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Helsing posted:Trump's proposed fiscal policies are goosing up the stock market right now but that doesn't mean people aren't extremely worried about how his policies toward China, Mexico, NATO, Europe, etc. are going to play out. I don't want to start a big argument or anything but your exact words were "global investor class", not "people". I totally agree "people" are extremely worried, my own mom won't unglue herself from CNN, it's embarrassing. Investors however don't seem to be all that spooked looking at the quantitative data that's available.
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Jan 28, 2017 21:24
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The capitalist class is generally not particularly afraid of fascism, it's the plan B if there's even the slightest risk of mass resistance in crisis.
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Jan 28, 2017 21:26
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Wistful of Dollars posted:O'Leary was on The House today; he sounds as ridiculous, egotistical and petty as you can imagine. I enjoyed when he laid out his strategy for dealing with NAFTA and trade: Hide under a rock so Trump doesn't notice us.
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Jan 28, 2017 21:30
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Ego-bot posted:I enjoyed when he laid out his strategy for dealing with NAFTA and trade: Hide under a rock so Trump doesn't notice us. tbf this is also Trudeau's plan.
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Jan 28, 2017 21:31
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By people I meant those investors. I don't think the short term movements of the stock market are particularly reflective of anything except the short term movements of the stock market. I believe the calculation people are making right now is that the Republicans in Congress will restrain Trump, and that hopefully he wasn't being too serious about his wilder promises. But there's also a lot of underlying anxiety that this guy is a loose cannon who might actually start a trade war or gently caress up some longstanding alliances. I admit it was lazy and glib to refer to the "global investor class" as though it's a monolithic hivemind but any journalistic sketch you read these days of the folks gathering at Davos or the private lives of the ultra-rich reveals a deep level of anxiety that just didn't seem to exist ten or even five years ago. Agnosticnixie posted:The capitalist class is generally not particularly afraid of fascism, it's the plan B if there's even the slightest risk of mass resistance in crisis. Trump's not a fascist.
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Jan 28, 2017 21:32
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Helsing posted:I believe the calculation people are making right now is that the Republicans in Congress will restrain Trump, and that hopefully he wasn't being too serious about his wilder promises. That is naive and frankly stupid. For example, The Speaker for the House endorsing the EO that blocks permanent residents from returning to their homes from abroad based on their nation of birth. Helsing posted:Trump's not a fascist. He may not be but his rhetoric and the language and direction of the executive orders he's been firing out for the last week plainly is. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Jan 28, 2017 |
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Jan 28, 2017 21:35
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infernal machines posted:That is naive and frankly stupid. Not all racist, nationalist blowhards with an anti-liberal authoritarian streak are fascists. You're just using that word as a way to indicate you really really don't like Trump, which is fair enough, but I'm getting the impression a lot of people don't quite understand how illiberal, militaristic and racist (and/or sectarian) most governments throughout most of history have actually been. That nice post-war period of cultural pluralism and liberal values that all were all born into was the exception, not the rule.
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Jan 28, 2017 21:45
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Ego-bot posted:I enjoyed when he laid out his strategy for dealing with NAFTA and trade: Hide under a rock so Trump doesn't notice us. Ahem. As I was saying: https://youtu.be/eyKOfmyc23w?t=20s
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Jan 28, 2017 21:46
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infernal machines posted:He may not be but his rhetoric and the language and direction of the executive orders he's been firing out for the last week plainly is. The term is crypto-fascist.
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Jan 28, 2017 21:46
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Also if someone had told me 10 years ago that this was a thing we were seriously going to be doing in the year 2017, I would have called them a big ol' silly.
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Jan 28, 2017 21:53
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Helsing posted:Trump's not a fascist. What had Hitler done in his first 18 days in office (before Feb 17th 1933) that was worse than what Trump has done? If we're following the Nazi timeline, the Capitol fire is still another 9 days away (blamed on a BLM protestor), and then it's not until March that Trump gets congress to sign off on his enabling act. The Democratic party won't be banned until the summer, and it'll be a year after that before Mitch McConnel and Paul Ryan meet the sharp end of a long knife. Trump has already started discriminating against muslims. Hitler didn't start passing laws regarding the status of Jews until April 1933, so Trump is well ahead of schedule there. He has issued executive orders that are clearly illegal, and it is yet to be seen whether those orders will be allowed to stand by the courts and by congress. I guess what I'm saying to give Trump a chance to really get going on Making America Great Again before you call him "not a fascist." Jimbozig fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Jan 28, 2017 |
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Jan 28, 2017 21:56
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You mean other than Hitler having huge uniformed marches and paramilitary goonsquads murdering people in the streets and having already attempted to violently overthrow the government in a putsch years previously? Or the fact his entire ideology was based on a reaction to a communist ideology and militant labour movement that for all intents and purposes does not exist anymore?
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Jan 28, 2017 22:00
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Notice how that guy who punched Richard Spencer wasn't beaten to death with tire irons?
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Jan 28, 2017 22:02
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How long do you want to wait?
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Jan 28, 2017 22:06
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I guess what I'm trying to convey here is that calling Trump a fascist just seems to reveal how barren our historical vocabulary is. Part of the Cold War was this massive collective forgetting of almost everything that happened before 1945, especially here in North America. We've just completely suppressed any real memory of how openly and proudly racist, militarist and dictatorial things were, even in the most progressive or economically developed countries of the era. So now when we search about for some precedent for Trump we end up settling on the big scary boogyman of history, Adolf Hitler. I don't really want to waste the rest of my saturday afternoon splitting hairs over this. If you wanna call Trump a fascist go ahead, I guess it's pointless to quibble. And I'd definitely say that the way doxxing has gone mainstream on both the left and the right is basically a dress rehearsal for people gearing up to start murdering their political opponents a few years from now. So I don't mean to come off as saying there's no cause for alarm. But he aint a fascist in any meaningful historical sense of the term.
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Jan 28, 2017 22:10
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I mean I should be happy that there aren't any Brownshirts running amok but I don't think it's unfair to at least say that Trump is wearing some of the trappings of fascism.
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Jan 28, 2017 22:14
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He's not a Hitler, but I wouldn't put it past him to be a Franco-type character. Not all fascism has to be literally the worst fascism ever. Also, if you want to make the argument that the world in general has become more liberal and less dictatorial and militaristic in the past decades, surely you'd concede that anyone even approaching fascism as we knew it at the time of WW2 is further from our current status quo than indeed Hitler was from the society that preceded him, which I think is reason to worry, even if Trump is not yet as bad in absolute terms.
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Jan 28, 2017 22:14
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So far Trump is more of an authoritarian strongman in the mould of Erdogan or Putin than he is a Hitler. He can be an authoritarian backed by the support of a social base of authoritarians without necessarily turning into Hitler. Scapegoating ethnic and religious minorities, like for example the way Erdogan does with the Kurds, doesn't necessarily have to lead to a new Holocaust. Cowing dissenting politicians of your own or the other party using the bully pulpit of the presidency and the rabid nature of your popular support doesn't have to involve brownshirts beating your opponents to death. Staying in power can be done through voter suppression rather than through getting rid of elections altogether. Trump doesn't have to be Literally Hitler to be a Very Bad Dude, we have plenty of examples of the kind of authoritarianism he's displaying so far in our current world without having to go back to 1933. So far Trump has displayed two things in his appointments, policies, and policy statements: an unvarnished appeal to the ultraconservative xenophobic Christian nationalist social base of the Republican Party, and a drive to oligarchic rule in the form of the billionaire cabinet and his statements on how tax reform and the budget will look. Both of those things are found in, for example, the oligarchic nature and ultraconservative Orthodox family values of the Putin regime. But, more importantly, both of them are also longstanding parts of Republican Party dogma. Appease the base with social conservative gibberish while robbing the country blind to enrich the 0.1% is the classic Republican playbook and, while Trump is enacting it in a more authoritarian way than past Republicans have, there's not yet any actual sign of him turning into Literally Hitler.
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Jan 28, 2017 22:16
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I appreciate the need for caution and care when using strong language like that, so as to avoid devaluing it. But I do think it's a bit silly to insist that it not be used until your personal threshold for where it would be appropriate is breached as opposed to when the government is running full speed towards that line, with no one attempting to stop them. I have not called Trump a fascist and I have not called him a Nazi, I am saying his administration is very quickly making bold strides towards what definitely would appear to be fascism. I guess we can just wait and see if they stop at banning Muslim permanent residents from returning to the country, or if they decide to take it a little further.
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Jan 28, 2017 22:36
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I called him a fascist because I understand that there's a matter of degrees between the Estado Novo and the third reich.
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Jan 28, 2017 22:37
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Trump seems more like a Mussolini
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Jan 28, 2017 22:40
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Oh good I'm glad you guys cleared that up
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Jan 28, 2017 22:44
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infernal machines posted:I appreciate the need for caution and care when using strong language like that, so as to avoid devaluing it. But I do think it's a bit silly to insist that it not be used until your personal threshold for where it would be appropriate is breached as opposed to when the government is running full speed towards that line, with no one attempting to stop them. Still hosed up that Iraqi interpreters working for special forces have had their SIVs suspended.
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Jan 28, 2017 22:46
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Eej posted:Still hosed up that Iraqi interpreters working for special forces have had their SIVs suspended. It's hosed up period, but yeah, that's a great way to get the people willing to help you killed. But hey, sounds like Canada is everyone's second choice!
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Jan 28, 2017 23:14
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https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/825418237005406210
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Jan 28, 2017 23:17
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A bunch of CEOs and investors in the tech scene are trying to make hay with press releases telling people to come to Canada. My messenger is blowing up with #WelcomeToCanada and #DiversityIsOurStrength and suchlike. Monday is going to be positively fluffy. (I'm assuming they're smart enough to not publish anything at 6pm on a Saturday.)
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Jan 28, 2017 23:20
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Helsing posted:By people I meant those investors. I don't think the short term movements of the stock market are particularly reflective of anything except the short term movements of the stock market. "Journalistic sketch" is where our paths diverge I guess. If that sketch was worth the paper it's drawn on, Trump wouldn't have won in a landslide. The US stock market jumped 5% from Nov 7th to Nov 10th, that's short term but it's not random or priced in, Trump winning was a surprise. It climbed another 6% since then including 2% since the 20th when it became pretty clear Trump was going to keep his promises. I don't have time to read that article but spez is a moron and directly contributed a non-trivial amount towards getting Trump elected starting with how they handled the Orlando shooting. I'm with you on Trump not being a fascist but I don't want them to stop, it cracks me up after the DNC primary sham. To tie those two things together, appreciate the irony of all the soft hearted teachers and public servants marching against fascism last weekend while their pension plans are dumping their retirement money into Trumpland, http://www.datacenterdynamics.com/c...596.fullarticle
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Jan 28, 2017 23:25
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An unintended consequence of Making America Great Again: All the highly skilled immigrants choosing their safety school instead.Postess with the Mostest posted:I'm with you on Trump not being a fascist but I don't want them to stop, it cracks me up after the DNC primary sham. "This guy causing measurable harm and suffering to thousands on a daily basis? Really cracks me up!" - A person lacking basic human empathy infernal machines fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Jan 28, 2017 |
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Jan 28, 2017 23:26
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infernal machines posted:"This guy causing measurable harm and suffering to thousands on a daily basis? Really cracks me up!" - A person lacking basic human empathy What no you calling the only major party candidate who went through a fair primary a fascist cracks me up. At the risk of sounding not empathetic, thousands isn't really that bad as far as American presidents go, Obama dropped a bomb every 20 minutes in 2016.
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Jan 28, 2017 23:36
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I didn't call him a fascist, remember? Fake News! Good point re: Obama though, maybe Trump is just ramping up slowly, you know easing into the position.
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Jan 28, 2017 23:40
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infernal machines posted:I didn't call him a fascist, remember? Fake News! Yeah I shouldn't have said you. The royal you. Your ilk. Y'all.
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Jan 28, 2017 23:44
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Helsing posted:I guess what I'm trying to convey here is that calling Trump a fascist just seems to reveal how barren our historical vocabulary is. Part of the Cold War was this massive collective forgetting of almost everything that happened before 1945, especially here in North America. We've just completely suppressed any real memory of how openly and proudly racist, militarist and dictatorial things were, even in the most progressive or economically developed countries of the era. So now when we search about for some precedent for Trump we end up settling on the big scary boogyman of history, Adolf Hitler. What qualifies someone to be a fascist? Like definitively. Because just going "Nope not a fascist." doesn't suddenly make him not a fascist. You have to define the word so we know where you're coming from.
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Jan 29, 2017 00:27
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Stretch Marx posted:What qualifies someone to be a fascist? Like definitively. Because just going "Nope not a fascist." doesn't suddenly make him not a fascist. You have to define the word so we know where you're coming from. I would say for simplicity's sake we just keep using the literal definition. So currently, no, not a fascist. Crypto-fascist, proto-fascist, fascist leaning, whatever, argue away on those.
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Jan 29, 2017 00:31
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Guys calm down he's not a fascist he's just a racist authoritarian.
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Jan 29, 2017 00:34
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Stretch Marx posted:What qualifies someone to be a fascist? Like definitively. Because just going "Nope not a fascist." doesn't suddenly make him not a fascist. You have to define the word so we know where you're coming from. The core ideological elements tend to be related to the kind of nationalism that Trump appealed to (Griffin calls it palingenetic ultranationalism, basically the idea of regenerating the nation by focusing on foreign orideological enemies).
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Jan 29, 2017 00:40
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Trump isn't a fascist the same way Homo erectus isn't a human being. As infernal machines said, devaluation is a real issue, but Trump deserves some pretty tough language.
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Jan 29, 2017 00:44
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Agnosticnixie posted:palingenetic ultranationalism just rolls right off the tongue
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Jan 29, 2017 00:48
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Greatest thing to come out of this weekend: Maryam Monsef banned from entering the US lmao
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Jan 29, 2017 00:52
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On the one hand: Trudeau's tweet: https://twitter.com/JustinTrudeau/status/825438460265762816 Look at all those retweets! On the other hand, actual Canadian government policy: quote:Canada limits the number of privately sponsored Syrian refugee applicants in 2017 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/canada-limits-the-number-of-privately-sponsored-syrian-refugee-applicants-in-2017-1.3911172
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Jan 29, 2017 02:40
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Plus our billions in arms sales to Saudi Arabia, we'll be helping to create a lot more refugees in the future.
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Jan 29, 2017 02:57
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