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of course it also raises another point he could rightly be criticized for which is why is he part of a party that will vote to uphold right to work? with the answer being yeah good question why is he? and so he should not be a democrat.
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Mar 5, 2021 23:47
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What's the mechanism for DSA endorsed candidates to toe the line? Un-endorsement? And are the Bread and Roses people really electoralists or are they more towards what appropos is talking about?
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Mar 5, 2021 23:51
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is there a rule over winning an election as part of the democratic party and saying wow this party sucks i hate this party
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Mar 6, 2021 00:00
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ToxicAcne posted:What's the mechanism for DSA endorsed candidates to toe the line? Un-endorsement? And are the Bread and Roses people really electoralists or are they more towards what appropos is talking about? isn't bread and roses run by a sex pest goon
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Mar 6, 2021 00:03
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apropos to nothing posted:of course it also raises another point he could rightly be criticized for which is why is he part of a party that will vote to uphold right to work? with the answer being yeah good question why is he? and so he should not be a democrat. whether one should use the democratic party ballot line seems like a pragmatic, highly contextual question. lots of states have onerous election laws for third parties that make them even harder than normal to get people elected with, some states like new york have fusion voting, etc. and then in states where the laws are bad, there are different mechanisms to change them: ballot initiatives in some states, legal challenges based on the state constitution in others, etc. i agree there are tons of reasons not to associate with dems, but whether it would make sense or not for carter to run under a different party in the state of virginia is a question that can't be answered without studying the particulars of the electoral structure of the state. shunning the democratic party ballot line in all cases for reasons of ideology seems like a strategic mistake
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Mar 6, 2021 00:05
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Yossarian-22 posted:isn't bread and roses run by a sex pest goon i think there's a dsa bread and roses caucus which is something different than the bread and roses offsite cspam forum
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Mar 6, 2021 00:06
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Finicums Wake posted:i think there's a dsa bread and roses caucus which is something different than the bread and roses offsite cspam forum Yeah that was what I was talking about. I've been watching Leo Panitch's lectures and interviews on Youtube and he seemed to think they had the right idea. But the Democratic party isn't really a party in the same way as Labour is. The membership, at least ostensibly, has control over the party. That doesn't exist in America.
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Mar 6, 2021 00:26
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Finicums Wake posted:whether one should use the democratic party ballot line seems like a pragmatic, highly contextual question. lots of states have onerous election laws for third parties that make them even harder than normal to get people elected with, some states like new york have fusion voting, etc. and then in states where the laws are bad, there are different mechanisms to change them: ballot initiatives in some states, legal challenges based on the state constitution in others, etc. i agree there are tons of reasons not to associate with dems, but whether it would make sense or not for carter to run under a different party in the state of virginia is a question that can't be answered without studying the particulars of the electoral structure of the state. shunning the democratic party ballot line in all cases for reasons of ideology seems like a strategic mistake disagree and the most recent minimum wage vote imo is the most clear example of why. most people associate democrats with, democrats. they dont differentiate between aoc is a socialist but manchin is a conservative. theres ds and theres rs. obviously you know individuals that are your reps or that have national prominence but does anyone really know or care that john thune is the minority whip or know any of his individual positions on any issues? so basically you get lumped in together. its toxic for socialists to be associated with the democratic party, it completely hides the ideas and political program of socialists to keep it buried in the dems. political independence isnt just a strategic question it is imo a core principle that goes back to the earliest writings of the earliest socialists, and specifically marx. its like the stipulation that workers representatives must only take the average salary of the workers they represent and no more, it goes all the way back to the paris commune. you have to clearly differentiate yourself from the capitalist politicians and running as democrats does not do that for the vast majority of people in my experience. doesnt mean i dont consider the likes of AOC and carter socialists, or folks in the DSA who support the idea as not being socialist enough or something, but I do see it as a grave mistake and really going against what I think should be core political principles for socialists and genuinely hope theyll be convinced of that in time, hopefully very little time.
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Mar 6, 2021 00:33
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comedyblissoption posted:i glanced at this thread and then googled about it and the characterization of what carter did seems totally at odds with what he did do Well that will teach me to investigate more before posting. Thanks!
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Mar 6, 2021 00:37
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i stand by all my snide comments even under assuming the absurd mischaracterization that lee carter was an rear end in a top hat to everyone around him and did this totally rambo with no support from any other democrats or activists was true because i was operating under that context at the time and b/c it's funnier
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Mar 6, 2021 00:45
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comedyblissoption posted:i stand by all my snide comments even under assuming the absurd mischaracterization that lee carter was an rear end in a top hat to everyone around him and did this totally rambo with no support from any other democrats or activists was true because i was operating under that context at the time and b/c it's funnier same, op
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Mar 6, 2021 00:51
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i'm guessing that carter ended up alienating those dozen other legislators with him as part of doing the legal maneuver with no real follow-through. it's funny that it served as cover for someone who literally co-sponsored the thing he was pushing to vote against it though
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Mar 6, 2021 00:52
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Ferrinus posted:i'm guessing that carter ended up alienating those dozen other legislators with him as part of doing the legal maneuver with no real follow-through. it's funny that it served as cover for someone who literally co-sponsored the thing he was pushing to vote against it though like talking to a brick wall
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Mar 6, 2021 00:55
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please delineate the lie
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Mar 6, 2021 00:56
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comedyblissoption posted:i stand by all my snide comments even under assuming the absurd mischaracterization that lee carter was an rear end in a top hat to everyone around him and did this totally rambo with no support from any other democrats or activists was true because i was operating under that context at the time and b/c it's funnier fair enough, i didn't take it personally anyways. a bit silly in retrospect to assume that establishment democrats would be fully honest about it anyways comedyblissoption posted:and b/c it's funnier undoubtedly lol
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Mar 6, 2021 01:44
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lee is a mess but lmao at taking the post seriously from the person who says terry loving macauliife is good. i mean unless youre like a nestle shareholder or something
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Mar 6, 2021 02:13
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comedyblissoption posted:is there a rule over winning an election as part of the democratic party and saying wow this party sucks i hate this party The VAN usage agreement says you can't disparage the party. Probably bunch of other corporate things like that to impede someone.
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Mar 6, 2021 02:52
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Sylink posted:The VAN usage agreement says you can't disparage the party. Probably bunch of other corporate things like that to impede someone. they maintain formally sanctioned blacklists of firms that work with challengers as well (but only some challengers)
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Mar 6, 2021 02:53
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Ferrinus posted:i'm guessing that carter ended up alienating those dozen other legislators with him as part of doing the legal maneuver with no real follow-through. it's funny that it served as cover for someone who literally co-sponsored the thing he was pushing to vote against it though Look if you're just a liberal and fundamentally don't understand that the goal of electing a socialist is to basically purposefully gently caress up and make back room dealing harder, then I guess Lee Carter is not your guy. What part of this are you having trouble with.
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Mar 6, 2021 03:50
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Larry Parrish posted:Look if you're just a liberal and fundamentally don't understand that the goal of electing a socialist is to basically purposefully gently caress up and make back room dealing harder, then I guess Lee Carter is not your guy. What part of this are you having trouble with. seems like it actually made backroom dealing easier because it gave backers of right to work even more precedents to reject it
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Mar 6, 2021 04:25
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is there an example of successful backroom dealing to implement socialism it would seem like the missing component isn't nicety, but leverage.
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Mar 6, 2021 07:04
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the mistake people are making is fetishizing nicety or lack thereof, hence confusion over why the rough-n-rowdy tea party gets their way while the left does not
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Mar 6, 2021 07:15
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Ferrinus posted:the mistake people are making is fetishizing nicety or lack thereof, hence confusion over why the rough-n-rowdy tea party gets their way while the left does not I was thinking of the tea party but i also have the suspicion that the democrat party is more resistant to that sort of tactic, if only because they come across as a lot more willing to intentionally lose elections before they'd engage with populism. im thinking of the experience with british labor where the blarites were genuinely disappointed corbyn didnt eat poo poo vs theresa may and worked to sabotage their party internally at every junction, while the conservative parties here and there are a lot more willing to go along with anything that preserves their constituents interests. Maybe its just something as simple as a lack of primary election threat for one reason or another, or maybe its the issue where socialism is too incompatible with those oligarchical interests to ever be acceptable to those theoretical smoke room hangouts? Hence why I'd like to know what's been successful in the past since a lot of the discussion on strategy has been on what hasn't worked. Tiler Kiwi has issued a correction as of 07:48 on Mar 6, 2021 |
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Mar 6, 2021 07:37
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i flatly don't think the tea party's tactics, rhetorical style, or whatever else should be seen as anything but tangential to the fact that they were astroturfed by the super-rich and served the interests of capital. it truly didn't matter how crazy they may have sounded; they had a license to come off however they liked because they were just cheerleaders for the winning team
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Mar 6, 2021 07:48
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it wasn't going to pass either way. so who cares if carter "alienated" a bunch of libs who weren't going to vote for it in the first place. why do you even care at all one way or another.
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Mar 6, 2021 07:52
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i don't really care about carter, but i do care about "ugh why can't the dsa be as influential as the [right wing movement]" discourse because it betrays a serious misunderstanding
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Mar 6, 2021 08:06
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I think people want elected socialists to throw their weight around and actively push for the things they represent in contrast to the Democrats who hem and haw about how they can't do anything
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Mar 6, 2021 08:31
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apropos to nothing posted:disagree and the most recent minimum wage vote imo is the most clear example of why. most people associate democrats with, democrats. they dont differentiate between aoc is a socialist but manchin is a conservative. theres ds and theres rs. obviously you know individuals that are your reps or that have national prominence but does anyone really know or care that john thune is the minority whip or know any of his individual positions on any issues? so basically you get lumped in together. its toxic for socialists to be associated with the democratic party, it completely hides the ideas and political program of socialists to keep it buried in the dems. political independence isnt just a strategic question it is imo a core principle that goes back to the earliest writings of the earliest socialists, and specifically marx. its like the stipulation that workers representatives must only take the average salary of the workers they represent and no more, it goes all the way back to the paris commune. you have to clearly differentiate yourself from the capitalist politicians and running as democrats does not do that for the vast majority of people in my experience. doesnt mean i dont consider the likes of AOC and carter socialists, or folks in the DSA who support the idea as not being socialist enough or something, but I do see it as a grave mistake and really going against what I think should be core political principles for socialists and genuinely hope theyll be convinced of that in time, hopefully very little time. if the options are between getting an aoc or lee carter figure elected to agitate within the elected body rather than run a principled but failed campaign, i'll take the former over the latter. i don't disagree with anything that you're saying about the problems with running socialists under the d ballot line, and why we ought avoid it wherever possible. i think i'm just more wary of the barriers socialists face to doing so. in many contexts--many more than i suspect are being taken advantage of--i think there are opportunities for leftists to build a workers party. all i'm saying is that, absent a study or analysis of virginia's electoral situation and the relative strength of socialist orgs there, idk if l ee had such an opportunity
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Mar 6, 2021 10:06
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indigi posted:I think people want elected socialists to throw their weight around and actively push for the things they represent in contrast to the Democrats who hem and haw about how they can't do anything yes, but... carter completely failed to do that. the weight he threw around was that of a soap bubble. maybe i'm speaking prematurely here and his public frustration can serve as the fuel for a second and more militant round of organizing, but that's not what it looks like so far. the point is not to achieve catharsis, the point is to improve your strategic position actually i want to go back to something from earlier because the more i think about it the more it bothers me apropos to nothing posted:disagree and the most recent minimum wage vote imo is the most clear example of why. most people associate democrats with, democrats. they dont differentiate between aoc is a socialist but manchin is a conservative. theres ds and theres rs. obviously you know individuals that are your reps or that have national prominence but does anyone really know or care that john thune is the minority whip or know any of his individual positions on any issues? so basically you get lumped in together. its toxic for socialists to be associated with the democratic party, it completely hides the ideas and political program of socialists to keep it buried in the dems. political independence isnt just a strategic question it is imo a core principle that goes back to the earliest writings of the earliest socialists, and specifically marx. its like the stipulation that workers representatives must only take the average salary of the workers they represent and no more, it goes all the way back to the paris commune. you have to clearly differentiate yourself from the capitalist politicians and running as democrats does not do that for the vast majority of people in my experience. doesnt mean i dont consider the likes of AOC and carter socialists, or folks in the DSA who support the idea as not being socialist enough or something, but I do see it as a grave mistake and really going against what I think should be core political principles for socialists and genuinely hope theyll be convinced of that in time, hopefully very little time. the idea that "most people" simply cannot tell the difference between one democrat and another and need to get their attention caught by a different color or label is dumb and condescending. there's a mistake a lot of leftists both in and outside dsa make with regards to the idea of The Party, which i think flows from the weird ways that common political terms get used in the USA specifically (for instance, what "liberal" means here vs. what it means in the wider world) specifically, in the USA, "party", as in "the democratic party", refers to a brand, a ballot line, and maybe like a particular cabal of crypt lords which makes a venn diagram but not a perfect circle with the other cabal that pulls the strings of the longest-standing politicians in the republican party. so here in NYC we're running a bunch of people on the democratic ballot line for city council, and, and this involves registration drives to make sure people are officially members of the democratic party so they can vote in the next primary, and predictably you get these ortho trots losing their poo poo. we're funneling people into the democratic party! we're just making people join the democratic party! a capitalist party! here's the thing, though: you can't actually "join" the democratic party, or be "in" the democratic party, unless you're one of a small group of hyper-rich donors. having a card which entitles you to vote in the democratic primary in no way enmeshes, implicates, or aligns you with the machinations of the national machine. indeed, this is why democrats in new york use classic republican vote suppression techniques for their own primaries - they don't want to have to pretend to respect people's votes! they just want to handpick their most reliable toadies and watch them coast to the finish! a "party" in the sense it's used in the wider world and certainly in the sense in which it applies to socialist organizing is a clearinghouse for its constituent working-class organizations to bring forward and work out their issues, and an articulator class demands. it's not a ballot line. it's a locus of social and political life that is in constant operation whether or not there's an election on, and does things like mobilize comrades to your door if you're getting evicted or rally protesters to your place of work if you're on strike or send volunteers to deliver groceries to you when you're in lockdown. whether an actual party has its own ballot line or just uses an existing ballot line is a question of logistics and resources; it's cool if it has its own, but whether or not it has its own is not actually decisive but rather downstream of actual, serious questions of party strength and party building in short, obsession with running third party for the sake of being third party is a pernicious left-wing cargo cult
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Mar 6, 2021 19:08
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ruling from the parliamentarian: ferrinus you do not have the floor
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Mar 6, 2021 19:20
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Ferrinus is an AI created to drive people away from the DSA by being such a pedantic windbag the org is tarred by association
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Mar 6, 2021 21:46
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hey at least i use paragraph breaks
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Mar 6, 2021 21:53
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Ferrinus posted:hey at least i use paragraph breaks jfc dude
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Mar 6, 2021 22:05
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"you're an annoying dweeb, gently caress off." ferrinus: "maybe try a semicolon next time" edit: i don't even dislike your posting. that was the worst response though lmao
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Mar 6, 2021 22:07
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i obviously disagree and the conflation of the democratic party as just a ballot line really misrepresents what the democratic party is. it does have a political program and its controlled by the super donors and political elite within the party. also saying most people dont know the difference between random rs and ds isnt calling them stupid or condescending like you assume it is, i dont know every state house rep or senator in my state save for some key ones and my locals, so yeah i make some large assumptions about them based off their party, if im bein condescending or calling people stupid then im saying it about myself. its totally reasonable for people to assume members of the same party have similar or shared political goals. im not losing my poo poo about people being pushed back into the democratic party, im not calling people who do it opportunists or class traitors, im saying i disagree with it for the reasons i laid out. im sorry that the sep was mean to you about it, theyre mean to everyone, so enjoy. its also not an obsession with a "third party" alone, it is the need for party structures. from what ive seen of the dsa argument about using the ballot line its we will create a party like structure in the dems and so theyre just using it but the real party is the organization theyre making. except that doesnt actually exist, there isnt even a party formation that is being used, individual dsa members decide to run typically and theres no decision by the org to run certain candidates in certain areas. if it did function the way many people claim it should, id still be critical of the approach but a lot less so. the way its currently done doesnt even gel with how its pitched.
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Mar 6, 2021 22:10
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Based on the revolutions' podcast by Mike Duncan it seemed like Lenin didn't eschew electoralism but believed in using the duma to be as much of a disruptive gadfly as possible. Whatever achieves that outcome, I am for it. Clearly, trying to actually achieve reforms at this stage is counterproductive towards any kind of revolutionary agitation, and the most effective thing you can do is demonstrate the fecklessness of Congress as much as possible such that people break with electoralism I haven't followed the Lee Carter saga but I would hope he's trying to follow in those footsteps. I think Bernie forcing the vote (lol) on the minimum wage was a good move for similar reasons
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Mar 6, 2021 22:12
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Yossarian-22 posted:Based on the revolutions' podcast by Mike Duncan it seemed like Lenin didn't eschew electoralism but believed in using the duma to be as much of a disruptive gadfly as possible. Whatever achieves that outcome, I am for it. Clearly, trying to actually achieve reforms at this stage is counterproductive towards any kind of revolutionary agitation, and the most effective thing you can do is demonstrate the fecklessness of Congress as much as possible such that people break with electoralism It's important to use every tool available to you, but not to lean on any single one, and especially dont lean on one of your weakest for no better reason than the rich and powerful have told you its your strongest
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Mar 6, 2021 22:15
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socialists should absolutely participate in and use elections, but like lenin and marx argued, it should be done on a clearly independent working class line, and not as part of capitalist or liberal parties. a lot of the arguments for using the democratic ballot line boil down to it would be very difficult to have an independent socialist ballot line but like, something being difficult doesnt really justify not doing the work to achieve it imo.
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Mar 6, 2021 22:19
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apropos to nothing posted:i obviously disagree and the conflation of the democratic party as just a ballot line really misrepresents what the democratic party is. it does have a political program and its controlled by the super donors and political elite within the party. also saying most people dont know the difference between random rs and ds isnt calling them stupid or condescending like you assume it is, i dont know every state house rep or senator in my state save for some key ones and my locals, so yeah i make some large assumptions about them based off their party, if im bein condescending or calling people stupid then im saying it about myself. its totally reasonable for people to assume members of the same party have similar or shared political goals. im not losing my poo poo about people being pushed back into the democratic party, im not calling people who do it opportunists or class traitors, im saying i disagree with it for the reasons i laid out. im sorry that the sep was mean to you about it, theyre mean to everyone, so enjoy. the democratic party has a political program and certainly CERTAIN people are "in" it. those people are just not the people who are registered as democratic party voters such that they can vote in dem primaries. they're not even the people who run and win as democratic politicians in most cases. so the entire idea that dsa is shifting people into the party, that it's becoming part of the party, etc betrays a fundamental misunderstanding both of what a worker's party is and what the "democratic" "party" is the important thing to get here is that running candidates is the least important thing that a worker's party does. if we had a worker's party, we could run candidates or not run them, and we could run those candidates on whatever ballot line we saw fit, because we'd have a strength an organization deriving from tenants' unions and workplaces and so on that could exert power on the state through a variety of mechanisms of which the ballot line is but one. and among my comrades who both are or aren't enmeshed in electoral work, i don't really see people who think we can build a worker's party "inside" the democrats, because, again, the democrats aren't actually a party in the first place (certainly some dsa people do, wrongly, think like this but it's not the only reason to use the dem ballot line) here in new york we have an empirical example of how pointless merely running on a third ballot line is: the "Working Families Party", which is a completely toothless adjunct of the establishment democrats Ferrinus has issued a correction as of 22:55 on Mar 6, 2021 |
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Mar 6, 2021 22:49
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Ferrinus posted:yes, but... carter completely failed to do that. the weight he threw around was that of a soap bubble. maybe i'm speaking prematurely here and his public frustration can serve as the fuel for a second and more militant round of organizing, but that's not what it looks like so far. the point is not to achieve catharsis, the point is to improve your strategic position yeah but he tried, and that’s what some people want to see. also idk if he could have improved his strategic position under any circumstances, given the last three years
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Mar 6, 2021 23:54
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