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Electoralism worked in LA, we got someone on LA and Burbank city Council. since LA city Council is known as the “15 little mayors“, huge change can happen because of these two victories. (Burbank is a city of 100,000 people and has three spots on council if you’re not mayor or vice mayor.)
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Nov 25, 2020 06:58
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Atrocious Joe posted:So a politician can join DSA without being endorsed by DSA? there's a congressman, danny davis, that is a member of DSA and has been for who knows how long but isn't considered to be part of DSA by national even. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_K._Davis DSA national only ever acknowledges AOC, Rashida Tlaib, Cori Bush, and Jamaal Bowman as DSA members that have won congressional seats despite Danny Davis being a paper member of DSA.
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Nov 25, 2020 10:11
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Golden Bee posted:Electoralism worked in LA, we got someone on LA and Burbank city Council. since LA city Council is known as the “15 little mayors“, huge change can happen because of these two victories. (Burbank is a city of 100,000 people and has three spots on council if you’re not mayor or vice mayor.)
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Nov 25, 2020 14:03
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:I mean I'm not going to argue in favor of democratic centralism as practiced by the Bolsheviks, but some form of accountability over and above "we will send you a mean letter" is probably a good idea? Without some kind of internal discipline, you're not an organization, not even a "big tent" one - you're a mailing list. the Bolsheviks were actually very good and imitating them is good but even the social democratic parties of the second international used democratic centralism like the German SPD in fact Karl leibnecht broke it when he voted against the party on the issue of war credits during ww1. Democratic centralism helped make them an effective and powerful political force until their politics degenerated
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Nov 25, 2020 15:14
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apropos kind of beat me to it but my point isnt that centralism is bad but that it doesnt work unless everyone agrees completely on the broad strokes. in my experience it's not always possible to get a room full of DSA people to agree completely with statements like 'private property should be abolished'. although that's probably more to do with your average American not even knowing what private property is.
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Nov 25, 2020 15:27
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As long as "joining the DSA" consists of sending some cash to national there's literally no way it can be anything approaching a demcent organization
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Nov 25, 2020 17:23
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long-rear end nips Diane posted:As long as "joining the DSA" consists of sending some cash to national there's literally no way it can be anything approaching a demcent organization What sort of thing do you think would be an effective requirement for entry for a demcent DSA?
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Nov 25, 2020 19:13
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croup coughfield posted:What sort of thing do you think would be an effective requirement for entry for a demcent DSA? No clue, IDK if it's even possible
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Nov 25, 2020 19:21
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for us in socialist alternative, being a member means you pay dues, are active in the org in some capacity (so you don’t have paper members who only show up to vote for some critical vote or do something at one time and then peace out for years) and have basic political agreement which means someone has spoken to them about politics once or twice and what we’re about. doesn’t mean that’s what I think dsa should have but yes to dues yes to like attending at least a meeting in the last year or something at least, and prolly they should have a member talk to them first too. that last part I think is really key, it’s called a contact discussion or contact meeting generally and it’s the foundation of nearly every single form of labor or community organizing I’ve ever done seen or read about.
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Nov 25, 2020 19:28
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Labor dues has come up a few times as a discussion but apparently it's really loving unpopular and I don't really get it. It's not exactly like, making people do things at gunpoint to say that they only get their membership card in a voluntary organization if they're active in it.
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Nov 25, 2020 19:33
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dues are huge how else can you have political independence if you’re not financially independent. doesn’t mean everyone has to pay the same amount and some people have less money so should obviously pay less but there should also be a conscious effort to get those who can pay more to do so. asking for money is unfortunately a large part of politics and arguably the most important part
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Nov 25, 2020 19:39
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To clarify since I think I might have miscommunicated - DSA does have cash dues, and these are generally considered noncontroversial though a few people bristle about it from time to time. It does not have labor dues, which is part of why despite DSA having like 5000 members in NYC, you end up seeing about the same 100 or so people pretty frequently.
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Nov 25, 2020 20:23
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Speaking as someone who is closer to an authoritarian communist who is also an active DSA member, I really do not see any way the org becomes centralist of forms any sort of vanguard without exploding Like even at the best of times half the caucuses are dedicated full time to destroying national The explicit ban on centralists and almost nobody else is pretty funny tho
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Nov 26, 2020 01:45
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Epic High Five posted:Speaking as someone who is closer to an authoritarian communist who is also an active DSA member, I really do not see any way the org becomes centralist of forms any sort of vanguard without exploding Well DSA is gonna explode within ~2 years anyway
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Nov 26, 2020 03:11
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Epic High Five posted:Speaking as someone who is closer to an authoritarian communist who is also an active DSA member, I really do not see any way the org becomes centralist of forms any sort of vanguard without exploding I'm at that weird middle section of too anarchist to be communists too communist to be anarchist and the thing I see is that it would be really hard to go centralist since like what is National going to do if for instance they expel a bunch of people in my chapter for not following their lovely orders? How many legions does Maria Svart command when I will probably just keep doing what I'm doing and our chapter keeps running smoothly. It's going to be a bummer when BR & SMC renew Paula's contract and she makes 100 k spending most of it on vacation and coming up with stuff pretending it's part of some "Process"
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Nov 26, 2020 03:25
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One of the thing that completely baffles me about the DSA is how little faith it has in its leadership, from what I have seen of people posting in this thread anyway. That may well be warranted, I don't follow the ins and outs of the organization too closely, bit it's hard for me to imagine being a member of an org like that. Like, the thing the DSA has going for it compared to everyone else on the miniscule left in the US is its size. But what does size matter if there isn't unity of purpose, let alone any faith in leadership? It's like being a paralyzed elephant.
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Nov 27, 2020 00:09
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Are you in DSA? If so, what type of organizing do you do? If not, what org are you in and what type of organizing do you do? Internet Explorer has issued a correction as of 01:10 on Nov 27, 2020 |
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Nov 27, 2020 00:59
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Internet Explorer posted:Are you in DSA? If so, what type of organizing do you do? Please explain your activities clearly and if you could speak into my collar that would be great
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Nov 27, 2020 01:17
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Internet Explorer posted:Are you in DSA? If so, what type of organizing do you do? I am not currently in any organization as I no longer live in the US, but I was highly active in the ISO before leaving the country, which was not long before it collapsed from its own internal mismanagement of a rape allegation. The academic research I've been involved with will probably conclude in June. I have been trying to figure out what I will do when I return to the US. Of course I'm guessing these questions are veiled accusations of either my own inaction, or the comparative ineffectiveness of whatever I've been up to. To the latter possibility, I'll grant you it's not like there's any clear and winning alternatives among the left. But my expression of confusion is sincere, I sincerely don't understand what can be expected in that kind of organizational setup.
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Nov 27, 2020 01:22
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DSA is effectively an activist org, with everything that implies.
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Nov 27, 2020 01:50
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Mr. Lobe posted:I am not currently in any organization as I no longer live in the US, but I was highly active in the ISO before leaving the country, which was not long before it collapsed from its own internal mismanagement of a rape allegation. The academic research I've been involved with will probably conclude in June. I have been trying to figure out what I will do when I return to the US. Definitely not a veiled accusation. I see this conversation a lot in DSA. It seems to permeate everything we do. Any sort of disagreement in our chapter is usually along these lines. I personally don't understand how you can force people to organize around something they don't want to organize around. DSA is not ISO, DSA is not a vanguard party. We are big tent and we have as many members as we do because we are big tent. If we were like ISO, we would be like ISO. I know ISO mostly split, seems like our local ISO chapter just calls themselves "Denver Communists." There's no mechanism in place to turn DSA into what you're talking about. It is specifically not an org that gives a gently caress about our leadership. You come, you get to meet like-minded folks, and you work on things you find interesting. The idea is not to have 2-3 initiatives that DSA members are only allowed to work on. If you try to do that, people will just not show up unless it interests them. Who gets to decide what those 2-3 initiatives are? Who gets to decide if activities are within those 2-3 initiatives? What if our previous initiatives didn't involve something like BLM or COVID-19 support? Do we just not do BLM or COVID-19 activities? I have this argument constantly. Just loving constantly. And I find it exhausting. No fault of yours, you're not in the org and you're coming from a different perspective. I just get tired of hearing about it from people who have been in DSA long enough to know better.
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Nov 27, 2020 01:56
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I mean, I like my local, and as far as I know my local is the only meaningful organization for socialism that is geographically close enough to me for me to get anything done. I can name people in my local that get great things done, I can point to actions my local has taken that have lead to legitimate long-term gains for the working class of my city, I can say with some confidence that DSA, at least locally, is a force for both increasing class consciousness and building working class power. There are other orgs that get good stuff done but it's usually not with an explicitly socialist angle, so DSA it is. In other places the situations might be different.
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Nov 27, 2020 02:38
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Yeah I was writing about things recently with my chapter since I had nothing to do; mainly this https://pghdsa.org/rust-belt-convention-2018/ (the first thing that I got really active organizing on  ) I love the work my chapter does, it helps that the identity of my chapter is a good mix of mutual aid anarchists, theory driven communists, and socialist activists. I believe there should be a Socialist workers party, but I don't think it will be DSA itself that becomes that party. I also should stress that said worker's party shouldn't just be an electoral one, but something more. I don't how the org is going to react in the 2021 Convention because the big issue is going to be the Party Question. B&R have their dumb as rocks Dirty Break dreams of if we elect just enough Democrats they will all break off to form a new party. SMC is focused on turning the org into more like an Non-profit. And CPN is focused on creating something like the CPUSA in the 1930s. Frankly the left in the Org (CPN, LSC, the various Marxist Caucuses) will and should probably work together to come up with something viable for this org to run on. Either way I'm going to stay organizing in Pittsburgh DSA because I like my comrades and they like me so why stop now!
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Nov 27, 2020 04:32
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Its always interesting hearing from non dysfunctional chapters
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Nov 27, 2020 04:45
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Joined the Tacoma-Pierce County DSA this month, anyone got word about them? Extreme apologies if something has been posted about them recently, I've been up to my knees in working with food distribution and family stuff this month.
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Nov 27, 2020 05:19
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Socialism exists between you, the organizations you work with, and people you can guilt into showing up to actions. National leadership is really not a factor.
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Nov 27, 2020 08:39
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croup coughfield posted:What sort of thing do you think would be an effective requirement for entry for a demcent DSA? You take the DSA pledges out to an abandoned quarry and make them execute a robber baron. The catch is that only gun is loaded with live ammunition so nobody knows who actually dealt the killing blow. I think I saw it in a movie once so it's probably a good idea.
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Nov 27, 2020 10:26
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apropos to nothing posted:the Bolsheviks were actually very good and imitating them is good but even the social democratic parties of the second international used democratic centralism like the German SPD in fact Karl leibnecht broke it when he voted against the party on the issue of war credits during ww1. Democratic centralism helped make them an effective and powerful political force until their politics degenerated That said, there is probably space for both, and I don't find it contradictory to belong to a centralist org and DSA. So it's not so much that I think DSA should become a centralist org (and it's never going to happen anyway - and as others have pointed out it would crater the membership), but rather that I think it's pretty dumb that one of the few things that can get you in trouble with DSA is belonging to some other centralist org. I assume enforcement of this is pretty lax and I wouldn't be surprised if the number of people kicked out for this reason is in the single digits (or zero). Even so, the rule just shouldn't exist.
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Nov 27, 2020 10:53
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i can only assume its the only defense we have against the perifidous ex-ISO members
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Nov 27, 2020 11:05
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Larry Parrish posted:i can only assume its the only defense we have against the perifidous ex-ISO members the demcent ban was something i was really against when i first joined (because i had no experience organizing with other left groups at that point) but there really is nothing more annoying than a group of members from some other org trying to form a faction and either constantly attempt to peel off members or effectively take control of the local chapter. we didn't have a lot of issues with the latter but definitely had problems with the former. i know the general nature of the left is two dozen activists that all share membership in the same 10 local groups but it's exhausting.
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Nov 27, 2020 14:01
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Larry Parrish posted:i can only assume its the only defense we have against the perifidous ex-ISO members Hard to have double membership with an organization that does not exist However, I believe in Seattle that restriction was used to oust Socialist Alternative double members
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Nov 27, 2020 14:06
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A group in the UK had a similar restriction and when it was discussed at the organising meetings it basically was admitted as having no strong theoretical justification but just being a way to fend off particular sects who do nothing but enter other orgs/movements and strangle them The argument with the counterpoint 'why not just ban those organisations specifically' was never resolved
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Nov 27, 2020 15:08
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somewhat awkwardly the counterpoint was being advanced by a member of a demcent organisation who was just attending the meeting in tacit and then blatant defiance of the rule because everyone organising it granted that their group was cool rather than exhausting wreckers
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Nov 27, 2020 15:14
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Peel posted:A group in the UK had a similar restriction and when it was discussed at the organising meetings it basically was admitted as having no strong theoretical justification but just being a way to fend off particular sects who do nothing but enter other orgs/movements and strangle them When I was still with my local, I suggested removing our copied-from-national bylaw prohibiting membership in demcent orgs in spite of national's ban, mostly because it struck me as needlessly sectarian and I wanted to attract more actual socialist organizers. I don't think it ever went anywhere and I was on my way out at the time anyway. A year or two later the chapter's leadership was mostly replaced by IMT entryists who hollowed out the org and turned it into a reading group lmao
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Nov 27, 2020 17:21
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lmfao. yeah the demcent ban is funny and makes no sense in isolation but weird entryist wrecker guy is definetly a type of demcent. i dont really know how you solve that problem either.
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Nov 27, 2020 18:38
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Larry Parrish posted:lmfao. yeah the demcent ban is funny and makes no sense in isolation but weird entryist wrecker guy is definetly a type of demcent. i dont really know how you solve that problem either. I think our chapter changed the ban in that you can dual card, but if you start doing entryist poo poo then it is grounds for expulsion
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Nov 27, 2020 21:37
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My chapter essentially got taken over by the local YDSA chapter who have managed to transform everything into an endless roberts rules of order procedural discussion and who have drive away pretty much every connection we might have had to unions, immigrants rights movement, etc.
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Nov 28, 2020 01:35
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Mr. Lobe posted:Hard to have double membership with an organization that does not exist Seattle didn't oust anyone for it that I know of but the leaders at the time told the SA people to knock it off with the obvious and really stupid entryism. Then all of the good old leaders quit, SA had a split and now Seattle DSA is just SA2 with less requirements to get in.
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Nov 28, 2020 03:46
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Robert's Rules are dumb
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Nov 28, 2020 05:12
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PostNouveau posted:Robert's Rules are dumb
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Nov 28, 2020 07:00
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