|
Keep in mind after Azem left the convocation they also refused to help summon Hydaelyn, so they seemed to know creating a second God to do their work wasn't a 100% good idea even if they had noble intentions.
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2021 21:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 13, 2024 03:15 |
|
|
Cleretic posted:If they're gonna go for that, then Zenos needs to die because he interrupted someone before they mention information crucial to his victory, and so he gets blindsided by techniques and characters that he says he was never told about. https://clips.twitch.tv/JoyousSecretiveAubergineAMPTropPunch-otBWyJUsrEFVmp32
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2021 21:35
|
|
|
Veev posted:Keep in mind after Azem left the convocation they also refused to help summon Hydaelyn, so they seemed to know creating a second God to do their work wasn't a 100% good idea even if they had noble intentions. Which begs the question, what exactly was Azem doing during the Final Days and when Hydaelyn is summoned? We know what they did not do, but knowing what they did do could provide a lot of context. That'll probably be a question to get an answer in EW.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2021 21:38
|
|
|
Presumably wandering the land looking for another way to solve the problem like they always did.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2021 22:20
|
|
|
I used to think we'd probably end up fighting hydaelyn (or venat) with some justification but the reveal that 6.1 will start a new arc mostly makes that unlikely. She would have been a good 6.3 boss otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Apr 22, 2021 22:26
|
|
|
I still think she'd be a pretty weak boss fight. She by nature has to come after Zodiark, because no matter how much of a murderboner a section of the community has for killing her, she's less of a priority than Zodiark. And I don't see fighting a giant blue rock as appreciably different as fighting a giant purple rock.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 00:10
|
|
|
we kill her in 5.55
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 00:24
|
|
|
Hydaelyn will become one of our minions like Middy and she'll just zip around our head highlighting points of interest squeaking HEAR FEEL THINK
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 00:28
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:I still think she'd be a pretty weak boss fight. She by nature has to come after Zodiark, because no matter how much of a murderboner a section of the community has for killing her, she's less of a priority than Zodiark. They managed to make fighting Elidibus feel different enough to fighting Emet-Selch. If you think that Zodiark/Hydaelen trials would just be fighting big rocks, you clearly have no faith in the writers/encounter designers.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 00:29
|
|
|
So my brother finally made his way into Shadowbringers and was recently introduced to Ranjit. He hates characters with bullshit plot armor, so watching him rage about that goddamn old man has been pretty amusing.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 00:31
|
|
|
the_steve posted:So my brother finally made his way into Shadowbringers and was recently introduced to Ranjit. There's a reason. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 00:45
|
|
|
I'm kinda on board. Compare him with Zenos. When you first fight him in Rhalgar's Reach, you can't do appreciable damage to him and then a couple hits kick your rear end. When I first fought Ranjit, I was knee deep in his dead troops, and I clowned all over him on the fight. Until he clicked the win button. Both kinda suck, but I felt the Ranjit fights didn't sell his power any.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 00:46
|
|
|
I just like the old kung fu man archetype, so I don't care if he beats me up.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 00:52
|
|
|
I still think Ran'jit works better than Zenos, in large part because Ran'jit's powers are new, weird and different. Zenos was a samurai with big muscles; we got Samurai that same expansion, we know what his constraints 'should' be, he's just arbitrarily jacked as hell and gets to decide when you lose. Ran'jit is nothing we've really seen before, and has no clear analogues. He's a rough mixture of Monk, Summoner, Dragoon and Black Mage, and is clearly either very attuned to his body or hosting some extra power. We can't really say why he couldn't beat our rear end. On top of that, he's got a reasonable progression; every time we fight him, he pulls some new wild bullshit, and then next fight we best that part and run up against a different wall. Ran'jit is absolutely how I think it would feel if we were to somehow fight another WoL, you can map his progression very easily to, say, Summoner's kit. Also, Ran'jit wins every battle but loses every sortie; he fails at achieving every reason he actually appears in a scene. More people should recognize that, it's far more palatable than Zenos actually hindering our progress or undoing a level's worth of MSQ progress because he decided to walk in and god-mode.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 00:58
|
|
|
I was not a fan of Ran'jit and still think his sudden arbitrary victory over you in Lakeland felt bad, but with some distance I can respect the fact that they were trying to demonstrate that the WoL is not invincible. And they made up for it by the fact that the next time you fight him 1v1 with no distractions, you actually just kill him dead right there in a solo duty and that's it - he's simply another obstacle on your way to Vauthry and he's defeated and forgotten like the rest of them. No big dramatic trial or anything. Just the WoL demonstrating their strength, as Ran'jit demonstrated his in Lakeland
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 01:05
|
|
|
erenoyo posted:I was not a fan of Ran'jit and still think his sudden arbitrary victory over you in Lakeland felt bad, but with some distance I can respect the fact that they were trying to demonstrate that the WoL is not invincible. And they made up for it by the fact that the next time you fight him 1v1 with no distractions, you actually just kill him dead right there in a solo duty and that's it - he's simply another obstacle on your way to Vauthry and he's defeated and forgotten like the rest of them. No big dramatic trial or anything. Just the WoL demonstrating their strength, as Ran'jit demonstrated his in Lakeland It also makes more sense when you realize that like the jester twins, he was a boss in the cut Assault on Eulmore dungeon. The first boss was cut entirely - apparently there was going to be a sin eater sea monster that attacked as you cross the bridge into Eulmore.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 02:15
|
|
|
The WoL has never been undefeatable. We're not superman where we're incapable of losing a fight and the drama comes from situations where that isn't enough. It's not really surprising that there's a few shitkickers on par with us Ranjit's intro is still kinda lame but it's just a mediocre scene, it's not like the WoL being beaten can't be done right.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 02:20
|
|
|
cheetah7071 posted:The WoL has never been undefeatable. We're not superman where we're incapable of losing a fight and the drama comes from situations where that isn't enough. It's not really surprising that there's a few shitkickers on par with us In the actual game, the WoL's 'power level' has remained approximately steady since Heavensward. Levels and equipment upgrades are not a concrete in-universe thing that means you're several times stronger, we're still at about the same level as when we needed seven friends to kick Nidhogg's teeth in. Unfortunately, they've never come out and said that, so some people think that we're Dragon Ball protagonists who get exponentially beefier and are now basically a demigod. Cythereal posted:It also makes more sense when you realize that like the jester twins, he was a boss in the cut Assault on Eulmore dungeon. Also, I wish we got this dungeon, it sounds super cool. Where did you hear about it?
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 02:32
|
|
|
That's not true. Zenos remarks on our strength increasing over the course of Stormblood, and we definitely get stronger when Ardbert merges with us.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 02:34
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:In the actual game, the WoL's 'power level' has remained approximately steady since Heavensward. Levels and equipment upgrades are not a concrete in-universe thing that means you're several times stronger, we're still at about the same level as when we needed seven friends to kick Nidhogg's teeth in. This is pretty explicitly untrue. Multiple characters have mentioned how much stronger we've gotten, Zenos being the king example there as we went from getting wrecked by him to fighting him with four friends to only losing in a solo duel because Graha Tia has poo poo timing. More to the point the game specifically designs itself to show strength growing. Enemies who are bosses end up as trash mobs later on or are replaced by more powerful versions or so-on. It's actually pretty cool if you pay attention. Garlean robots are a great way to see. Like one of the bosses from Balsaer's Wall ends up as a trash mob in Ala Mhigo and such. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Apr 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 02:40
|
|
|
Really the problem is that cutscene losses are lame and its hard to make an instance where you lose fun
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 02:49
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:More to the point the game specifically designs itself to show strength growing. Enemies who are bosses end up as trash mobs later on or are replaced by more powerful versions or so-on. It's actually pretty cool if you pay attention. Garlean robots are a great way to see. Like one of the bosses from Balsaer's Wall ends up as a trash mob in Ala Mhigo and such. I was actually preparing to refute this one because I assumed the evidence for this was gonna be the recently-relevant Lunar Bahamut, so thanks for the more relevant example! Lunar Bahamut is actually in part the other way around; the reason Bahamut goes from an 8-player fight in the Coils to a 4-player in Paglth'an isn't (just) because we're stronger, it's largely because Lunar Bahamut is weaker than Real (well, Real Primal) Bahamut. But something else to remember is that, for all our increases in strength, it's all in the realm of 'regular in-setting human ability'. Remember that we still stand approximately equal to any individual member of Gunnhildr's Blades or the big players in the IVth Legion. And those guys may be war heroes, but that's all they are. Hell, we're clearly weaker than 2B/2P despite our occasional cutscene stunts, just judging by the Tower. We aren't Goku or Superman. We're Krillin or Green Arrow.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 02:58
|
|
|
cheetah7071 posted:Really the problem is that cutscene losses are lame and its hard to make an instance where you lose fun Cutscene losses are fine in the right context, in-game forced losses are terrible. If Zenos is supposed to stomp around and win, don't give me a battle where I can survive and dodge his AoE and slowly whittle him down when the game only progresses once I get hit. Worse is if I fail for losing too soon. Have him use a zonewide AoE after a couple of attacks, or do like the Banquet and have our character run while someone else gets diced. Heck, have him beat us up in a cutscene, allow the WoL to be weak on-camera, that played wonderfully at the end of 5.0. If it's a scripted loss I don't want to be able to drag it out.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 03:12
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:Unfortunately, they've never come out and said that, so some people think that we're Dragon Ball protagonists who get exponentially beefier and are now basically a demigod. excuse me yes i am
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 03:14
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:I was actually preparing to refute this one because I assumed the evidence for this was gonna be the recently-relevant Lunar Bahamut, so thanks for the more relevant example! Lunar Bahamut is actually in part the other way around; the reason Bahamut goes from an 8-player fight in the Coils to a 4-player in Paglth'an isn't (just) because we're stronger, it's largely because Lunar Bahamut is weaker than Real (well, Real Primal) Bahamut. That isn't really accurate though. We're not effortlessly soloing everything but we're still one of the strongest people in the settings and have been shown to be able to duel one-on-one with Elidibus-in-Zenos Body and Ranjit who are among the absolute strongest single individuals in their respective worlds. Even if something is stronger during the first encounter we end up outpacing them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 03:17
|
|
|
We are explicitly Goku. We show up at the end of the fights to save the day and finally put that big W up. The other scions are the rest of the z warriors. Map then however you like, but krile is ciaotzu
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 03:38
|
|
|
ZenMasterBullshit posted:We are explicitly Goku. We show up at the end of the fights to save the day and finally put that big W up. This would imply that Chaotzu can terrify the every living poo poo out of Piccolo.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 03:40
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:This would imply that Chaotzu can terrify the every living poo poo out of Piccolo. Estinien is vegeta. He's got weirdo unique powers almost as good as us but not quiet. Thancred is piccolo.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 03:42
|
|
|
ZenMasterBullshit posted:Estinien is vegeta. He's got weirdo unique powers almost as good as us but not quiet. Thancred is piccolo. Estinein is the one who takes care of the small child that the WoL always hangs out with after forming an improbably friendship with him tho'. Zenos is Vegeta.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 03:45
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:That isn't really accurate though. We're not effortlessly soloing everything but we're still one of the strongest people in the settings and have been shown to be able to duel one-on-one with Elidibus-in-Zenos Body and Ranjit who are among the absolute strongest single individuals in their respective worlds. Even if something is stronger during the first encounter we end up outpacing them. 'Peak human ability' is still a peak other people can reach, is my point. And have reached, often before us. And a few people seem more than capable of keeping pace with us, such as the rest of the 'A-Team' Scions. Hell, Thancred keeps pace despite his handicap, which suggests we aren't exactly superheroes. It crucially also means that we get outpaced pretty hard by inhuman figures--such as dragons, Ascians, androids. Apparently clay pigs and fat fishpeople.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 03:47
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:We're Krillin or We killed Krillin in Syrcus Tower though.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 03:50
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:'Peak human ability' is still a peak other people can reach, is my point. And have reached, often before us. And a few people seem more than capable of keeping pace with us, such as the rest of the 'A-Team' Scions. Hell, Thancred keeps pace despite his handicap, which suggests we aren't exactly superheroes. The A-Team Scions are powerful in their own right but each and every one of them treats the WoL as the big stick, not an equal ally. This is shown pretty firmly in game where Thancred has to almost murder himself to drive Ranjit off in comparison to the WoL pretty effortlessly slapping the floor with him *after* fighting through a tower of mind controller minions. Likewise we're shown to be able to keep up with stronger and stronger dragons as time progresses. We go from having trouble with the bare rear end basic dragons to most of those being fodder to being able to fight Midgarsormr at his peak (or at least a simulation of him.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Apr 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 03:50
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:The A-Team Scions are powerful in their own right but each and every one of them treats the WoL as the big stick, not an equal ally. This is shown pretty firmly in game where Thancred has to almost murder himself to drive Ranjit off in comparison to the WoL pretty effortlessly slapping the floor with him *after* fighting through a tower of mind controller minions. Yeah all those examples of things Cleretic says are outpacing us are things we canonically soundly beat.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 03:57
|
|
|
The WoL's super power is that they care the most about their friends  And while I disagree with Cleretic and think that the WoL is definitely implied to be constantly getting stronger and stronger in-universe, I agree with her that we aren't superhuman. Literally nothing the player character is capable of is unique - other characters can see through time and space using the Echo, other characters can speak with Hydaelyn, other characters have killed Ascians, other characters can resist tempering, even changing jobs is something other characters do in-universe. I would hate if they go down the "actually Azem's aether makes you inherently superior to everyone else" route, but I'm not really worried that they'd be that lazy.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 04:00
|
|
|
ZenMasterBullshit posted:Yeah all those examples of things Cleretic says are outpacing us are things we canonically soundly beat. With three, to seven, to twenty-three friends*. *Except for 2P, I haven't tallied up the numbers on that fight. But I think it maxes out at about five at once, so even that still comes pretty close to 'about four times as strong as one (1) WoL'.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 04:15
|
|
|
Ran'jit never felt like he was giving the WoL a challenge, even the first time didn't even feel like a loss so much as "at this rate he's going to waste too much of our time" and then all his subsequent appearances are like "oh great the interesting parts are over now that Dragonball Grandpa wants to pretend I'm still Kid Goku."
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 04:25
|
|
|
Chillgamesh posted:The WoL's super power is that they care the most about their friends The writers not being lazy is why I do not think we will get the long-sought opportunity to kill the nice lady-voice-having intro character. I don't think they are going to have Hydaelyn be the final boss, just in the sense of "and then, the supportive character was evil! Quick, fight her! No reason except implicit maltheism!" I would not be shocked if the reveal in 5.55 is that someone else (fannypack) killed* Hydaelyn and we actually have to re-summon her out of the Lifestream to smash out Zenos Super Zodiark Jin or whatever. Nessus fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Apr 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 04:34
|
|
|
The only thing that having a part of Azem's soul means is that it's time to gather some collectible grapes to earn arms and armor from Rowena.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 04:40
|
|
|
Hogama posted:Ran'jit never felt like he was giving the WoL a challenge, even the first time didn't even feel like a loss so much as "at this rate he's going to waste too much of our time" and then all his subsequent appearances are like "oh great the interesting parts are over now that Dragonball Grandpa wants to pretend I'm still Kid Goku." yea Ran'jit's thing was a real low point of a fantastic expansion. He was a really just...weak character, both story and power wise, dude never did anything interesting or expanded on the breadcrumbs and even in canon his attacks were more 'okay WoL stand between Rayne and him because he can totally take her but you just will shove him back like a toddler trying to run at you'.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 04:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 13, 2024 03:15 |
|
|
Ranjit was perfect for the very narrow window he was meant to exist in, a threat to RYne that mirrors Thancred's shittier instincts that he has to over come. Outside of that he's nothing but we stomp him to death the next time he appears in the plot after Thancred's big development moment so he fits fine. Not ever character has to get fully fleshed out or have their whole deal unraveled.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2021 04:44
|
|