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Barry Convex posted:I'm sure some DSA folks were at his happy hours during his Abolish ICE period, but he's never been a member that I know uf Will say Pittsburgh DSA is mostly just folks, though definitely is way too white.
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Jan 19, 2021 20:36
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theo chino. absolute legend
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Jan 19, 2021 21:24
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Riot Bimbo posted:anyone here active with the Seattle chapter? just got a call for some organizing, and I gave my public email and let them sign me up, but I kinda want to make sure it's legit? I dunno. I expect giving the chapter dues money means i'm on a public list somewhere for it and I wanna make sure I'm not being hosed with. The Seattle chapter has like a dozen layers of legacy drama that explodes every so often to disengage everyone except the worst and newest members.
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Jan 19, 2021 21:48
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I do like the implication that the MPP isn't already, or at least destined to become, and extension of the Democratic party. It's top-down in the fashion of the Bernie campaign and the platform is the usual social democratic stuff i.e. they are not socialists and it is not an actual working class movement. Most of the people involved with or supportive of MPP will reliably vote Democrat if and when MPP candidates get pushed off the ballot by hook or by crook, so they don't represent an actual electoral threat to the Democrats. And, even if a couple candidates by some miracle managed to make it to Congress, the party platform is exactly the same poo poo that AOC, Omar, et al claim to support. I mean poo poo, the writing should have been on the wall when the supposed champion of the MPP, Nina Turner, announced she would run for office in Ohio on the Democratic party line.
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Jan 19, 2021 22:17
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But yeah, of course FTV was about drawing a line between leftist Dems and everyone else. I'm not convinced it was about bucketing people into MPP for everyone supporting it, but even if that's the case I doubt it will be very successful in that regard since, again, there is nothing to the MPP that isn't also being said by leftist Democrats, and while this might help make the case that the latter are being disingenuous, it does nothing to show people that the former are not. For my part I have to say that interacting with Ferrinus in this thread has made me more sympathetic to FTV, but I was previously, and remain, extremely skeptical of MPP.
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Jan 19, 2021 22:23
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Riot Bimbo posted:anyone here active with the Seattle chapter? just got a call for some organizing, and I gave my public email and let them sign me up, but I kinda want to make sure it's legit? I dunno. I expect giving the chapter dues money means i'm on a public list somewhere for it and I wanna make sure I'm not being hosed with. there's a lot of Drama as people mentioned but i mostly hung out with the workplace organizing collective folks and that's where i learned everything i know about that topic. great people!
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Jan 19, 2021 23:03
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DSA-NYC Queer Caucus had a good meeting tonight, we spoke with some folks from the Prisoner Correspondence Project about getting prisoner pen pals as part of our abolitionist organizing, as well as an upcoming meeting about Tax the Rich flyering
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Jan 20, 2021 02:38
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:But yeah, of course FTV was about drawing a line between leftist Dems and everyone else. I'm not convinced it was about bucketing people into MPP for everyone supporting it, but even if that's the case I doubt it will be very successful in that regard since, again, there is nothing to the MPP that isn't also being said by leftist Democrats, and while this might help make the case that the latter are being disingenuous, it does nothing to show people that the former are not. For my part I have to say that interacting with Ferrinus in this thread has made me more sympathetic to FTV, but I was previously, and remain, extremely skeptical of MPP. FTV had two sponsors: the jimmy dore show and the movement for a people's party. neither of these are socialist institutions and, as you say, neither of these even differ with the squad on any major policy. this is another way, besides the explicit statements to this effect by its leaders, that FTV is a branding tug-of-war that wavers between indifferent and actively hostile when it comes to actually organizing anything. there are plenty of leftists who see AOC and co as counterrevolutionary judas goats who the organized left should kick to the curb immediately, but theirs are principled positions which don't hinge on anyone's commitment to do-nothing parliamentary stunts or attempt to mislead the populace into thinking that it's those stunts that will make the difference between healthcare and not
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Jan 20, 2021 04:39
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Ferrinus posted:there are plenty of leftists who see AOC and co as counterrevolutionary judas goats who the organized left should kick to the curb immediately lol No purity tests for politicians folks. Purity tests for ordinary socialists with little or no power to affect change however? You bet your rear end Yossarian-22 has issued a correction as of 06:33 on Jan 20, 2021 |
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Jan 20, 2021 06:20
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Shiroc posted:The Seattle chapter has like a dozen layers of legacy drama that explodes every so often to disengage everyone except the worst and newest members. I'm pretty inactive. I managed to Do A Thing in the second week of CHAZ with the DSA there. The people I was with seemed pretty cool but nobody really seemed to know what the hell was going on and idk I felt kind of weird speaking for them, that they asked a rando to just do the thing where the DSA is being represented? I'd do it again, and I guess you kinda have to take whoever will show up after a certain point? But it felt weird and I kind of assumed, chaos above a certain level of interaction
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Jan 20, 2021 06:56
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Yossarian-22 posted:lol ??? i'm not sure what you're saying, or what you think I'M saying. it's a perfectly legitimate position to hold, and it is one held by many revolutionary socialists, which the FTV movement and the organizations sponsoring it are largely (perhaps entirely) not comprised of. it just has nothing to do with FTV. aoc is an agent of genocidal imperialism and both "medicare for all" and the "green new deal" will only serve to intensify the USA's rapacious exploitation of the third world... unless she's publicly mean to nancy pelosi? get serious Ferrinus has issued a correction as of 08:02 on Jan 20, 2021 |
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Jan 20, 2021 07:58
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Yossarian-22 posted:lol ferrinus meant that those people think AOC and the squad should be kicked to the curb, not that ferrinus thinks that those leftists should be kicked to the curb
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Jan 20, 2021 08:39
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i think the mistake youre making is conflating a bunch of MPP folks who in my experience are mostly well meaning people who havent quite reached the kind of class consciousness to lead them to explicitly socialist ideas plus the few cranks mixed in, with ultra-left maoist twitter people who treat AOC, the DSA and basically anyone and everything as reformist/opportunist/revisionist class traitors. the former should be engaged with and worked with when and if possible while the latter should be ignored cause theyre just irrelevant sectarians. really best case scenario would be groups like the DSA and MPP along with others coming together over time to form the outline of a new mass workers party but instead this debate has been consistently used by both sides not to advance the merits or demerits of the actual issue but instead to basically line it up as MPP vs DSA which is terrible cause it basically just splits the movement.
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Jan 20, 2021 13:58
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hey ferrinus is punishing trump still a more pressing concern than healthcare now that trump is out?
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Jan 20, 2021 14:49
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kingcobweb posted:ferrinus meant that those people think AOC and the squad should be kicked to the curb, not that ferrinus thinks that those leftists should be kicked to the curb ah okay, my bad if this is what you meant ferri
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Jan 21, 2021 01:46
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apropos to nothing posted:i think the mistake youre making is conflating a bunch of MPP folks who in my experience are mostly well meaning people who havent quite reached the kind of class consciousness to lead them to explicitly socialist ideas plus the few cranks mixed in, with ultra-left maoist twitter people who treat AOC, the DSA and basically anyone and everything as reformist/opportunist/revisionist class traitors. the former should be engaged with and worked with when and if possible while the latter should be ignored cause theyre just irrelevant sectarians. really best case scenario would be groups like the DSA and MPP along with others coming together over time to form the outline of a new mass workers party but instead this debate has been consistently used by both sides not to advance the merits or demerits of the actual issue but instead to basically line it up as MPP vs DSA which is terrible cause it basically just splits the movement. in the first place i'm actually not willing to dismiss people who hate aoc et al for the reasons outlined above as irrelevant sectarians. well, maybe a little - after all, i think it's worth it to do things like the city council races the NYC DSA is engaged in now and i think that despite her not being a marxist and periodically saying or voting for dumb poo poo (especially when it comes to international stuff) aoc was a good endorsement and represents a victory for both my local dsa and the org at large. that said, the hard left critique of her isn't wrong - she's part of the usamerikkkan consent manufacturing and war machine and the democrats are our enemies in the final accounting. i think leftists who counsel hard abstention from the democratic party or all electoral politics at all, or who demand 24/7 attack on people like aoc or ilhan omar, are wrong in their strategic estimation (running people like aoc or bernie is an attack on the democrats; whether someone actually has "D" next to their name on a ballot only has a small amount of bearing on where they stand because the democrats themselves are a brand rather than a party), but not in their basic working premises. like, if alison escalante was right that simply not enough of the working class participates in or even pays attention to electoral politics to make any electoral events significant, period, then i'm right there with her re: the futility of backing insurgent dems. it's a question of numbers and empirical experience. i'm certainly skeptical enough of electoral organizing that i personally do very little of it, though i'm not against pitching in when we need manpower! however, the direction you take your post there ends up leading us to what i think are some of the weakest criticisms of electoralism - the idea that a new, third party is our ultimate goal, such that shucking the "democrat" brand and being able to run a presidential candidate under the "People's DSA" or whatever a hypothetical dsa/mpp fusion calls itself represents a decisive win. but like i mentioned above, "party" is a funny word. an actual workers' party would be an articulator of working class party threaded through a whole mess of institutions, not just a new ballot line. maybe the dsa can become or give birth to that some day, but i don't think the MPP is anywhere close or even attempting to move in that direction, no more than the green party is. so there's nothing special about the MPP such that the dsa should pay special attention to courting them. is there even a "them" to court? how many people are "in" the movement for a people's party? what does it even mean to be in? what do they do? as far as i can tell the MPP is a number of figureheads with moderate-high to middling levels of credibility and a pretty logo. maybe they're also a mailing list and a donate link. as well, you are VASTLY overstating the extent to which this has constituted some kind of mutually destructive DSA/MPP fight at any point. most members of the DSA don't care about the FTV stunt in and of itself. they probably aren't even aware of the MPP connection or particularly aware that it matters. in this very thread the MPP was only brought up like one page ago in response to a tweet i linked! as for the MPP, i'm not even sure "MPP members" makes sense as a phrasing; certainly i've never seen a single person come swinging into an FTV debate with an intro like i'm in the MPP and i think.. FTV should absolutely not be understood as a fight between the DSA and the MPP, but as a maneuver performed by a small sector of MPP's leadership in a bid for greater mindshare. the maneuver flopped and came to nothing, and while it's interesting to analyze where it came from and why it failed it's a grave mistake to think that it represents some sort of important missed opportunity or failed alliance, because there was never mass buy-in to start with Ferrinus has issued a correction as of 03:06 on Jan 21, 2021 |
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Jan 21, 2021 03:02
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spacemang_spliff posted:hey ferrinus is punishing trump still a more pressing concern than healthcare now that trump is out? i don't know, it doesn't seem to be. as far as i can tell they're done with the impeachment stuff already? idk, i haven't been following it. now let me ask YOU a question: is healthcare a more pressing concern than the strike by hunts point market workers up in the bronx right now? AOC just showed up there tonight, but maybe she should be doing something healthcare-related instead. in fact, maybe that she's not shows she isn't even seriously FOR universal healthcare!
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Jan 21, 2021 03:03
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healthcare pls
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Jan 21, 2021 03:44
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that's what i keep saying, and yet i get this "strike" crap instead. aren't these people listening?
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Jan 21, 2021 04:07
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comedyblissoption posted:healthcare pls
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Jan 22, 2021 14:33
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Ferrinus posted:maybe that she's not shows she isn't even seriously FOR universal healthcare! correct AOC can do multiple things. I'm glad she's showing up for a strike. I wish she'd show up for UHC.
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Jan 22, 2021 14:34
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Ferrinus posted:strike by hunts point market workers up in the bronx right now? AOC just showed up there tonight, cool as hell
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Jan 22, 2021 21:19
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spacemang_spliff posted:correct well, your problem here is that you have been tricked by a confidence game, and now are confusing a particular parliamentary stunt with the actual objective of establishing universal health care. suddenly, everything besides the specific stunt (whose only actual purpose is MPP brand-building) looks like a dismissal or even outright betrayal of your priorities. like, did you know that the hunts point people are striking for healthcare as well as a one dollar raise? yes, that's right, employer-provided healthcare, which will only serve to make m4a look less necessary. downright counterrevolutionary!
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Jan 22, 2021 21:25
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Ferrinus posted:well, your problem here is that you have been tricked by a confidence game, and now are confusing a particular parliamentary stunt with the actual objective of establishing universal health care. suddenly, everything besides the specific stunt (whose only actual purpose is MPP brand-building) looks like a dismissal or even outright betrayal of your priorities. like, did you know that the hunts point people are striking for healthcare as well as a one dollar raise? yes, that's right, employer-provided healthcare, which will only serve to make m4a look less necessary. downright counterrevolutionary! what exactly is AOC doing to make UHC law as immediately as possible?
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Jan 22, 2021 21:58
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spacemang_spliff posted:what exactly is AOC doing to make UHC law as immediately as possible? supporting striking workers, because UHC or similar social democratic safety valves for capitalism are only ever going to be won in this country through the organization of a militant working class movement (especially against the police)
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Jan 22, 2021 22:06
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Ferrinus posted:supporting striking workers, because UHC or similar social democratic safety valves for capitalism are only ever going to be won in this country through the organization of a militant working class movement (especially against the police) when can we expect to see the fruits of this organization (against the police?), at what point do we expect "our electeds" to you know actually push the issue as legislation? 2 years? 4 years? 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?
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Jan 22, 2021 22:11
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spacemang_spliff posted:when can we expect to see the fruits of this organization (against the police?), at what point do we expect "our electeds" to you know actually push the issue as legislation? 2 years? 4 years? 10 years? 20 years? 30 years? it will probably take a long time, measured in years or even decades. unfortunately it is also the only way to do it. no matter what anyone says or does in the legislature, it will never give the working class one red cent until the working class is strong enough to threaten serious damage on the ruling class otherwise. it doesn't matter what party politicians say they're in, or how rude they are to each other, or what. socialist electeds are useful because they can help to build the socialist movement. they have no real power to act or make change outside of that movement.
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Jan 22, 2021 22:15
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Ferrinus posted:it will probably take a long time, measured in years or even decades. unfortunately it is also the only way to do it. no matter what anyone says or does in the legislature, it will never give the working class one red cent until the working class is strong enough to threaten serious damage on the ruling class otherwise. it doesn't matter what party politicians say they're in, or how rude they are to each other, or what. socialist electeds are useful because they can help to build the socialist movement. they have no real power to act or make change outside of that movement. you can just say "I don't know"
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Jan 22, 2021 22:19
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spacemang_spliff posted:you can just say "I don't know" i know to an extent. it's certainly not happening in six months or something like that, and it's certainly not going to happen or not happen on the basis of who votes for pelosi for speaker. the important point is that it does not turn on how politicians treat each other on the news
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Jan 22, 2021 22:24
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Ferrinus posted:i know to an extent. it's certainly not happening in six months or something like that, and it's certainly not going to happen or not happen on the basis of who votes for pelosi for speaker. the important point is that it does not turn on how politicians treat each other on the news if you know then why be coy about it?
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Jan 22, 2021 22:26
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spacemang_spliff posted:if you know then why be coy about it? i'm not being coy about it! i LITERALLY just told you the extent to which i know! holy poo poo!
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Jan 22, 2021 22:38
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now I'M the guy who has the power to give you healthcare but is cruelly withholding it due to a personal commitment to evil. liberalism is a plague
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Jan 22, 2021 22:39
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Ferrinus posted:i'm not being coy about it! i LITERALLY just told you the extent to which i know! holy poo poo! "years or decades" from now is not exactly "knowing to an extent" I have no clue when we're supposed to expect self described socialists in office to push for socialist things, me saying "it will be at some indeterminate point in the future" is a longer way of saying "I have no idea"
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Jan 22, 2021 22:44
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spacemang_spliff posted:"years or decades" from now is not exactly "knowing to an extent" it is an extent, because it cuts off, for intance, "by the end of the next legislative session". building proletarian power in a country like the united states is necessarily slow going and involves a lot of compromises and false starts. i can't help but point out, however, that you've sneakily changed what we're talking about. we started talking about "make(ing) UHC law". suddenly, you're talking to me not about passing universal healthcare legislation (an actual action with material effects), but, instead, "socialists in office ... push(ing) for socialist things." what happened there? did you even notice your substitution? but if that's all you want, i have great news: socialist politicians are already pushing for socialist things and have been for years. you've already got what you want
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Jan 22, 2021 22:59
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i demand to get to the bottom of why Ferrinus is personally denying me healthcare.
kingcobweb has issued a correction as of 23:06 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 23:02
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Ferrinus posted:now I'M the guy who has the power to give you healthcare but is cruelly withholding it due to a personal commitment to evil. liberalism is a plague I don't think that, obviously. I do think you're blowing smoke up my rear end in the same way liberals do when they say "Well we just need to get 61 seats in the Senate and the House and the White House and then we can transition from the ACA" It's okay to say "I don't know when we can expect to see results". I'd respect it if you did!
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Jan 22, 2021 23:41
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Ferrinus posted:it is an extent, because it cuts off, for intance, "by the end of the next legislative session". building proletarian power in a country like the united states is necessarily slow going and involves a lot of compromises and false starts. Fine, pretend I said "I have no clue when we're supposed to expect self described socialists in office to push for UHC"
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Jan 22, 2021 23:43
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spacemang_spliff posted:I don't think that, obviously. I do think you're blowing smoke up my rear end in the same way liberals do when they say "Well we just need to get 61 seats in the Senate and the House and the White House and then we can transition from the ACA" see? see?? now i'm part of the conspiracy. now i'm one of the democrats pulling the football away when you try to get healthcare. they really got you good. spacemang_spliff posted:Fine, pretend I said "I have no clue when we're supposed to expect self described socialists in office to push for UHC" i already did pretend you said that, and answered you in the very post you are quoting: we already have self described socialists in office pushing for UHC. they've been doing so for years. oh but maybe they're not REALLY pushing for uhc unless they perform [specific parliamentarian stunt]. maybe their failure to grow the MPP mailing list has revealed them to be betrayers, because that's actually the best and only way to get healthcare. well in that case i guess you're freed of the responsibility to do anything but grouse about it, because change comes from my favorite politicians doing epic owns on my least favorite politicians and not from organizing
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Jan 23, 2021 00:01
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Ferrinus posted:see? see?? now i'm part of the conspiracy. now i'm one of the democrats pulling the football away when you try to get healthcare. they really got you good. I came into this thread skeptical of the DSA. Hoping to find something, something that would show me I was being misguided. I don't think I was tbh. You're welcome to point to any post where I said change doesn't come from organizing or that organizing is bad. What is the MPP? Why do you think I give a poo poo about them?
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Jan 23, 2021 00:33
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spacemang_spliff posted:I came into this thread skeptical of the DSA. Hoping to find something, something that would show me I was being misguided. I don't think I was tbh. lol, see? it's exactly as i said. you came in here looking for an excuse not to do anything... and lucky for you, you found it! in fact the nation's biggest socialist organization is just a bunch of collaborators, every politician associated with them is secretly on nancy pelosi's side, there is no forward motion and no hope. just stay inside and post more the MPP is a fundraising drive and mailing list that backed FTV in an attempt to peel off disaffected or potential DSA members. i'm not surprised you don't know about them, because FTV is a failure on both its public and its private terms. it's purely demobilizing, not even successful as a grift Ferrinus has issued a correction as of 00:57 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 00:55
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