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Gripweed posted:Right, the Taliban are invincible and Afghanis can't be trained to tie their shoes. Cmon, listen to yourself, that is such an obvious excuse. The troops failed. We don't need to pretend to respect the troops anymore, they've done nothing to earn respect in the past 70 years. They are if I tell you to do a job that you can't do with the tools you have. If the US military had killed every person in Afghanistan and "won" would you consider that a reason to have Veterans day? I don't "respect the troops" in the weird way that a lot of idiots appear to believe they should. But I do see broken people coming back from something horrible and, like all people, the Poor Bloody Infantry probably needs help. I don't give a tin poo poo about generals and so on ofc. But in your case it's just "gently caress YOU FOR LOSING" which is just morally indefensible.
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Aug 15, 2021 16:30
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The soldiers didn't fail in Afghanistan the planners who should've been creating the post Taliban state did. I'm too tired to argue arguments I've already done on here, but the US poured more money into Afghanistan than into the entirety of the Marshall plan. Lack of local knowledge, incredible amounts of corruption, pointless photo op building projects, and a constant one foot out the door mentality meant that the reconstruction was a pure farce.
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Aug 15, 2021 16:43
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I mean, the records are clear even on SA back in the early 00s when the war started. Everyone knew it was a hopelessly corrupt charade for war business from day one. No one could be bothered to pretend otherwise. It was always a funnel to get a lot of really evil people paid, and now they're cashing out, and the front theater is playing its part. How is this even a discussion?
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Aug 15, 2021 17:25
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WATCH BUSH START A loving WAR
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Aug 15, 2021 17:29
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Henchman of Santa posted:Doing a bizarre reversal of "respect the troops but not the war" is possibly the worst take in this thread, and I am not exactly a troop respecter! I don't respect the war either. But setting aside the morality of the whole endeavor, it is undeniable that the troops spectacularly failed at the task set for them. And now the world must live with the ramifications of their failure
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Aug 15, 2021 17:33
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The one respectable troop is Jimmy "Gun Shoot" Jones who single handedly rounded up the Taliban and ISIL and Cobra and Al Queso because he was so good at his job lol what kind of big brain genius thinks of a complex multinational military operation as a pick-up game between teams that is decided by the individual soldiers' skill
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Aug 15, 2021 17:45
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Whoops, didn't see there's another page. If the counterargument is that they aren't failures, they're rubes who were duped by an obvious flim flam, that just strengthens my original point. The troops do not deserve a single iota of respect.
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Aug 15, 2021 17:47
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I'd say no but despite enjoying true crime myself, you can't really deny a lot of it is ghoulish. The nature of the subject matter makes it more fraught than like, reading an uninsightful description of what it was like to be at Woodstock. To be fair a lot of True Crime stories involve the police loving something up and not doing their jobs
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Aug 15, 2021 17:51
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christmas boots posted:To be fair a lot of True Crime stories involve the police loving something up and not doing their jobs Gripweed posted:The troops do not deserve a single iota of respect.
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Aug 15, 2021 17:57
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The idea that they were duped is idiotic, tons of people knew what they were getting into but the system sucks and they took an out. Call them selfish or fash or whatever but lol
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Aug 15, 2021 18:24
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There's a lot to unpack about hating all members of the military, but I would point out that the poor and people of color are massively overrepresented in the soldier class so maybe it's not the super clever edgy opinion to have today
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Aug 15, 2021 18:44
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Manager Hoyden posted:There's a lot to unpack about hating all members of the military, but I would point out that the poor and people of color are massively overrepresented in the soldier class so maybe it's not the super clever edgy opinion to have today drat really? They should have mentioned that to the people of Afghanistan, maybe things would've gone better. "Yes we are a foreign occupying force in your country, bombing your cities and burning your fields. But we are also disproportionately poor and people of color. So if you get mad at us, it means you're racist" poo poo, they might've won if they'd tried that.
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Aug 15, 2021 19:03
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You should've fled to the woods and lived off the grid instead of paying their salaries then, if you cared about the people of Afghanistan, rear end in a top hat.
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Aug 15, 2021 19:26
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"The troops" are mercs and deserve all the respect of someone who wants to kill for money
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Aug 15, 2021 19:29
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Let’s not forget it was the American troops that single handedly stopped the Nazis and liberated the Jews tho
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Aug 15, 2021 19:33
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Saying some soldiers are poor or black or gay is the same dogshit argument that people make about cops. "ACAB? No cops at Pride? what about this list of three trans cops that I specifically have on hand to use in this defence?" gently caress that, anyone who joined the military after the Afghanistan invasion knew what they were doing and decided "bombing poorer people than me is fine"
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Aug 15, 2021 20:12
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Also I was curious about that narrative, and like two seconds of googling it says it's bullshit anyway. US: 60% white. US military: 70% white. Lol
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Aug 15, 2021 20:19
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Fashionable Jorts posted:Saying some soldiers are poor or black or gay is the same dogshit argument that people make about cops. The point I was making wasn't "gotcha you're a racist if you criticize group X" How about this - if you had to honestly guess, what is it about minorities that makes them twice as likely to join the military? Is it a natural bloodthirst? Do they have a natural predilection for killing people poorer than themselves? Fashionable Jorts posted:Also I was curious about that narrative, and like two seconds of googling it says it's bullshit anyway. US: 13% black US enlisted: 24% black Manager Hoyden has a new favorite as of 20:26 on Aug 15, 2021 |
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Aug 15, 2021 20:20
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In women, a third of the enlisted are black. Strongly suspect the same people calling them mercs use those women as cudgels when it comes to say, the overwhelming sexual abuse they face, that the same military fails to address? Comparing it to cops is loving stupid. There isn't the same overwhelming institutional benefit to joining the cops. The PD won't pay for college, the PD won't give a 17-year-old from a poo poo high school and no job experience a 30k salary and full living costs covered while they do the job. Nobody thinks the situation is good but people who think it's identical or that some desk jockey staff sergeant is lusting for or contributing to baby bombing any more than millions upon millions of "leftist" computer janitors for the corporations profiting from US foreign policy, whose contribution to changing anything is "posting," is dumb. Also it's really telling that any time someone does the gotcha they make no distinction between officers and enlisted. The enlisted are more minority than the US general pop, the officers get whiter and whiter the higher the rank. Shocking. Edgar Allen Ho has a new favorite as of 20:44 on Aug 15, 2021 |
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Aug 15, 2021 20:41
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Manager Hoyden posted:The point I was making wasn't "gotcha you're a racist if you criticize group X" Yes that is definitely what I was saying, thank you for not deliberately taking what I'm saying disengenously.
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Aug 15, 2021 20:49
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Fashionable Jorts posted:Yes that is definitely what I was saying, thank you for not deliberately taking what I'm saying disengenously. No, I was serious. I wasn't being sarcastic or accusing. I know you're not a racist and I wasn't implying that you are. For real, why are black Americans twice as likely to join the military?
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Aug 15, 2021 20:51
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Manager Hoyden posted:No, I was serious. I wasn't being sarcastic or accusing. I know you're not a racist and I wasn't implying that you are. For real, why are black Americans twice as likely to join the military? They aren't? Ive looked at like a dozen stats from various sources and years, and almost all of them say that the military has a greater ratio of white to non-white people compared to the general population. And that includes separate stats for enlisted, officer, and active duty. There was one that placed it at 55%, compared to the US census of 60%, but most hover around 70% So unless there's some secret military out there that doesn't release its stats, it seems untrue that minorities are more likely to join the military. Edit: if you look at only women in the military, it's much lower
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Aug 15, 2021 20:56
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And I understand, POC are more likely to be poor, and poor people are more likely to see the military as a method of getting ahead in life. Still not an excuse. If a person's way of empowering themselves is to murder civilians, they are a bad person. Sure, they might have a slightly better reason for doing it than the white kid sitting next to them in the drone control room, but at the end of the day they're still blowing up children. Like do I get a free pass on some warcrimes because I'm trans? I'm just being a girlboss!
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Aug 15, 2021 21:10
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US white pop: 76.3% US white pop, enlisted active-duty military: 54% of women and 70% of men US black pop: 13.4% Enlisted: 29% of women and 17% of men US hispanic pop: 18.5% Enlisted, 20% of women and 18% of men Asians are the only minority underrepresented in the enlisted vs the general population. And I really can't state this enough, when you compare them to cops consider how many cops are unrepentant careerists vs the same for the enlisted. Consider how the cops train you to be a cop and the military sucks you in with the chance that you might get paid to learn a skill like being a navy nuke that other people go into massive debt for. Consider how many people get out after 4 or 6 years and horribly regret in the military vs how many cops stay until retirement. The system is hosed but it is not the same. Fashionable Jorts posted:And I understand, POC are more likely to be poor, and poor people are more likely to see the military as a method of getting ahead in life. What do you think most people in the military do? Like, you're taking an 18-year-old who took a government desk job for four years (and could not quit if they regretted it by 20) instead of hitting up the local dollar general and saying they're responsible for war crimes. They're as responsible for war crimes as anyone who works for the US and frankly about as culpable as anyone who buys coke products. Edgar Allen Ho has a new favorite as of 21:19 on Aug 15, 2021 |
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Aug 15, 2021 21:13
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Fashionable Jorts posted:They aren't? I guess I was just looking at the army. Statista says the overall military enlisted ranks are 17% black, which is still a 30% overrepresentation.
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Aug 15, 2021 21:14
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Shibawanko posted:i hate temperature advice bullshit geared towards people who are always cold Yeah 25 is way too cold to be comfortable!!!
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Aug 15, 2021 21:32
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:What do you think most people in the military do? See there's this law in most US states that is interesting. Let's say you plan a bank robbery, and you're involved in the background stuff. Maybe you just got the blueprints, or cut the phone lines, or are the getaway driver and you never even step foot inside the bank. One of the goons you work with shoots and kills a security guard, even though that was never part of the plan. You're now guilty of murder. Same think of you're just doing paperwork - you're doing paperwork for an organization that is designed to, and primarily engages in killing civilians. You're not a customer buying Coke products, you're an employee making sure that Coke's Death Squads have adequate dental coverage and their union-beheading machetes aren't rusting.
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Aug 15, 2021 21:34
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Fashionable Jorts posted:See there's this law in most US states that is interesting. Let's say you plan a bank robbery, and you're involved in the background stuff. Maybe you just got the blueprints, or cut the phone lines, or are the getaway driver and you never even step foot inside the bank. One of the goons you work with shoots and kills a security guard, even though that was never part of the plan. I agree with you point but that's a very bad law.
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Aug 15, 2021 21:46
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Gripweed posted:I agree with you point but that's a very bad law. How so? Not arguing or being belligerent, I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on it, as I'm not American and don't see the negative effects of it.
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Aug 15, 2021 21:48
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Like, you're taking an 18-year-old who took a government desk job for four years (and could not quit if they regretted it by 20) instead of hitting up the local dollar general and saying they're responsible for war crimes. They're as responsible for war crimes as anyone who works for the US and frankly about as culpable as anyone who buys coke products. I think people have lost sight of this. So many people signing up are 17 or 18 year old high school kids. Are yall really going to rest the morality of the war on their shoulders and not on the politicians who send them? Do you really think they're all out there gunning down civilians and laughing about how happy they are to have joined up? https://youtu.be/Kx5LDLYmEQI
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Aug 15, 2021 21:49
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Fashionable Jorts posted:See there's this law in most US states that is interesting. Let's say you plan a bank robbery, and you're involved in the background stuff. Maybe you just got the blueprints, or cut the phone lines, or are the getaway driver and you never even step foot inside the bank. One of the goons you work with shoots and kills a security guard, even though that was never part of the plan. I don't think you can get charged with murder if you haven't been accused of directly killing someone. I think you are making this up. edit: or are misunderstanding the law silence_kit has a new favorite as of 21:56 on Aug 15, 2021 |
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Aug 15, 2021 21:52
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silence_kit posted:I don't think you can get charged with murder if you haven't been accused of directly killing someone. I think you are making this up. He's talking about felony murder. It's not universal but it is a law. The usual example is the get away driver being hit with felony murder when a robber kills someone.
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Aug 15, 2021 21:57
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Fashionable Jorts posted:I'm not American My condolences
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Aug 15, 2021 22:48
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Ugly In The Morning posted:I’ve read some absolutely fantastic war literature but it has a level of insight you don’t see in true crime. A war memoir or novel from someone who’s been there can at least present what the subjective experience was like and what it did to the author. True crime rarely goes above “here’s what happened” and speculation and theories. That's why this is the pinnacle of crime reporting 
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Aug 15, 2021 23:38
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Fashionable Jorts posted:How so? Because it means people who didn't commit murder go to jail for life. You shouldn't be punished for a crime you didn't commit. If your friends told you they were going to hold up a liquor store, just wait outside and drive for them, and you do, you didn't commit a murder. I think it's important for you to understand that this is part of the American justice system, and as such it is used in the most absurd, racist, and cruel way possible. Like these five teens who were convicted of felony murder because a cop shot their friend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1MSRZiE1GY
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Aug 16, 2021 00:45
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Gripweed posted:Because it means people who didn't commit murder go to jail for life. You shouldn't be punished for a crime you didn't commit. If your friends told you they were going to hold up a liquor store, just wait outside and drive for them, and you do, you didn't commit a murder. That makes sense, and not surprising it's used for racism. I had only really heard of it in cases involving organized crime, and it didn't seem so out of place in those sort of criminal cases (so you can actually go after mob bosses or whatever)
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Aug 16, 2021 01:02
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I mean, gonna be a shocker and point out that a lot of Organized Crime in the US was also run by people historically considered minorities (Irish, Italian) so coming up with laws that allow enforcers and prosecutors to be extra vicious is 100% in-keeping with the Colonial tradition.
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Aug 16, 2021 01:11
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Stainless steel appliances are a scourge. I hate that they've become the norm, they look like poo poo and make weird noise when you look at them.
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Aug 16, 2021 23:56
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mind the walrus posted:I mean, gonna be a shocker and point out that a lot of Organized Crime in the US was also run by people historically considered minorities (Irish, Italian) so coming up with laws that allow enforcers and prosecutors to be extra vicious is 100% in-keeping with the Colonial tradition. The Yakuza in Japan has a high immigrant population, it’s not just a US thing. PHUO: Yeah firefly was overrated but I was just watching it on Hulu and it’s really good, I forgot how excellent it was
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Aug 17, 2021 00:09
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Fashionable Jorts posted:See there's this law in most US states that is interesting. Let's say you plan a bank robbery, and you're involved in the background stuff. Maybe you just got the blueprints, or cut the phone lines, or are the getaway driver and you never even step foot inside the bank. One of the goons you work with shoots and kills a security guard, even though that was never part of the plan. Using one bullshit law you yourself hate, to own literal children who want to be nuclear engineers and prevent climate disaster instead of service or retail, who weren't born when the war started, and btw the law was made before my nearly 30 rear end was born, instead of "oh, hmm, perhaps this system is hosed up." Also your interpretation of the US military is pants-on-head stupid. If you hate death squads the CIA and DoS and yes, Coca-Cola are what you want to look at, not the enlisted randos, but I get it, you're angry and clueless. I am too. poo poo, again, look at the amount of career cops vs the amount of enlisted who come out at first opportunity going "gently caress the military it wasn't worth it." It's so loving dumb. And that's the ones who come out willfully, not dudes like my cousin who got his leg blown off to try and get into engineering school or my dad who volunteered for Vietnam at 17 to get citizenship and shot himself over the regret. Himself being the only person he ever shot. Take your righteous posting and shove it in your rear end. You ever actually do poo poo for the cause? Edgar Allen Ho has a new favorite as of 00:43 on Aug 17, 2021 |
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Aug 17, 2021 00:35
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