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Grand Fromage posted:I see I'm not the only one who picked up Origins and Odyssey while they're super cheap. God knows when I'll have time to get into them. They both have a pretty cool tour mode that lets you explore without having to spend 50 hours stabbing people and collecting goat asses and whatnot. I’m a few hours into Odyssey and thinking that maybe I’ll just drop out and enjoy the tours instead.
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May 30, 2020 21:38
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SlothfulCobra posted:Lower class resenting the upper class is easy to understand, what I don't really get is how it's framed as these damned foreigners coming in here with their foreign gods and pushing out Egyptians and their Egyptian gods. I was about to say that this didn't make much sense because people at the time would have thought of the Greek gods and the Egyptian gods as the same beings under different names, but maybe that's just how the Greeks and Romans thought of it and there were some Egyptians who disliked Greek religion? Manetho was on board with interpretation graeca, and he was a native Egyptian priest living under one of the early Ptolemies, but he had some Hellenic education and was writing for a Greek audience...assuming he was even a historical person, which is sometimes doubted.
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May 30, 2020 21:43
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Herodotus definitely thought that Egyptian and Mesopotamian gods were Greek gods with different names.
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May 30, 2020 21:47
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Arglebargle III posted:Herodotus definitely thought that Egyptian and Mesopotamian gods were Greek gods with different names. Yes, but Herodotus was Greek. I'm asking whether Egyptians tended to agree with this view; I'm not sure and would be interested in any relevant sources either way on this question.
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May 30, 2020 21:54
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Sorry I don't know about that.
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May 30, 2020 22:10
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Silver2195 posted:Yes, but Herodotus was Greek. I'm asking whether Egyptians tended to agree with this view; I'm not sure and would be interested in any relevant sources either way on this question. The Egyptians' religion was different in that it had an obsessive focus on the afterlife and the Egyptians as a people were extremely ethnocentric, so I would tend to think that they would consider the Mesopotamian religion as a poor copy of their own, vastly superior one. A Greek might consider them two sides of the same coin, but I doubt an Egyptian would.
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May 30, 2020 22:13
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SlothfulCobra posted:I've been playing Assassin's Creed Origins, and it seems like a lot of its story hinges on the tensions between the ruling class of Greeks and the native Egyptians, which seems weird to me, since by this point the Egyptians have been under Greek rule for over 200 years and under rule of foreign peoples for near 500. Seems like they'd have figured out an equilibrium at that point. This AskHistorians post goes into that question. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7acez8/how_accurate_is_the_representation_of_egypt_in/?st=j9l30obp&sh=abd7132a
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May 31, 2020 16:22
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Do these guys have some sort of tattos? Just realized that i never heard of any kind of body modification or art in the ancient mediterran world. Any examples?
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May 31, 2020 17:13
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The mediterranean (and for that matter the other sphere of the egyptian world in the south) is such a melting pot and basically always had been that even today I think that a huge bit of what ethnicity or race someone counts as comes from factors other than skin tone. Like most people would say an italian is white and an egyptian isn't, but if you took a random sampling of people, put them in the same clothes, gave them the same clean haircuts, and refused to say their names, would anyone actually be able to pick out which is which with accuracy? I imagine the egyptians are going to trend darker but culture is a huge bit of it, especially when it comes to "whiteness." I mainly think about this right now because I've always heard fash come at this from the opposite perspective: they like ancient egyptians so insist the ancient egyptians must have been hella white and only got darker skin at some later date. I guess technically hoteps do this in reverse but the white fash are rather more dangerous so eh. You can't really say ancient Egypt was "mediterranean" or "african" cuz it was indubitably both. You don't get that civilization without it being at that crossroads, in the same way Rome is definitely european but you don't get anything like what Rome ended up being without influences from across the sea.
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May 31, 2020 17:51
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The concept of Whiteness was largely invented to justify colonialism/slavery in the early modern period, which is why a whole lot of pale people weren't considered white if they were colonial subjects, and would be completely alien to ancient peoples.
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May 31, 2020 18:02
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Arglebargle III posted:https://twitter.com/mikeduncan/status/1266682497900908544 Well, during the 1300s, you have the peasant's war in England (crushed violently), the war of the Jacks in France (crushed violently), a Flemish revolt against the French rulers (Also crushed violently) , and then you have the Peasant's war in Germany (crushed violently as well). Sometimes society doesn't collapse and the nobility are able to restore the status quo ante, sort of, except with fewer peasants.
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May 31, 2020 19:04
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I Love Loosies posted:Do these guys have some sort of tattos? Just realized that i never heard of any kind of body modification or art in the ancient mediterran world. Any examples? Roman soldiers were tattooed for a good period of the army's existence. We aren't sure what the tattoos were, but they're referenced as existing as an ID thing. Slaves also frequently had ID tattoos. As far as doing it recreationally, I haven't heard of it in the Roman world but it wouldn't surprise me. I believe there are references to Celts doing it but we're getting out of my wheelhouse here. E: Casual search says that tattoos were used in some religious groups and were looked down upon as decoration, but did exist. The Greek/Latin word for a tattoo was "stigma" which had more or less the same implications it does in English. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 20:00 on May 31, 2020 |
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May 31, 2020 19:58
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Scythians had tattoos, they've even found skin with tattoos on them. Mummies with tattoos have also been found in the Tarim basin. https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2017/may/30/british-museum-skin-scythian-exhibition-tattoo-empire
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May 31, 2020 20:03
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sullat posted:Well, during the 1300s, you have the peasant's war in England (crushed violently), the war of the Jacks in France (crushed violently), a Flemish revolt against the French rulers (Also crushed violently) , and then you have the Peasant's war in Germany (crushed violently as well). Sometimes society doesn't collapse and the nobility are able to restore the status quo ante, sort of, except with fewer peasants. Thanks. You do get a lot of the (crushed violently) category in Chinese classical and early medieval history as well.
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May 31, 2020 20:15
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I’m re-listening to History of Rome and just got done with the Year of the Four Emperors, and I had a question about the Roman mail (he mentioned Vespasian sending a letter to Galba or something). Was there a “postal service” of any kind in the Roman Empire, or did you have to hire someone personally if you wanted to send a message to someone far away?
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May 31, 2020 20:57
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Badger of Basra posted:I’m re-listening to History of Rome and just got done with the Year of the Four Emperors, and I had a question about the Roman mail (he mentioned Vespasian sending a letter to Galba or something). There were two ways the mail got around. If you were in the government, mail was carried by couriers on the cursus publicus. This was a system of waystations placed every 23 miles or so. A courier would ride to one, switch horses, ride to the next, etc. Think pony express or the Mongolian dispatch system, same idea. A letter could be transported quite rapidly if it needed to be. If you were just a civilian, mail was carried by merchants on ships or in caravans. It seems like this was accessible to a lot of people, we have letters going back and forth from Hadrian's Wall written by soldiers and their families, and while soldiers were reasonably well paid they weren't rich or anything. If you were wealthy, you hired a private courier to carry the mail.
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May 31, 2020 21:02
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I do sort of wonder about how the final leg of the journey worked. Like, when Cicero was sending a letter to Atticus, the beginning is fairly obvious--send a servant or slave with the letter to Brundisium, look for a ship heading to Athens, and pay the captain to carry your letter. Once the ship arrives though, what happened to it? Was there a post office in Athens that all the ships took their letters to, and then people could check all at once? Would a wealthy person just habitually send a slave to check for letters on the newly arrived ships? Would a courier pick all the mail up and start delivering? What if the letter's final destination was Syria and it needed to get onto another ship?
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May 31, 2020 21:20
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cheetah7071 posted:I do sort of wonder about how the final leg of the journey worked. Like, when Cicero was sending a letter to Atticus, the beginning is fairly obvious--send a servant or slave with the letter to Brundisium, look for a ship heading to Athens, and pay the captain to carry your letter. Once the ship arrives though, what happened to it? Was there a post office in Athens that all the ships took their letters to, and then people could check all at once? Would a wealthy person just habitually send a slave to check for letters on the newly arrived ships? Would a courier pick all the mail up and start delivering? What if the letter's final destination was Syria and it needed to get onto another ship? You give it to a trusty innkeeper who promises that he will find someone to pass it on tomorrow.
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May 31, 2020 21:23
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There were no public post offices. I'm guessing mail was handled like any other merchandise and transshipment was part of the deal. You paid for the letter to go somewhere, and that fee included things like switching ships or putting it on a cart out to the place or whatever. My further suspicion is that mail was not delivered directly to a recipient unless you had a private courier, instead it would end up in the warehouses where all other goods were shipped and you had to go check now and then to see if you had any mail. I know of no textual evidence for any of this but I'm extrapolating from how goods were moved.
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May 31, 2020 21:24
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Zopotantor posted:You give it to a trusty innkeeper who promises that he will find someone to pass it on tomorrow. What if he has a memory like a lumber room
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May 31, 2020 21:42
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Let me know if this is out of line but how would you material culture fans categorize this 21st century thing: 
Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 23:00 on May 31, 2020 |
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May 31, 2020 22:55
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMgQb6Epmrg
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May 31, 2020 23:07
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Is the idea of people using fancy letter folding (and seals obvs) to try and demonstrate that the letter was reaching the recipient unread a real thing or just a movie invention?
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May 31, 2020 23:22
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Dunno about fancy folding, but pressed wax seals were definitely a real thing. We have lots and lots and lots of surviving rings and seal presses for making those.
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May 31, 2020 23:25
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Arglebargle III posted:Let me know if this is out of line but how would you material culture fans categorize this 21st century thing: Gladius.
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May 31, 2020 23:26
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Is the idea of people using fancy letter folding (and seals obvs) to try and demonstrate that the letter was reaching the recipient unread a real thing or just a movie invention? that's real. you can also cut a tag of paper and insert it into slots in an elaborate pattern.
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May 31, 2020 23:26
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Grand Fromage posted:Dunno about fancy folding, but pressed wax seals were definitely a real thing. We have lots and lots and lots of surviving rings and seal presses for making those. well yeah that's why the seals are obvs, but I've seen some pretty HEY GUNS posted:that's real. you can also cut a tag of paper and insert it into slots in an elaborate pattern. and sniped! Although that raises the further question of was that doable in Rome or did you need proper paper?
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May 31, 2020 23:30
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Grand Fromage posted:My further suspicion is that mail was not delivered directly to a recipient unless you had a private courier, instead it would end up in the warehouses where all other goods were shipped and you had to go check now and then to see if you had any mail. It also tracks with the still existing "General Delivery" you can get at the US post office.
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May 31, 2020 23:35
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Arglebargle III posted:Let me know if this is out of line but how would you material culture fans categorize this 21st century thing: Used to be it was illegal to carry one of these in the middle of the city, but then soldiers kept crossing the river and all of a sudden the republic's fallen.
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May 31, 2020 23:37
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Arglebargle III posted:Let me know if this is out of line but how would you material culture fans categorize this 21st century thing: cosplay
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May 31, 2020 23:42
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SlothfulCobra posted:Used to be it was illegal to carry one of these in the middle of the city, but then soldiers kept crossing the river and all of a sudden the republic's fallen. 
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Jun 1, 2020 00:02
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Here's an old-school Roman question: what was so attractive about membership in the Senate in the 1st century AD that it could be used to buy off local elites in the provinces?
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Jun 1, 2020 00:28
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Arglebargle III posted:Here's an old-school Roman question: what was so attractive about membership in the Senate in the 1st century AD that it could be used to buy off local elites in the provinces? Would you be more influential as Arglebargle III or as Arglebargle III with an honourary PhD from Columbia, two masters from Oxford, several knighthoods, a few executive producer credits, etc etc Your wealth is exactly the same but you legally have all that poo poo and documents to prove it.
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Jun 1, 2020 01:25
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And now you're the guy all the local elites should come talk to if you need anything to do with Romans. Arglebargle III posted:Let me know if this is out of line but how would you material culture fans categorize this 21st century thing: Macuahuitl what even is that thing?
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Jun 1, 2020 01:40
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Arglebargle III posted:Here's an old-school Roman question: what was so attractive about membership in the Senate in the 1st century AD that it could be used to buy off local elites in the provinces? it solidifies your status as, well, an elite. the senate is also not powerless before the crisis - the relationship between the emperor and the senate is often portrayed as though the senate immediately withered away to a social club when augustus took over. this is absolutely not true - emperors in some sense served at the pleasure of the senate, though this was only really tested once, in the year of six emperors (the whole maximinus thrax thing), and emperors afterward absolutely curtailed the senate in response to the very real (if, in normal times, absurdly unlikely) danger of every elite in rome joining together to do a coup when the emperor is out of town. being a senator gets you face-to-face contact with the emperor whenever he's in the area, a good old boys network of other elites, and immense influence over details of local governance that are generally beneath direct imperial notice
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Jun 1, 2020 01:40
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The prestige was also hereditary, so you are setting your family up for success for generations to come. It also had some religious importance, if you cared.
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Jun 1, 2020 01:54
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PittTheElder posted:And now you're the guy all the local elites should come talk to if you need anything to do with Romans. Cold Steel Machete Gladius. Famously used by the Dallas courthouse shooter (who failed to even get inside the building and got killed in the parking lot without hitting a single person) and now used by the Dallas swordsman, who charged a group of protesters to defend a bar and got his head bashed in with a skateboard. He is also the most pathetic man in the world.  https://twitter.com/woot_master/status/1267236074155204610 https://twitter.com/SAMOYEDCORE/status/1267155343173287936
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Jun 1, 2020 02:54
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Ambitious provincial senators also got the chance to schmooze with the emperor and hopefully get rewarded with high office and provincial army commands. It’s not until the second century that you see more of these guys becoming emperors, but they already existed in the first century. Tacitus’s father-in-law Agricola was one: of Italian extraction, but born in a colonia in Narbonensis and went back there again when he was pushed to retire.
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Jun 1, 2020 02:59
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The reason Augustus kept the senate around after forming the empire and shrugging off so much of the remains of the Republic was because they were useful for helping him rule the empire, and there's real power associated with that kind of administrative work even if the Emperor reserves the right to to have the final word on all matters and even if you're not allowed to step foot in Egypt. I don't really know what all they did, but the way that so many narratives of history just zoom out from the hustle and bustle of Roman politics to just the Emperor's whims tends to really downplay their role even harder. They did declare Nero an enemy of the people though.
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Jun 1, 2020 03:12
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chitoryu12 posted:Cold Steel Machete Gladius Lol god drat. Is the majority of the blade black just to be tacticool?
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Jun 1, 2020 03:20
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