looked like 20 seconds after the video after I put some olive oil on it and rolled it a sec Thanks for this, it's very helpful. This is basically how i make bread, and it works great there. The main difference is in the use of oil- for neapolitans like I'm aiming for this is discouraged at high heat (but works great at lower temps to get the crust to crisp up). I'll give the next batch a much shorter mix and see if it comes together.
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Jun 16, 2021 09:14
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StarkingBarfish posted:Thanks for this, it's very helpful. This is basically how i make bread, and it works great there. The main difference is in the use of oil- for neapolitans like I'm aiming for this is discouraged at high heat (but works great at lower temps to get the crust to crisp up). You could almost certainly just dust it with flour instead of oil if you need to keep it oil free
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Jun 16, 2021 09:19
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Jun 18, 2021 18:43
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That’s cool and looks tasty. It did make me wonder if there’s such a pizza that is half pizza and half calzone. Sort of a galette style thing where the crust gets folded partway up over some of the toppings. Because if there isn’t then I’m going to put this idle thought into invention time this weekend. I worry that it’ll just turn into a crappy stuffed crust pizza though.
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Jun 18, 2021 19:48
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Some fire looking pizzas on this page, great work everyone! Our NY style cheese pizza was on point today 
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Jun 18, 2021 20:37
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ogopogo posted:Some fire looking pizzas on this page, great work everyone! OK I have to ask here... when I top that heavily with cheese and sauce, my bottoms never set and the cheese greases out while the crusts burn. Is this just baking at a lower temp than the 900Fish that the Ooni's get to, for a longer time?
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Jun 18, 2021 21:51
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ogopogo posted:Some fire looking pizzas on this page, great work everyone! That looks perfect.
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Jun 19, 2021 00:20
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ogopogo posted:Some fire looking pizzas on this page, great work everyone! so good
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Jun 19, 2021 02:52
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ShaneB posted:OK I have to ask here... when I top that heavily with cheese and sauce, my bottoms never set and the cheese greases out while the crusts burn. Is this just baking at a lower temp than the 900Fish that the Ooni's get to, for a longer time? For this pizza, we build it oil, cheese, and then sauce on top, so that way the bottom crust has a chance to cook and set without the wet sauce above it. We also do cook at a slightly lower temp, in the 800F zone and let it cook for 2 mins or so.
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Jun 19, 2021 16:59
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ShaneB posted:OK I have to ask here... when I top that heavily with cheese and sauce, my bottoms never set and the cheese greases out while the crusts burn. Is this just baking at a lower temp than the 900Fish that the Ooni's get to, for a longer time? Rule of thumb (as explained to me) : the hotter the oven, the thinner the pizza crust you need. Basically a super hot oven will get you lots of "spring" when you put the dough in but you won't get much baking of the interior done before your ingredients burn. If it's just the bottom not cooking, let your oven warm up more. The floor surface maybe hot, but it hasn't stored much additional energy to transfer/cook the crust. (in wood ovens a great thing to do is spread the hot coals over the floor for a few minutes before cooking)
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Jun 19, 2021 17:49
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My results from today and another hint that less kneading is better. I decided to keep track of the timing a bit better this time so I can share what exactly I am doing when preparing the dough. I decided to do 2h bulk fermentation (kitchen room temperature was 25.5°C) and 48h cold fermentation (4°C). I used cold tap water, probably ~20°C this time of the year. Currently I do 62% hydration, 3% salt, 210g dough balls. I use fresh yeast, amount calculated by PizzApp. I pre-combined the ingredients with a spatula and then put everything in the mixer until it was fully combined on lowest speed, for roughly a minute. Covered the dough and let it rest for 15 minutes. Put the dough in the mixer again on second speed, ~2 minutes mixing. Took it out, gave it a quick knead and let it rest for 15 minutes. Now, at ~30 minutes I hand kneaded the dough very briefly and stretched and folded it, then let it rest for 30 minutes. Stretched and folded once more to strengthen the gluten and then again after another 30 minutes with 30 more minutes of resting time to complete the 2h of bulk fermentation. Last step was making balls and off they went into the fridge. On baking day I put the dough out 1.5h before baking, kitchen temp was >27°C today. Stretching went great, way better than my two failed dough balls last week. San Marzano tomato, Mozzarella di Bufala, mushrooms, garlic, basil.  The dough was nice and round until I tried to slide it onto the peel. Didn't manage to get its round shape back again. I'm learning. Also the toppings could be arranged better but meh.  Cornicione turned out nice and airy, not sure what more to expect here.  Bottom had a good color, it looks burnt here but it wasn't, it had a nice char. Bad lighting in this image I suppose. I'll still reduce the bottom temp a notch just to be on the safe side... I have one more dough ball in the fridge for tomorrow, I hope I'll get another good result like today. Some observations: It was already very hot on Thursday, the dough preparation day. I measured the dough temperature after combining and it was already ~25°C. I'm not sure if I would get even better results with ice cold water instead of tap water on hot days like this. Also I'm not sure if the overall results will be the same on a cold day...probably not and I'm asking myself what exactly would be different and how to adjust. Next time I would probably not stretch and fold the dough as often while bulk fermenting. I guess I'll skip the last s&f and let it rest for an hour instead.
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Jun 19, 2021 22:40
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| # ? May 26, 2024 04:31 |
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Made second Pizza of the batch today. Turned out great, too. San Marzano tomato, Mozzarella di Bufala, Bluefou, basil, freshly ground black pepper.  I loving love Pizza.
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Jun 20, 2021 19:25
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