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instead it should be even more lopsided every time you invade, the seed of giants effect is in place immediately; a dragon spawns and bombards you wherever you go; the floor is replaced with damage tiles but only for you; your estus now poisons rather than heals you; you have the maximum hollowing effect from dark souls 2 active by default; all of your weapons and armor are constantly degrading
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Jun 25, 2016 00:30
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Manatee Cannon posted:all of your weapons and armor are constantly degrading Finally, the durability system might have a reason to exist!
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Jun 25, 2016 00:32
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Jordbo posted:So, in addition to: The landscape is invading a solo host being much rarer than previous games, leading to complaints of constant 'gank squads'. I'm just pointing out the reasons that this is happening and I've got the previous two games as proof. Invading hosts with a bunch of phantoms still happened, but much less often. And the reason people are summoning more phantoms is that there are more invaders. It's not complicated, if there are fewer invaders, there will be fewer phantoms and more one on one invasions. Which is a good thing if that's what you want. Invaders have other options for healing, such as miracles and warmth. Invaders got by just fine in the previous games where everything you mentioned still happened, so don't try to make out like you're so hard done by. Hunter charms are barely effective and usually just result in a lot of running around, making the fight even more annoying. Fights get less fun the longer they go on for, and invaders having estus causes them to often take quite a long time. That said, I've got no problem giving the invader estus if there are phantoms in the world too. Also the giant seed can very easily be used against the host a lot of the time. Yardbomb posted:Noooope. A whole lot of people summon phantoms to basically win the game for them in general with no thought to PvP of it, there'd still be a goofy amount of people with 2 phantoms gorilla glued to their rear end regardless. Also the problem would still be there even if that somehow dramatically reduced the number, because the system still weights super hard to finding you any and all hosts with phantoms around first anyway. Sure, but if there are fewer people summoning phantoms, you'll get summoned into worlds with phantoms less often. And there will be fewer people summoning phantoms with fewer invaders. Internet Kraken posted:
Being more difficult to set up doesn't mean they won't be more enjoyable though?
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Jun 25, 2016 00:32
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"Well make invasions more enjoyable by making them hard to setup"
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The problem is that outside of the actual lamers that specifically summon to wait for invaders, the huge rest of players I almost guarantee you are not summoning buddies to ward off reds, a lot of them are summoning just because it's there.
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Jun 25, 2016 00:36
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Yardbomb posted:The problem is that outside of the actual lamers that specifically summon to wait for invaders, the huge rest of players I almost guarantee you are not summoning buddies to ward off reds, a lot of them are summoning just because it's there. Yeah, actual gank squads are relatively rare, someone just going through the level with a bunch of phantoms is not a gank squad after all, and yeah some people just summon phantoms because that's what they enjoy while others do it because they're worried about getting invaded. And I can say from previous experience that the latter group is large enough that if they stopped summoning you'd see a significant increase in one on one invasions.
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Jun 25, 2016 00:46
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yea there are plenty of players out there who aren't that confident playing alone and/or hate getting invaded I'd say the contingent that hates being invaded vastly outnumbers the pvp crowd, they just tend to be the ones that play once and call it quits at the credits
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Jun 25, 2016 00:57
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Jaaam posted:Being more difficult to set up doesn't mean they won't be more enjoyable though? Yes it does because it means its harder to try new stuff on a new character. It also means less people will invade which is bad for people who actually like fighting other players and aren't giant babies about dying occasionally.
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Jun 25, 2016 01:47
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Internet Kraken posted:Yes it does because it means its harder to try new stuff on a new character. It also means less people will invade which is bad for people who actually like fighting other players and aren't giant babies about dying occasionally. Well if you prefer invasions as they are now then that's cool, we just disagree. But if you've been complaining about gank squads or whatever, well I'm saying that the easily obtained orb is one of the reasons it happens so much. Also there are other ways to fight other players without invading you know. Invading isn't about the combat, it's about kicking over the other kid's sandcastle, loving with them and making their life harder just like real dark spirits do to people in real life.
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Jun 25, 2016 02:01
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I must be the outlier since i have had very few problems with PvP. I constantly invade, have racked up 60+ shackles/tongues each, and find that even against multiple enemies I have a chance to make my shots count. also if anybody wants some shackles i still have 30+ sitting in my inventory
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Jun 25, 2016 02:16
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Jaaam posted:The landscape is invading a solo host being much rarer than previous games, leading to complaints of constant 'gank squads'. I'm just pointing out the reasons that this is happening and I've got the previous two games as proof. Invading hosts with a bunch of phantoms still happened, but much less often. And the reason people are summoning more phantoms is that there are more invaders. It's not complicated, if there are fewer invaders, there will be fewer phantoms and more one on one invasions. Which is a good thing if that's what you want. the reason people are summoning more is because its a lot easier, not because there are more invaders. garg area is always a hell scape of low level invaders 24h but people dont summon defenders because you get constant summoning failed. gank squads werent that big of a problem in 1 and 2 anyway due to the nature of combat in it. you could twink yourself out to murder people pretty well so ganks werent a big deal. this time around if you cant kill people in 2 hits theyll get full health back and the means to punish healing arent as good as they were in 2. plus invading is a lot more ballanced so you have to think pretty hard to get a big advantage over the host damage wise. basically invading is the most ballanced its ever been while the host is strongest he as ever been too. in 1 invader had a big advantage compared to the host and 2 you could punish chugging so who cares what the advantage was.
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Jun 25, 2016 02:27
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Iretep posted:the reason people are summoning more is because its a lot easier, not because there are more invaders. garg area is always a hell scape of low level invaders 24h but people dont summon defenders because you get constant summoning failed. gank squads werent that big of a problem in 1 and 2 anyway due to the nature of combat in it. you could twink yourself out to murder people pretty well so ganks werent a big deal. this time around if you cant kill people in 2 hits theyll get full health back and the means to punish healing arent as good as they were in 2. plus invading is a lot more ballanced so you have to think pretty hard to get a big advantage over the host damage wise. basically invading is the most ballanced its ever been while the host is strongest he as ever been too. in 1 invader had a big advantage compared to the host and 2 you could punish chugging so who cares what the advantage was. Maybe it was a console thing, but I had tons of issues with gank squads in 1. Especially near the kiln where lots of people liked to duel. I would often get summoned and see people waiting behind rubble and stuff. 2 I had basically no problems with gankers outside of the bell areas, but then I also cheesed the hell out of those encounters. Especially when I could summon Glencour in SotFS. Just wait to get invaded and turn the tables on em! Pretty fun to farm chunks that way.
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Jun 25, 2016 02:38
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Iretep posted:the reason people are summoning more is because its a lot easier, not because there are more invaders. garg area is always a hell scape of low level invaders 24h but people dont summon defenders because you get constant summoning failed. gank squads werent that big of a problem in 1 and 2 anyway due to the nature of combat in it. you could twink yourself out to murder people pretty well so ganks werent a big deal. this time around if you cant kill people in 2 hits theyll get full health back and the means to punish healing arent as good as they were in 2. plus invading is a lot more ballanced so you have to think pretty hard to get a big advantage over the host damage wise. basically invading is the most ballanced its ever been while the host is strongest he as ever been too. in 1 invader had a big advantage compared to the host and 2 you could punish chugging so who cares what the advantage was. Personally I've gotten more summon failed in this one than 2, probably about as often as 1 for me. Though that is a fair point, I think both are likely a factor since 2 was fine for summons for most people and didn't have the same prevalence of that type of invasion. It's a rich tapestry.
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Jun 25, 2016 02:45
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Fire Barrel posted:Maybe it was a console thing, but I had tons of issues with gank squads in 1. Especially near the kiln where lots of people liked to duel. I would often get summoned and see people waiting behind rubble and stuff. 2 I had basically no problems with gankers outside of the bell areas, but then I also cheesed the hell out of those encounters. Especially when I could summon Glencour in SotFS. Just wait to get invaded and turn the tables on em! Pretty fun to farm chunks that way. i never invaded the kiln area so i wouldnt know how that area is. forest also always has gank squads for whatever reason. but its another area i rarely invade in because its a fight club area too. but this isnt really about dedicated pvp areas, in 2 and 3 gank squads happen literally everywhere.
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Jun 25, 2016 02:52
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Welp that's it. This person has won fashion souls. FAT DANCER. 
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Jun 25, 2016 04:28
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Only thing that would make that better is the smough thunder thighs
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Jun 25, 2016 04:38
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Yeah the drang set is soo last game. Other guy looking sharp though.
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Jun 25, 2016 04:46
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Casters dont have much choice
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Jun 25, 2016 05:21
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Is there a weapon that has a weapon skill that rapidly moves you toward the enemy and then attack? Like the straight sword stance-R2 but without having to go through stance. It could jump or slide or charge, I don't really care but I want a close-distance-and-attack at the push of a button, basically.
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Jun 25, 2016 05:22
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Just a reminder that invading as a sunbro prioritizes worlds with invaders in them already. You can get some sweet 2v2s going.
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Jun 25, 2016 05:45
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SynthOrange posted:The bonus for Darkmoon is that they get proofs for killing Aldritch Faithful. Bit late but I don't think this is correct. Darkmoons and Sentinels only get proofs for killing invaders, but Darkmoons get a well kept one if the invader is in Rosarias Fingers.
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Jun 25, 2016 05:52
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Re: the Invasion talk. I'm not entirely sure that From actually is happy about invasions. They probably feel like they have to keep them in (since you can't really go back on a feature like that), but here's the thing. Invasions as a mechanic are almost entirely fueled by spite. There's the covenant rewards for invasions but beyond that, if you're invading games it is specifically to kill other players for nothing other than your own amusement, and kinda by their own nature, people that are invaded don't necessarily want to actually do PvP. So I think there's a non-insignificant part of the player base that has no interest in PvP, but they want to do co-op stuff or chill with their friends and they just have to put up with invaders that specifically want to murder them. Plus on top of that, since invaders do have an interest in PvP, you end up with a bunch of twinkers that get end-game gear (Hornet Ring in this game, for example) and just git gud at PvP mechanics like parrying in general, and so when Joe Sunbro tries to go fight them they get parried and one-shotted and that's the end of that, and then they go cry on a forum and are told that it's their own fault that they got parried and died and they should learn how to not be predictable, or when Twitch streamers have outright contemptuous attitudes when they go and poo poo on people that obviously have no idea what's happening to them. For people that don't actually want to buy into PvP this is a completely alien concept. You can see why people might not like that so much, and I have the feeling that From listened to that crowd. So now there's all these bones thrown to hosts so that invades are disadvantaged, to the point that casual invaders are completely hosed sideways and it's not even fun with how stacked against you it is, so now you have to really do all this cowardly poo poo to drag invasions out forever and it seems like no one on either side is having any fun with it anymore. I dunno. PvP in this game is very obviously not supposed to be competitive (since only DS2 had anything even remotely structured for PvP), to me it's supposed to be a casual gently caress-around romp due to its uneven nature, but obviously there are a lot of tryhards out there anyway and From apparently feels like that needs to be curtailed to keep everyone else engaged. eta: I think the paradigm that From wanted for invasions was the idea of a lone guy slogging his way through a level, and then an invader coming in and fighting them, and that paradigm only really works if both players are at a similar level of gear and skill. This probably worked back when Demon's Souls was a super niche game, but it sure isn't going to work now that there's such a large audience, so of course this isn't really the case. Invaders are naturally compelled to be as geared/twinked as possible and get plenty of PvP practice, whereas the game host is not compelled to play the same game, so in an even world where every invasion was 1v1 the win/loss ratio would be horribly skewed to invaders. RyokoTK fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Jun 25, 2016 |
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Jun 25, 2016 05:52
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pun pundit posted:Is there a weapon that has a weapon skill that rapidly moves you toward the enemy and then attack? Like the straight sword stance-R2 but without having to go through stance. It could jump or slide or charge, I don't really care but I want a close-distance-and-attack at the push of a button, basically. Several. The Charge line on spears and some halberds (And Astora's Greatsword because why not), Demon Fist's Flame Whirlwind, and Onikiri and Claw's Leaping Slash. And the various Spin Slash variants to a minor extent. That I can think of.
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Jun 25, 2016 05:52
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Thanks! Any (fast) leap attacks in the mix?
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Jun 25, 2016 06:20
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super fart shooter posted:the whole system is badly designed and inspires bad faith, unfun play on both sides. This so much. Bring back ds1 back stab punishing of chuggers. This was actually good and if you disagree you are wrong.
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Jun 25, 2016 07:28
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Or just do the DS2 thing and have it give significant regeneration. Way less odious than DS1 insta-backstab crap.
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Jun 25, 2016 07:43
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 I finally got hatemail and I don't even remember this guy! Hooray! Octo1 fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Jun 25, 2016 |
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Jun 25, 2016 07:53
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RyokoTK posted:PvP in this game is very obviously not supposed to be competitive (since only DS2 had anything even remotely structured for PvP), Don't forget there was the something of stoicism in the dark souls 1 DLC. That everyone ignored to PvP in the area directly after it for some reason.
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Jun 25, 2016 08:28
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the some reason was because stoicism barely worked where as invading took 3 seconds to work.
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Jun 25, 2016 08:40
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I feel like the issues I have with PvP would be solved if you could punish Estus properly, rolls required stamina, and all weapons were somewhat balanced in terms of stamina usage and damage. It would be great if you could punish people for trying to summon, but I guess there's no way that's happening. Gank squads are so potent in this game since you only need a tiny window to heal and if the gankers are somewhat competent they'll just take turns. It would be nice if you could backstab estus users, or maybe even stagger them out of the animation... or at least give us counter hits while they drink. Also, From, make hunter charms faster pls, I know you're listening. Really, gank squads aren't the problem - of course people are going to summon when they're embered, that's the whole point. Fighting gankers is superfun. It just takes forever since Estus flasks essentially become an extension of your HP, and doing 21600 damage (not counting HP) to kill three phantoms and a host takes a lot of time.
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Jun 25, 2016 09:55
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Octo1 posted:
Not healing being some weird unwritten rule never sat quite right with me. I mean, I get it for duels but if you invade me - get hosed, I'm gonna kick you out however I can.
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Jun 25, 2016 09:59
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I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned yet that there is no deep-seated psychological issue with people fearing invaders so much they always summon, it's literally coded that you are more likely to invade people who have already summoned. Your "ugh everyone in this game summons" is heavily skewed because of how the game is programmed. And any conclusion drawn from it must be completely wrong because of that.
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Jun 25, 2016 10:19
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Yeah, that is kinda weird. I've talked about this before; I'd love to be host for 1v1 invasions but it just doesn't happen. Being embered in a PvP hotspot without a summon or dried finger means you'll get invaded by one guy in five hours. As soon as you use the dried finger, you get back-to-back 2v1 invasions where a new invader pops in as soon as you kill the one guy. The same thing is true for summoning people, it's like opening the flood gates. Dried finger + way of blue is a good compromise, and it's really intense since you never know what side of the 2v1 you'll end up on.
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Jun 25, 2016 10:38
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Jordbo posted:Yeah, that is kinda weird. I've talked about this before; I'd love to be host for 1v1 invasions but it just doesn't happen. Being embered in a PvP hotspot without a summon or dried finger means you'll get invaded by one guy in five hours. As soon as you use the dried finger, you get back-to-back 2v1 invasions where a new invader pops in as soon as you kill the one guy. The same thing is true for summoning people, it's like opening the flood gates. I get semi-regular 1v1 invaded when waiting at the Anor Londo bonfire trying to find a summon. I use the Dried Fingers about every 2 minutes or so. I seem to wind up in a fair amount of 1v1 duels this way. Can't really agree with whoever said gank squads are rare. I guess it depends on the area. In Road of Sacrifices, I can count on one hand the number of times I have invaded to NOT a gank squad who either camps the Halfway Fortress bonfire or the area above the swamp where the Exile NPCs usually are. no_funeral posted:also if anybody wants some shackles i still have 30+ sitting in my inventory Sadly - this won't work. You can drop covenant items, but no other player, friendly or otherwise can see them or pick them up.  I tried because I want my cheevos and I never get summoned for Darkmoon and rarely for Aldritch.
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Jun 25, 2016 14:54
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Panty Saluter posted:Not healing being some weird unwritten rule never sat quite right with me. I mean, I get it for duels but if you invade me - get hosed, I'm gonna kick you out however I can. My policy is to hold off from healing until I see the other person do it. It's not about e-bushido, it's just about making the fight not a slog. I'd prefer to die in one minute than win over the course of 20.
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Jun 25, 2016 15:22
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If Estus took just a smidge longer and got staggered by anything, it would be fixed
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Jun 25, 2016 15:42
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Obligatum VII posted:My policy is to hold off from healing until I see the other person do it. It's not about e-bushido, it's just about making the fight not a slog. I'd prefer to die in one minute than win over the course of 20. Well that is true, and about the best I can usually do in PvP is to make them work as hard as possible to win 
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Jun 25, 2016 15:54
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Ganks were frequent in DS1, but only in the PVP hotspots. So the forest and the kiln. It was super rare to invade in the forest and have a 1 on 1. Is DS3 the first of the DS games to prioritize invading worlds with phantoms present, right? So that's why there are never 1 on 1s. I think the matchmaking was totally random outside the level requirements in the previous games. You were just as likely to invade a solo host going through the area as you were a host with two phantoms. The ganking in 3 is probably only a little worse, but not much. And it's usually really prevalent in the hot spots again. Farron and Anor Londo. If anything, ganking is only more frequent because it's so much easier to summon your buddies than in previous games. Even when they're 100 levels above you. Oh and just because a host has two phantoms doesn't mean they're ganking. They're usually just trying to progress. So of course they'll summon all the help they can get to kill you when you intrude on their game. Also, increasing stamina for rolling or nerfing estus will also make it harder for invaders to win 3 vs 1s, which most invasions are. So fixing it that way is not so simple.
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Jun 25, 2016 15:55
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Panty Saluter posted:Not healing being some weird unwritten rule never sat quite right with me. I mean, I get it for duels but if you invade me - get hosed, I'm gonna kick you out however I can. People getting angry about healing is why DS2 is the best game in the series, sorry haters. Going into the red arena and doing the honorable thing of chugging all 12 estus at the start is the best, well, it would be the best if I didn't have a habit of chugging only 11 of them, saving the last one to fuel rage filled hate messages. Say what you will about DS2, it had the best PVP both at launch and over the life of the product of any DS game. (bb included) Nothing in the other series compared to the bell tower / rat bros.
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Jun 25, 2016 16:43
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Every time I invade someone I end up just leaving a few embers on the ground for the other person and then leaving. I feel bad for em, cause I'm terrible and I hate being invaded when I'm just trying to progress through the game. Also I'm a huge loser and I can't PvP with the zweihander to save my life
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Jun 25, 2016 16:58
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Pushing level 200 now, and what do you do to make the Crypt Blacksword even stronger? Powerstance it with the Bell Hammer  SMASH SMASH SMASH, it's so much fun.
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Jun 25, 2016 17:18
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