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pigdog posted:edit: People coming across the border from Russian side, signs of a struggle, and going back to the Russian side were confirmed by footprints. Crossing sovereign borders is a thing of theirs now.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:28
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It's always important to remember that the collapse of Soviet power was taken as a sign that Capitalism Really Was Right by a ton of people, so no surprise that it was easy to convince people in positions of power afterwards to try to go whole hog recreating it. At the same time higher ups were playing shock therapy, lower levels of society were falling into one multi-level marketing scam or ponzi scheme after another, many honestly not understanding the rules of how to invest in a capitalist world and thus suckered easily.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:29
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I obviously know nothing about Eastern Europe and Russia because just yesterday I said the Russians couldn't possibly be that stupid to do anything to provoke the Baltic states but clearly I am full of poo poo. Regardless of who abducted the Estonian officer, he's still an officer and represents the government of Estonia. As for Russia and the brand of Capitalism they developed after the collapse of the Soviet Union, apparently no one realized at the time that when Russia embraced Capitalism it was going to be a version that Russians understood. Russians are very very very slow to change anything political, social or economic. It has always been this way and that's just the way Russians want it to be. Russians don't like fast, sweeping changes. As for calling Ukraine the Ukraine: It's not the Germany or the Poland, and it sounds just as stupid when you put that article before Ukraine. I knew I forgot to put something in the new OP yesterday.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:32
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Zudgemud posted:I would guess any organized crime worth it's salt would have no problem obtaining either smoke grenades or a radiojammer and get through a border "undetected" in land so infested with corruption as Russia. These are not street thugs, these can be semicriminal billion dollar enterprises with huge networks and logistical support. If it was the Mafia, it was also brilliantly timed, since in the current situation, most people will think immediately "Oh no Russia strikes again".
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Sep 5, 2014 16:38
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Libluini posted:If it was the Mafia, it was also brilliantly timed, since in the current situation, most people will think immediately "Oh no Russia strikes again". And everyone immediately did  Seriously, a mafia abduction isn't that hard to swallow.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:39
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Libluini posted:If it was the Mafia, it was also brilliantly timed, since in the current situation, most people will think immediately "Oh no Russia strikes again". Criminals are not stupid, it does not seem like it was "brilliantly timed", it seems like common sense to do it while some other entity might get some poo poo for it instead of you.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:46
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Zohar posted:I think what you've really struck at the heart of is the difference between the type of analysis which views this period of globalisation as basically a conspiracy, and people like me and you (I think) who see this, at least in its international dimension, as to do with performativity, ingrained ideology, and basically people doing what they think is best even to the extent of doublethink -- rather than just a cynical ploy. All that said I don't want to derail yet another thread into a highly abstract political theory discussion so I'll leave it at that.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:50
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orcane posted:You're laughable, as usual. For a start that's not our call to make. It sends the message that spheres of influence are an acceptable concept in 2014 and Ukraine (and whatever country Putin wants influence over next) has no agency and we should just back down whenever Putin's feelings are hurt. Actually, it is entirely "our" call to make. NATO decides who gets to join NATO, not Ukraine. Whether or not spheres of influence hurt your delicate sensibilities could not possibly have less relevance to this debate; major powers have spheres of influence. They always have, and always will. That doesn't make it okay, but endlessly bleating "Russia shouldn't have a sphere of influence!  " isn't going to stop Russia from having a sphere of influence - nor is there much the US can do at this point to stop them from having one.quote:Equally laughable is that you think this will solve anything. Putin the Strongman doesn't care about promises. He cares about facts and if he can just invade and occupy his neighbours why should he negotiate a contract. Because all available evidence suggests that he's not interested in rampant conquest - he's interested in having a weak, divided Ukraine that isn't part of NATO. Who would he try to conquer, anyway? NATO countries? He's not an idiot. e: Also, you don't get to call other people laughable when you make statements as idiotic as this: quote:We tried this in moderation and it didn't work, Yeah, no we didn't, actually. We put out a statement saying "These states [Georgia and Ukraine] will join NATO" and built ABM sites in Russia's backyard. Before the crisis even started, the National Endowment for Democracy's president, Carl Gershman, wrote this in the Washington Post: quote:Ukraines choice to join Europe will accelerate the demise of the ideology of Russian imperialism that Putin represents. [...] Russians, too, face a choice, and Putin may find himself on the losing end not just in the near abroad but within Russia itself. Statements and actions like these may make you personally feel all warm and fuzzy inside, but acting like they won't have consequences is the height of idiocy. Majorian fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Sep 5, 2014 |
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Sep 5, 2014 16:52
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I'd argue that spheres of influence are an increasingly outdated concept in an era of :friedman: globalization, and that their primary use is now rhetorical.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:57
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Forgall posted:Do you think the same is true of the policies that caused crisis of 2008, current austerity in Europe etc? Russia just embraced neoliberalism with the fervor of a fresh convert. With the focus on austerity and privatizing every single remaining public service, Europe is going towards where Russia was in the 90s. Just slightly slower. So it's a good thing that Putin is extending Russian territory westward. In about twenty years, Europeans will welcome him as a liberator, hoping that he would send the oligarchs to the gulag.
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Sep 5, 2014 16:58
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StashAugustine posted:And everyone immediately did Neeever mind, of course it was FSB.  http://itar-tass.com/proisshestviya/1423990
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Sep 5, 2014 17:05
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Nintendo Kid posted:It's always important to remember that the collapse of Soviet power was taken as a sign that Capitalism Really Was Right by a ton of people, so no surprise that it was easy to convince people in positions of power afterwards to try to go whole hog recreating it. hmm. no, I don't think so - if you examine what the hardliners wrote in 1991, their main opposition was not to capitalism but to the weakness of the USSR from perestroika (and they were not exactly wrong, were they?). Conversely, the main priority of the reformers, in 1991, was not the wholesale dismantling of the Soviet system that eventually occurred, but the decentralization and devolution of power in order to discourage further secession in the face of ethnic nationalism, often unsubtly sponsored by the West in the name of freedom (I trust the parallels are obvious).
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Sep 5, 2014 17:06
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Discendo Vox posted:I'd argue that spheres of influence are an increasingly outdated concept in an era of :friedman: globalization, and that their primary use is now rhetorical. It would be nice if they were outdated, but unfortunately, political development isn't always linear. States or regions sometimes move away from globalization and back towards protecting perceived regional and parochial interests. Plus, let's face the facts, a lot of "globalized" economic powers still have spheres of influence.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:06
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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:I obviously know nothing about Eastern Europe and Russia because just yesterday I said the Russians couldn't possibly be that stupid to do anything to provoke the Baltic states but clearly I am full of poo poo. Regardless of who abducted the Estonian officer, he's still an officer and represents the government of Estonia. This seems, uh, very serious indeed.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:08
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Discendo Vox posted:I'd argue that spheres of influence are an increasingly outdated concept in an era of :friedman: globalization, and that their primary use is now rhetorical. maybe. gas pipelines are so expensive to install that they're pretty effective at dividing Europe into blocs
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Sep 5, 2014 17:09
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My Imaginary GF posted:Sure sounds like appeasement. At least, as Kennedy argues, Chamberlain only appeased to give time to rebuild the military. We don't need to rebuild our military; we don't need to appease. We're not the ones invading another nation without a mandate after being warned not to. No, but we do need Russia's support on a host of other geopolitical issues. It would only be appeasement if we had other options beyond what we've been doing already, but we really don't. As powerful as we are, we can't actually project it that effectively into Ukraine without potentially triggering a war with Russia, and that would certainly be a worse outcome than anything we're looking at right now. quote:The more I think on it, why should we promise Russia anything? I was unaware that Russia had a voice in who NATO accepts as members. If they want that voice, perhaps they should apply for membership. Yeltsin actually really stuck his neck out to try to join NATO, and NATO snubbed him. It was a really big mistake on NATO's part.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:17
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pigdog posted:Neeever mind, of course it was FSB. So if Google translate is any good (probably not) that article is saying that the FSB caught the guy inside Russia, yet we have evidence the guy was abducted. What the hell are they thinking in Russia? What good can come off this?
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Sep 5, 2014 17:18
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Gorau posted:So if Google translate is any good (probably not) that article is saying that the FSB caught the guy inside Russia, yet we have evidence the guy was abducted. What the hell are they thinking in Russia? What good can come off this? TASS has an English translation of the piece now: quote:An officer of the Estonian security police was detained on Friday on the territory of Russias north-western Pskov region while he was conducting an undercover operation, the public relations center of the Federal Security Service told ITAR-TASS.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:21
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Jesus gently caress, why would they antagonize Estonia right after Obama's speech there? Yo Estonia, can we station an aircraft carrier over there?
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Sep 5, 2014 17:24
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Pellisworth posted:Jesus gently caress, why would they antagonize Estonia right after Obama's speech there? To make a point, presumably. 
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Sep 5, 2014 17:25
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This is an act of war, isn't it? And right after Obama promised to have Estonia's back. I guess we're really gonna see how well Article 5 stands. Jesus loving Christ, Putin just put the ball rolling for WWIII. What a loving inhuman piece of poo poo.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:27
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Fintilgin posted:To make a point, presumably. Yup: "Don't interfere directly, NATO." Finlander posted:This is an act of war, isn't it? And right after Obama promised to have Estonia's back. I guess we're really gonna see how well Article 5 stands. I think you may be overreacting.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:27
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Pellisworth posted:Jesus gently caress, why would they antagonize Estonia right after Obama's speech there? "Get hosed Americans, this is our territory"
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Sep 5, 2014 17:27
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From @bishopk (BBC journo):quote:Just been invited to a DNR presser in Moscow NEXT TUESDAY about Kiev troops breaking the ceasefire that's been in place for 6 minutes now.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:31
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pigdog posted:Neeever mind, of course it was FSB. Well am I glad I didn't toxx on that.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:32
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OddObserver posted:From @bishopk (BBC journo): For all my criticisms of NATO policy, let it never be said that I don't think the separatist leaders are truly awful people, because I definitely do. HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:As for calling Ukraine the Ukraine: It's not the Germany or the Poland, and it sounds just as stupid when you put that article before Ukraine. I knew I forgot to put something in the new OP yesterday. To be fair, that is the grammatically correct way to say it in Russian. But yeah, I try to call Ukraine what most Ukrainians want their country to be called.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:34
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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:Russians don't like fast, sweeping changes. What are you even talking about? Have you been to Moscow or St Petersburg in the last 20 years? In other unrelated news apparently US can willy nilly airstrike whatever the gently caress and nobody says anything about any type of "acts of aggression" or "war crime" http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-29038360 I can completely see why the only thing Putin cares about is maintaining somewhat of a relationship with Europe. Although its not worried about sanctions. Plenty of opportunity for South American and Asian traders to fill any gaps.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:34
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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:As for calling Ukraine the Ukraine: It's not the Germany or the Poland, and it sounds just as stupid when you put that article before Ukraine. I knew I forgot to put something in the new OP yesterday. If I put 'the' in front of every country, then can I do it?
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Sep 5, 2014 17:36
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Itar-Tass: FSB arrested an Estonian security official in Russia, with pistol, money & spy gear. Estonia says he was abducted from Estonia. Who is telling the truth? Who is feeding us lies? Anyway there is no way this timing is a coincidence, not after Obama being in Tallinn just yesterday.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:36
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Can someone finally assassinate Putin, please?
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Sep 5, 2014 17:36
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Fabulous Knight posted:Itar-Tass: FSB arrested an Estonian security official in Russia, with pistol, money & spy gear. Estonia says he was abducted from Estonia. Impossible to know for sure, but given that it's the FSB...probably reasonable to be skeptical of their version. Lucy Heartfilia posted:Can someone finally assassinate Putin, please? Please don't wish this. He will almost certainly be replaced by someone much, much, MUCH worse.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:38
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pigdog posted:Neeever mind, of course it was FSB. You have got to be making GBS threads me...
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Sep 5, 2014 17:38
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Can someone finally assassinate Putin, please? Why?
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Sep 5, 2014 17:39
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Majorian posted:I think you may be overreacting. Well, now that Putin's kidnapping people from across the border, in loving NATO COUNTRIES, no less, what's gonna be next? Will he start funding terror acts in Europe, as well? Will we be seeing people get "disappeared" for speaking against Russia in western countries, now that Putin thinks that he can do whatever the gently caress he wants? And how will NATO react? Can they really just shrug at Russia, the very reason that NATO was created, doing the exact loving thing that NATO was created to fight against? Mark my words, unless Putin is put to the ground and quick, we'll be seeing an outright war within a few years. He's completely lost his sense of reality and has decided to murder everyone he can.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:39
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Majorian posted:To be fair, that is the grammatically correct way to say it in Russian. But yeah, I try to call Ukraine what most Ukrainians want their country to be called. No it isn't. There aren't any articles in the Russian language.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:41
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Majorian posted:Impossible to know for sure, but given that it's the FSB...probably reasonable to be skeptical of their version. I was trying to be sarcastic more than anything. Being skeptical of the FSB version is a safe bet to say the least.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:41
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Finlander posted:Well, now that Putin's kidnapping people from across the border, in loving NATO COUNTRIES, no less, what's gonna be next? Will he start funding terror acts in Europe, as well? Will we be seeing people get "disappeared" for speaking against Russia in western countries, now that Putin thinks that he can do whatever the gently caress he wants? What are you on about? Where does it say anything about dude being kidnapped?
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Sep 5, 2014 17:42
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Can someone finally assassinate Putin, please? Finlander posted:Mark my words, unless Putin is put to the ground and quick, we'll be seeing an outright war within a few years. He's completely lost his sense of reality and has decided to murder everyone he can. Awww, they actually think it would change Russian policy!  Much like the US, Russia isn't magically run by just one person. There's always someone willing to take the reins and continue with the status quo.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:43
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Majorian posted:Impossible to know for sure, but given that it's the FSB...probably reasonable to be skeptical of their version. Given what's transpired this year, I think it's fair to be rather skeptical of any claims coming out of the Russian government. Unrelated, when Pubes locked the last thread, did he lock the Peon in with it?
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Sep 5, 2014 17:43
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DrPop posted:No it isn't. There aren't any articles in the Russian language. No, but when using it with a preposition, it's "на Украине," ie: "on the Ukraine," which is to say "on the edge/frontier." It's not "in Ukraine."
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Sep 5, 2014 17:44
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