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God grant me the serenity to accept the lanes I cannot change the courage to soak the lanes I can and the wisdom to know the difference.
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May 22, 2017 14:51
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| # ? Jun 5, 2024 15:08 |
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bamhand posted:When in doubt split soaking is the correct answer IF your teammates understand that they need to avoid fighting/dying. In general people don't understand safe soaking very well. All you need to do is stand near minions while they die. You don't need to actively kill them or attack your opponent. You can just sit in a bush and wait. In fact it's often detrimental to kill minions yourself because it pushes the wave closer to the enemy fort and forces you to get further and further out of position to soak. Hell, sometimes NOT attacking the minions at all is the better option if you're able to zone your opponent out of XP range effectively and deny them the opportunity to safely soak from behind the walls.
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May 22, 2017 14:54
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bamhand posted:...But be aware that as you push the wave forward you become more and more vulnerable to a rotation and gank from their team. I definitely never considered any of this before so i appreciate it, this is my first moba outside of Paragon which is a fun game but almost definitely a bad moba.
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May 22, 2017 14:57
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Poultron posted:Everything I've heard about TL is that the matchmaking is nightmarish, and I don't think my drafting is quite good enough Next time you see me in SAGoons say "anyone for TL?" just jump in. Get on Discord and we'll figure out a draft that works. Even if you have only a couple heroes you like, we can build around you, especially since TL pick order is flexible, so you can always go first or always go last depending on which type of hero you want.
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May 22, 2017 14:59
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Anything with draft is a lot fairer because even though you get the occasional Illidan slampicker, it at least promotes some cooperation and communication before the match even starts. People also tend to play the heroes they're good with so you're not subject to somebody trying out TLV for the very first time.
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May 22, 2017 15:03
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bamhand posted:When in doubt split soaking is the correct answer IF your teammates understand that they need to avoid fighting/dying. In general people don't understand safe soaking very well. All you need to do is stand near minions while they die. You don't need to actively kill them or attack your opponent. You can just sit in a bush and wait. In fact it's often detrimental to kill minions yourself because it pushes the wave closer to the enemy fort and forces you to get further and further out of position to soak. The game is really really bad at explaining the concept of XP soak, or rather the idea that you want people soaking everywhere they can. You can see if in QM all day erry day as there will be low level teamfights with a level deficit, or people grabbing merc camps on an XP deficit. Edit: Also I think a lot of people overvalue merc camps, or at least don't understand when/why you want them.
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May 22, 2017 15:08
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frakeaing HAMSTER DANCE posted:The game is really really bad at explaining the concept of XP soak, or rather the idea that you want people soaking everywhere they can. You can see if in QM all day erry day as there will be low level teamfights with a level deficit, or people grabbing merc camps on an XP deficit. Yeah, I think it's just how the shared xp works. I was thinking the other day that it's super obvious in DotA when you miss xp/gold it impacts your hero in a very clear way. When everything is shared it becomes a lot less obvious when you hearth while solo laning without asking your teammates to come to your lane to soak for you and you miss 3 waves. Then the opposing team hits 10 before you and you are forced to give up the objective and then they snowball to a win. frakeaing HAMSTER DANCE posted:Edit: Also I think a lot of people overvalue merc camps, or at least don't understand when/why you want them. This is the WOOORST. Your 4 minute siege giants are not worth giving your enemy a half level xp lead over. If we fall behind in the early game I'm happy to see the entire enemy team disappear from lanes to grab mercs. Gives us a chance to catch up. bamhand fucked around with this message at 15:14 on May 22, 2017 |
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May 22, 2017 15:11
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At my terrible trash elo it is not uncommon to see no mercs taken unless I specifically am playing a champ that can solo mercs quickly.
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May 22, 2017 15:17
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bamhand posted:This is the WOOORST. Your 4 minute siege giants are not worth giving your enemy a half level xp lead over. If we fall behind in the early game I'm happy to see the entire enemy team disappear from lanes to grab mercs. Gives us a chance to catch up. You can grab camps just fine without giving up soak in any lane though. The actual worst are people who sit 2-3 people soaking the same lane for several minutes doing essentially nothing when there is a 4 minute siege camp they could be grabbing instead. Outside of objectives and pushing forts grabbing camps is one of the most useful things you can do in this game.
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May 22, 2017 15:18
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Generally safe times to take a merc camp: -The enemy team is down one or two team members and you are not. -Before a map objective is about to pop, therefore asking the red team to split their focus between the objective and stopping a push. -You can do so very quickly without an enormous expenditure of resources. I.e: Rexxar, Gazlowe, anyone with charged Bribe stacks. When you should not generally take merc camps: -When the objective is active. -When you have a level disadvantage. -When you're not level 10 for gently caress's sake. -When a team fight is occurring two seconds away from you.
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May 22, 2017 15:20
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I do have one specific merc question. Is it worth stealing the enemy boss on Cursed Hollow while they are cursed or should you ideally wait until the curse is under 10-15 second left to take?
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May 22, 2017 15:21
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Push, win a team fight, then take the enemy boss when you're uncontested or nearly so.
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May 22, 2017 15:23
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Kashuno posted:I do have one specific merc question. Is it worth stealing the enemy boss on Cursed Hollow while they are cursed or should you ideally wait until the curse is under 10-15 second left to take? Taking a boss while curse is active is a trap and wastes time you could be slamming down their buildings. Only take the boss during a curse if they're so much stronger than you that you still can't fight them during curse or if you won't be able to take down anything of importance during the last 15 seconds or so. Spending the curse time taking a boss means not only did you waste the objective it also means you likely delivered free large minion waves to each of their lanes for them to quickly exp farm.
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May 22, 2017 15:24
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Kashuno posted:I do have one specific merc question. Is it worth stealing the enemy boss on Cursed Hollow while they are cursed or should you ideally wait until the curse is under 10-15 second left to take? Wait until curse is over. Don't waste curse time taking the boss when you could be spending it blowing up several forts.
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May 22, 2017 15:25
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Really strongly disagree that you should not take merc camps before level 10 or just because you're at a level disadvantage. I don't even understand where that is coming from.
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May 22, 2017 15:29
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With tower ammo letting the wave into your gate isn't always a good idea. It's not like league where freezing the lane is super important. If you safe soak too passively you'll still get pushed down.
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May 22, 2017 15:31
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*spam pings the boss while the enemy is down 4 and our entire team is standing in front of a keep*
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May 22, 2017 15:32
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I understand when it's safe to do it, but when is it a super good idea to grab mercs? If I'm over level 10 or and running by a camp with an ally to get somewhere we usually knock it out. Only time that really seems good is on braxis holdout we claim one objective for the zerg, then grab mercs on the way to rotating to the other objective in order to put out tower pressure while fighting to get zerg advantage. And what's meant by " not when you're level 10 for fucks sakes"? Because i legit dont see why not since I've only been playing a week. Is it because the mobs hurt and could cause you to hearthstone back?
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May 22, 2017 15:32
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:With tower ammo letting the wave into your gate isn't always a good idea. It's not like league where freezing the lane is super important. If you safe soak too passively you'll still get pushed down. On a lot of maps the objective will start before the minions can even fully wear down your ammo, and by the time you come back it will be mostly recharged.
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May 22, 2017 15:36
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Don't take mercs if you're under level 10 and you'd have to leave a lane unsoaked. If all three lanes are occupied by a teammate and you can do mercs quickly by yourself, sure. But there's always an exception - e.g. Infernal Shrines if rotating from mid to bottom or vice versa, you might as well take the khazra camp if you can smash it quickly and get to your destination lane before the current minion wave dies. Also, you should try and do bruisers on Sky Temple before the second temple phase pops.
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May 22, 2017 15:38
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Mercs are best right before an objective needs to be fought over. Mercs are your split pushers. They do the most when the enemy is distracted from them. Otherwise getting an enemy camp when it's safe is always good to deny it.
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May 22, 2017 15:38
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Gustav posted:You can grab camps just fine without giving up soak in any lane though. The actual worst are people who sit 2-3 people soaking the same lane for several minutes doing essentially nothing when there is a 4 minute siege camp they could be grabbing instead. Outside of objectives and pushing forts grabbing camps is one of the most useful things you can do in this game. In my case it's always the solo laner that decides to gently caress off and grab mercs. Or even worse it's a 2 man lane and they BOTH go grab a camp because neither of them can solo it. I would rather have our entire team just ignore mercs and soak than have the solo guy miss half a level to get camps.
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May 22, 2017 15:41
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Gustav posted:On a lot of maps the objective will start before the minions can even fully wear down your ammo, and by the time you come back it will be mostly recharged. I think it's three full waves, which isn't a whole lot. If you're getting hella zoned you can lose the gate before the first objective. Though they will need aggressive presence in the lane to take the buildings in time. The real problem is without the ammo they just zone you past the gate and you can't even get globes
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May 22, 2017 15:41
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bamhand posted:In my case it's always the solo laner that decides to gently caress off and grab mercs. Or even worse it's a 2 man lane and they BOTH go grab a camp because neither of them can solo it. I would rather have our entire team just ignore mercs and soak than have the solo guy miss half a level to get camps. So what are you waiting for, get over there and cover his lane. He's got work to do, any rear end in a top hat can soak.
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May 22, 2017 15:43
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My favorite is 3 lanes pushed in, enemy team dead, and everyone goes for mercs, like push and win instead?
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May 22, 2017 15:45
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Gustav posted:So what are you waiting for, get over there and cover his lane. He's got work to do, any rear end in a top hat can soak. Because the solo laner is furthest away from everyone else so by the time I see him at the merc camp I head down and reach his lane oh hey the objective popped now I need to run all the away across the map again and I didn't even get to soak any xp. Or we're running 1-3-1 on a large map and I'm also solo soaking a lane.
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May 22, 2017 15:46
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Gustav posted:Really strongly disagree that you should not take merc camps before level 10 or just because you're at a level disadvantage. I don't even understand where that is coming from. {imo} Level 10's such a game changer that if you're going into a team fight without it when red does, you're at an enormous disadvantage. Merc camps don't contribute as much as soaking, or, hell, even roaming to gank. The odds of losing a team fight are so stacked against you without the R in your kit that I wouldn't even bother. Let them stack up seeds / tributes / temples while you level, or your rear end is grass. {/imo}
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May 22, 2017 16:08
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It's hard to develop hard and fast rules for anything in HotS because so much of the game is situational, and statements like never merc before 10 are helpful in most cases except for when they're not. It's more useful to get in the habit of frequently looking at your minimap, seeing what's going on, and quickly determine what you should be doing next based on what objectives are up and what members of the team are alive/dead.
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May 22, 2017 16:17
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Also, everyone is laning pre-10, so they'll just kill the mercs and they won't accomplish anythingexquisite tea posted:It's hard to develop hard and fast rules for anything in HotS because so much of the game is situational, and statements like never merc before 10 are helpful in most cases except for when they're not. It's more useful to get in the habit of frequently looking at your minimap, seeing what's going on, and quickly determine what you should be doing next based on what objectives are up and what members of the team are alive/dead. This is true, but if you need to condense it for a new player, I'd say that more often than not, laning is the proper choice pre-10 over getting mercs. I would not expect a new player to understand the rare circumstance where that isn't true.
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May 22, 2017 16:17
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frakeaing HAMSTER DANCE posted:Also, everyone is laning pre-10, so they'll just kill the mercs and they won't accomplish anything depends, sometimes you can catch someone who has abysmal wave clear and calls their team over to help clear the mercs, which opens up other lanes or gank opportunities.
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May 22, 2017 16:19
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My favorite merc thing is in poo poo tier games where my team loses the first objective and are down in levels say 8 to 10, and they all just start going around doing mercs in a ball. Wait it's 9 to 12 now? How could this be?
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May 22, 2017 16:43
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I've been on a big Zul'jin kick lately and this is the build I feel the most comfortable with: You Want Axe? / Troll's Blood / Vicious Assault or Recklessness (depending on if the enemy has burst that can surprise me if I'm low) / Taz'dingo / Forest Medicine / Lacerate or Ferocity (depending on if my team doesn't have enough slows to keep enemies in range) / Amani Resilience Zul'jin is probably the best fort killer in the game. If your team can zone out the enemy and let him work I'm not sure there's a hero that destroys buildings or Boss faster than Zul'jin. Maybe a Demonic Invasion Azmodan or a full spider Nazeebo?
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May 22, 2017 17:05
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Also speaking of Zul'jin, I much prefer how his kit and talents are set up compared to Lunara and Greymane (two other heroes completely focused on their basic attacks) where their talents don't actually *do* anything because so much of their power is baked into their base kit.
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May 22, 2017 17:07
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I'm not really sure what the mercs even do, (besides move and attack, obviously). Is there somewhere I should look to learn what the relative value of each camp on the different maps are?
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May 22, 2017 17:40
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SKULL.GIF posted:Also speaking of Zul'jin, I much prefer how his kit and talents are set up compared to Lunara and Greymane (two other heroes completely focused on their basic attacks) where their talents don't actually *do* anything because so much of their power is baked into their base kit. I don't agree with you about Lunara's talents. She has some really nice ones, some average ones, and a few stinkers. But they can change up her playstyle a fair amount. I do however agree with you that Zul'jin is a great and fun hero to play. Even his W build, while generally not performing up to an autoattack build, is really fun for what it is.
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May 22, 2017 17:52
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Tender Bender posted:I'm not really sure what the mercs even do, (besides move and attack, obviously). Is there somewhere I should look to learn what the relative value of each camp on the different maps are? They basically just push lanes. Siege mercs outrange towers but bruiser mercs can absorb an almost infinite amount of non player damage. Bruisers basically cannot be ignored, especially on the Diablo maps. The Fallen Shaman will push to your core if you ignore it long enough. I don't really know how the Starcraft mercs work compare. The Hellbats I think are siege mercs? They feel just like bruisers except there are half as many to me.
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May 22, 2017 17:54
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Lunara's talents can change quite a bit depending on what heroes you're up against and what ultimate you plan on taking.
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May 22, 2017 17:54
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SKULL.GIF posted:Greymane SKULL.GIF posted:heroes completely focused on their basic attacks  That's a complete inaccurate description of Greymane.
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May 22, 2017 17:57
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Lemon-Lime posted:
The cocktail tossing is incidental to the reason you pick Greymane, which is that he hits like a fur-covered truck and can switch up whether he does this at range or in melee. There's a reason most players go full cocktail at 1/4/7, it's because that's the only build that reliably adds damage.
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May 22, 2017 18:14
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| # ? Jun 5, 2024 15:08 |
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So is cocktail damage physical or spell damage? I'm having trouble keeping track of what counts as physical and spell. Is there a good rule of thumb to figuring that poo poo out...
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May 22, 2017 18:23
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