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The elite military units of Battletech are better compared to the elite military units of the classical, medieval, and Renaissance eras, than to modern military forces. So, consider the Varangian Guard, the elite Viking-descended (and then later, "viking-descended") unit charged with protecting the Byzantine emperor at all costs. They were renowned, they were feared, they were by most accounts pretty badass... but they were also small, confined to Constantinople most of the time, and probably most members of the Guard lived their entire lives without being involved in a fight with a foreign army. They're more analogous to a Battletech elite and prestigious unit, than some company or division of the modern US army.
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Feb 15, 2013 02:56
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| # ? May 24, 2024 06:59 |
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Which is what makes the Death Commandos such an anomaly, really. They're about the only large scale special forces left in the Inner Sphere, certainly in 3025 Inner Sphere. I mean, sure, you've got company sized units specialized in raiding like McKinnon's Raiders, the Black Widow Company, and Cranston Snord's Irregulars, but besides maybe the Stealthy Tigers out of the Commonwealth, and those guys are mercs, there's no true special forces unit out there the way the Death Commandos are. Certainly not one as large, well equipped, and highly trained the way the DCs are. And it makes sense, really. Without the ability to get as many mechs in the field as their Marik and Davion enemies, going to asymmetrical warfare only makes sense. Mind you, that only works if you actually use them before 2/5 of your realm gets conquered, but now we're back to Stackpole.
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Feb 15, 2013 03:10
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The 8th Lyran Regulars can get pretty weird if you let them. That's why they got sent after pirates instead of civilized folk. I mean, they formed after loving with the FWLM for so long that they literally walked onto the Marik base and marched a full mech regiment out of it.
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Feb 15, 2013 03:22
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jng2058 posted:Which is what makes the Death Commandos such an anomaly, really. They're about the only large scale special forces left in the Inner Sphere, certainly in 3025 Inner Sphere. I mean, sure, you've got company sized units specialized in raiding like McKinnon's Raiders, the Black Widow Company, and Cranston Snord's Irregulars, but besides maybe the Stealthy Tigers out of the Commonwealth, and those guys are mercs, there's no true special forces unit out there the way the Death Commandos are. Certainly not one as large, well equipped, and highly trained the way the DCs are. There are actually a few others - the Blackhearts come to mind (as a descendent of the old SLDF special ops commands, also mercs), the FS has units like the Ceti Hussars that are implied to be designed for that sort of thing, and so on. If a unit is described as being designed around "raiding" and "hit-and-run" tactics, it's a safe bet to say that what they actually mean is "things that would be war crimes if people found out". The difference with the DCs is more that they're so explicitly and publicly intended for that sort of purpose. Which is why (as DI says, oh poo poo I'm agreeing with DI what is happening) they are canonly kind of ridiculous.
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Feb 15, 2013 03:25
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The difference with the DC is that they're quite obviously the ones with the skulls on.
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Feb 15, 2013 03:37
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jng2058 posted:Which is what makes the Death Commandos such an anomaly, really. They're about the only large scale special forces left in the Inner Sphere, certainly in 3025 Inner Sphere. I mean, sure, you've got company sized units specialized in raiding like McKinnon's Raiders, the Black Widow Company, and Cranston Snord's Irregulars, but besides maybe the Stealthy Tigers out of the Commonwealth, and those guys are mercs, there's no true special forces unit out there the way the Death Commandos are. Certainly not one as large, well equipped, and highly trained the way the DCs are. Defiance Industries posted:The 8th Lyran Regulars can get pretty weird if you let them. That's why they got sent after pirates instead of civilized folk. I mean, they formed after loving with the FWLM for so long that they literally walked onto the Marik base and marched a full mech regiment out of it.
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Feb 15, 2013 03:39
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DEST and 7th Kommando have no mechs, so while they are special forces in the way that we know them today, they aren't mech special forces the way that the Death Commandos are. And Zeta Battalion is less a special forces than it is the Dragoons' personal Assault Guards. Great unit, sure, but they aren't doing a lot of infiltration work.
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Feb 15, 2013 03:46
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DEST are all Mechwarriors and tend to have a Panther on standby because Stackpole and Panthers. There's not really a lot of infiltration work down with mechs at all in Battletech though, aside from the occasional false-flag that Stackpole wrote into the Warrior Trilogy.
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Feb 15, 2013 03:52
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I think DC as mech special forces isn't so much that mechs are great special forces assets (how the gently caress do you sneak around in something 10+ meters tall that sets off seismographs for miles) but rather just as contrast to all the mechs as space knights stuff you got out of the other houses. Capellans don't use mechs for honorable battle: they use them for all the nasty little tools of statecraft we don't let the Davions talk about too much :stackpole:
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Feb 15, 2013 03:52
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Arquinsiel posted:DEST are all Mechwarriors and tend to have a Panther on standby because Stackpole and Panthers. There's not really a lot of infiltration work down with mechs at all in Battletech though, aside from the occasional false-flag that Stackpole wrote into the Warrior Trilogy. *looks that up* Huh, you're right. The DEST guys do use mechs. Then why the gently caress would you need to send the Genyosha to Styx if you coulda just sent the DEST guys in with their own machines in Warrior: En Garde? loving Stackpole. 
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Feb 15, 2013 04:02
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jng2058 posted:*looks that up* 
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Feb 15, 2013 04:06
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I don't think there's any fundamental problem with an elite military unit that's willing to do literally anything in the interest of the state and uses terror as a weapon. The issues is both that the Death Commandos have questionable execution in terms of design (DI's pretty much spot-on with "12 year old's first merc unit") and they're in the service of the setting's mustache-twirling villains, which forces them into the context of two-dimensional baddies trying fair Davion maidens to railroad tracks and stacking dynamite next to the orphanage. There's actually a lot of room for depth of character in the conflict between their duties to the state and any traces of humanity that might be left within them, but that would require writers other than Stackpole. See; PTN, focusing on "do what is necessary" and not "use puppies for kindling to burn down the school for the physically impaired" and turning the Death Commandos into engaging human beings.
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Feb 15, 2013 04:33
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Which is exactly why I'm pulling for the Death Commandos here. It is the one time they're guaranteed not to have a lovely writer working them over. They might still get worked over in the end (that remains to be seen), but at least it won't be a hack job. Plus, I still have faith they'll come up with something to make all you haters angry. 
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Feb 15, 2013 04:38
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Where Zaodai and I disagree is that, while he's happy to cheer on the bad guy, I don't WANT the CC to be some bad guy faction. That forces House Davion into the boring hero role, and to me, the Davion system is about as bad as the CC's, but they manage to be subtle about it. I see the Davions as coming in to some Capellan world and knocking everything over. Suddenly there's no support system for elder care or orphans because Davvies don't fund that, and no schools because education in the FS only happens on like seven planets (eight, before Galax went boom). It might be better in some ways, but it's worse in others. When you make one side North Korea, though, it becomes hard to argue in favor of it. Also if you ask a Davion why there is so much inequality in the FS he will tell it's because Outbackers are lazy and if they wanted education they shouldn't have been born poor.
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Feb 15, 2013 04:46
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Well, if we're talking about 'mech special forces, there is the FWL's Dark Shadows Battalion.
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Feb 15, 2013 04:55
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Defiance Industries posted:Also if you ask a Davion why there is so much inequality in the FS he will tell it's because Outbackers are lazy and if they wanted education they shouldn't have been born poor.
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Feb 15, 2013 04:58
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Arquinsiel posted:I'll tell you it's because there's basically zero centralised control over the citizenry and the running of any given planet is left up to that planet for the most part. The Outback has lovely schooling largely because nobody cares, and the dropship travelling schools are only so fast mang. Even the Mariks manage to do it better and they can't agree on anything except a need for people to shut up. If the Outback is still lovely after everywhere else, even the Periphery, is much better off between 3025 and 3085, it's because it's not Prince Mitt Davion's job to care about those people.
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Feb 15, 2013 05:04
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Basically yeah. The Prince's job is to see to the military protection of the Crucis Pact and the signatories thereof and bugger all else really. It's a proper federation of independant states.
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Feb 15, 2013 05:11
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Except that he did dump tons of money and energy into further developing the eight planets that were already really well off. The social support networks on Torrence are so well-funded you might think you were on a Capellan world. The NAIS provides free health care to people on New Avalon. So, the Prince definitely cares about the Haves.
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Feb 15, 2013 05:15
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Defiance Industries posted:Except that he did dump tons of money and energy into further developing the eight planets that were already really well off. The social support networks on Torrence are so well-funded you might think you were on a Capellan world. The NAIS provides free health care to people on New Avalon. So, the Prince definitely cares about the Haves. Well, the Federated Suns needs ditch diggers too.
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Feb 15, 2013 05:18
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The AFFS needs bodies to man foot infantry regiments and crew Vedettes. Educating them would only detract from the one purpose that a Feddie has in life: to serve the Davion military.
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Feb 15, 2013 05:21
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A military that uses Vedettes is going to need plenty of ditch-diggers, too
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Feb 15, 2013 05:33
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It's a good thing that House Davion as a power is about to get subsumed into House Kurita then.
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Feb 15, 2013 05:51
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Defiance Industries posted:Except that he did dump tons of money and energy into further developing the eight planets that were already really well off. The social support networks on Torrence are so well-funded you might think you were on a Capellan world. The NAIS provides free health care to people on New Avalon. So, the Prince definitely cares about the Haves.
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Feb 15, 2013 06:03
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They'll get their poo poo rocked by the Marik-Steiner Alliance in good time.
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Feb 15, 2013 06:04
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jng2058 posted:*looks that up* Although, that has been mostly forgotten in fiction. I mean, in the same book that Subhash Indrahar met his (amazing) end, they had a small army of DEST guys in ninja suits fighting all martial arts style against others, while a Merc crew did the "heavy lifting" in terms of mech fighting (IIRC, been a while since I read the book). http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Black_Dragon_%28novel%29 Side note, I poo poo you not, the Ninja pajamas that they wore? Bullet proof. Although not the fantasy bulletproof of "bullets bounce off", more the bullet proof of "bullets hit suit, suit distributes kinetic energy over a wider area".
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Feb 15, 2013 06:04
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Y'know, all this Death Commando talk touches on a core issue in fiction and perhaps one of the underlying motivations of this whole thread. In fiction without any one clear main authority (say a series with one author), people start to see each story's subjects, like the factions and characters, as bigger than the individual writers and stories in which they take part. There's a desire for more complexity and shades of grey (if only to get away from some of the nationalistic implications), and when writers fail to deliver on this it becomes a matter of blaming them for failing the setting. Now it doesn't help that many of the writers Battletech has endured have not been very good and have been careless with the setting. That's in part what drives this whole effort to "rewrite Inner Sphere history" - there's a desire to get it right, to write the story that could have been, draw the conclusions and make the comparisons that official authors are perceived as failing to do. I think there's something to this, but I don't want to ramble on too much. Still, it might be one of the undercurrents to discussions about who the bad guys really are in Battletech and all the comparisons of different states, regiments, characters and their war crimes and such.
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Feb 15, 2013 06:49
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The big, overriding reason to root for the Death Commandos (besides being GoonCompany) is that its nice to see the monstrous, fanatical praetorians of an evil police state actually, you know, demonstrate that they are as terrifyingly formidable as the good guys always claim they are. Usually in fiction these dudes go down like Vader's Finest and it really makes the whole situation ridiculous.
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Feb 15, 2013 07:15
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Dolash posted:Y'know, all this Death Commando talk touches on a core issue in fiction and perhaps one of the underlying motivations of this whole thread. In fiction without any one clear main authority (say a series with one author), people start to see each story's subjects, like the factions and characters, as bigger than the individual writers and stories in which they take part. There's a desire for more complexity and shades of grey (if only to get away from some of the nationalistic implications), and when writers fail to deliver on this it becomes a matter of blaming them for failing the setting.
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Feb 15, 2013 07:23
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Dolash posted:Now it doesn't help that many of the writers Battletech has endured have not been very good and have been careless with the setting. That's in part what drives this whole effort to "rewrite Inner Sphere history" - there's a desire to get it right, to write the story that could have been, draw the conclusions and make the comparisons that official authors are perceived as failing to do. That, and the fact that most of the people who care also play some sort of BT game, and tend to get emotionally attached to their particular faction. Plenty of people like straight-up Space Fascists because they were the protagonist faction for Mechwarrior 2.
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Feb 15, 2013 07:24
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Arquinsiel posted:To a point there's an element of this, but on the other hand due to the way things are written, and how the fluff of the game is segregated from the mechanics and knowledge needed to enjoy stompy robots and good stories, people tend to really read into only their chosen faction to any degree of depth beyond the five-line blurb in the starterbox. I went and bought Handbook House Davion from RPUK a while back just to read on the bus and can point to that to refute almost every anti-Davion point DI makes, but I can't really do poo poo to smear the Steiners beyond "uh... social generals... and money? I guess?" stereotypes because I've never cared enough to go read their sourcebook. Same as I know that the Draconis Combine has slavery, and the Capellan Confederation denies all that fancy "education" and "healthcare" to subjects without citizenship (percentage unknown, presumed "most"). Sometimes it's far more fun to just get irrationally attached to an imaginary government and sling mud than it is to admit that the shades of grey are what make the game itself fun in these contexts. It's basically discussing politics IRL but people hate you less. The Cappellan Confederation actually provides a decent amount of general welfare to their citizens. It's just that citizenry is earned, and can be revoked if you get out of line. That's why DI keeps labeling them as North Korea. It's all fairly communist and "Do as I say, or be thrown into the acid mines!", mixed with a bit of Dr. Fu Manchu type racism. Plus, anybody who has read the novels knows a fair amount about the Davions because so many of them revolved around the wrtiers sucking Victor Davions dick as he used his terrible leadership and poor decision making to "save" everyone.
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Feb 15, 2013 07:33
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jng2058 posted:He's saying that...   Zaodai posted:It is good to know you people are only capable of hating one thing at a time. I'm sure races the world over are overjoyed to know that racism doesn't exist against them, because somewhere an Indian is starving in their teepee. My joke failed worse than a SAFE operation 
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Feb 15, 2013 07:39
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Arquinsiel posted:To a point there's an element of this, but on the other hand due to the way things are written, and how the fluff of the game is segregated from the mechanics and knowledge needed to enjoy stompy robots and good stories, people tend to really read into only their chosen faction to any degree of depth beyond the five-line blurb in the starterbox. I went and bought Handbook House Davion from RPUK a while back just to read on the bus and can point to that to refute almost every anti-Davion point DI makes, but I can't really do poo poo to smear the Steiners beyond "uh... social generals... and money? I guess?" stereotypes because I've never cared enough to go read their sourcebook. Same as I know that the Draconis Combine has slavery, and the Capellan Confederation denies all that fancy "education" and "healthcare" to subjects without citizenship (percentage unknown, presumed "most"). Sometimes it's far more fun to just get irrationally attached to an imaginary government and sling mud than it is to admit that the shades of grey are what make the game itself fun in these contexts. It's basically discussing politics IRL but people hate you less. Bah, Handbook: House Davion was written by the NAIS press to spread Davion's propaganda. Despite the load he's trying to sell you, he's no better than a Capellan. But the key is that he shouldn't be WORSE than a Capellan either. The Houses are sometimes, and ideally should be, portrayed as a question of being good at some things, and bad at others, and the trick is to find one where the stuff it's bad at you kind of don't give a poo poo about. Cease to Hope posted:That, and the fact that most of the people who care also play some sort of BT game, and tend to get emotionally attached to their particular faction. Plenty of people like straight-up Space Fascists because they were the protagonist faction for Mechwarrior 2. That, and the fact that in my experience, a lot of the old-school BT vets are cryptofascists, so the social ideology is legitimately appealing. They're also mostly super-awkward so the idea of doing away with any kind of courtship plays well to them. Zaodai posted:The Cappellan Confederation actually provides a decent amount of general welfare to their citizens. It's just that citizenry is earned, and can be revoked if you get out of line. That's why DI keeps labeling them as North Korea. It's all fairly communist and "Do as I say, or be thrown into the acid mines!", mixed with a bit of Dr. Fu Manchu type racism. Capellan Citizenship only becomes a question after you turn 18 or 20 or whatever arbitrary age. Before then you get all the benefits automatically, so war orphans are well taken care of and they have universal literacy and such. But yeah, they take it away when you step out of line politically and then you get sent to a prison world like Brazen Heart or Highspire. If your patriotism is insufficient it usually isn't grounds alone but they do start looking for poo poo to throw at you.
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Feb 15, 2013 09:27
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When a government puts effort into ensuring its youth is cared for and educated, it's making an investment in its citizens and, therefore, its own future. The thing about being a citizen of the CapCon is that you want to make sure your investors get their money's worth. Or else.
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Feb 15, 2013 09:53
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Children are our future. But we can always make more children.
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Feb 15, 2013 09:54
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Zaodai posted:Children are our future. But we can always make more children. But flamethrowers are expensive. 
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Feb 15, 2013 11:41
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Arquinsiel posted:DEST are all Mechwarriors and tend to have a Panther on standby because Stackpole and Panthers. There's not really a lot of infiltration work down with mechs at all in Battletech though, aside from the occasional false-flag that Stackpole wrote into the Warrior Trilogy. DEST are trained to pilot `Mechs, but they're not Mechwarriors. Most of them are pretty terrible at it. Dolash posted:That's in part what drives this whole effort to "rewrite Inner Sphere history" - there's a desire to get it right, to write the story that could have been, draw the conclusions and make the comparisons that official authors are perceived as failing to do. It's not about "getting things right," it's about giving myself enough distance from the canon story that nobody'll get pissed when I inevitably forget that Marcus Kurita exists.
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Feb 15, 2013 12:30
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Looks like I'm not on the list. Can I be placed on the piloting list please? PoptartsNinja posted:
As someone who's never read a Battletech book, either way your writing is good and it makes for a good read.
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Feb 15, 2013 12:46
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Keru posted:But flamethrowers are expensive. No expense is too great for your children. 
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Feb 15, 2013 12:47
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Bad Moon posted:
Look at the bright side, your joke didn't fail as badly as a Clan Watch operation! 
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Feb 15, 2013 13:48
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