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SmugDogMillionaire posted:Jon's decision is perfectly understandable. His internal thoughts about going south aren't about the watch or protecting them, it's about arya. This a million times. Arya is all Jon has left. He has sent his friends away to help strengthen the Watch, he has purposefully alienated himself from any would-be new friends due to his need to remain aloof and retain command, and basically done everything he can to make sure the Watch survives, while doing his best to live up to what his father would have wanted him to do. Despite all of these innumerable personal sacrifices, Marsh and the other captains basically hate him and do everything they can to undermine him, and he feels like he can't change anything. Now along comes news that his sole remaining family member is about to be married off to the insidious son of the man who betrayed and murdered his brother while said brother was at his own loving wedding. I don't see why people have such a hard time understanding that Arya is the only person left in the world who Jon would break his vows for, and that Jon found a way (in his mind at least) to keep from having his men break their vows. I've never been a fan of Jon Snow but seriously in that moment, I felt like he was taking his first steps toward being a real hero. gently caress the vows, gently caress the bull poo poo rules and promises - his sister needed him and he was going to stop at nothing to help her. That's admirable, even if it did get him killed.
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Aug 17, 2011 03:48
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I finally just finished this and just feel pissed off. I really liked the book until the last 150 pages or so. So he literally just killed Jon and blueballed us with zero resolution to any of the other plot threads besides maybe Arya. God drat. gently caress.
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Aug 17, 2011 03:59
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Unzip and Attack posted:This a million times. Arya is all Jon has left. He has sent his friends away to help strengthen the Watch, he has purposefully alienated himself from any would-be new friends due to his need to remain aloof and retain command, and basically done everything he can to make sure the Watch survives, while doing his best to live up to what his father would have wanted him to do. Despite all of these innumerable personal sacrifices, Marsh and the other captains basically hate him and do everything they can to undermine him, and he feels like he can't change anything. Now along comes news that his sole remaining family member is about to be married off to the insidious son of the man who betrayed and murdered his brother while said brother was at his own loving wedding. The letter says "return my wife and my reek", so Jon knows 'Arya' is not there. His men doubt him but they remain completely loyal, as he didn't betray them. Not until he suddenly does betray them when they are helplessly outnumbered (because they trusted him). Jon reads like a bad horror film, blatantly ignoring every warning, then doing something completely opposite of everything he had ever done previously. His men had no choice, Jon betrayed all of them (though the reader knows he hadn't planned too all along). Killing him was the right decision and he deserved it. Bringing tens of thousands of wildlings across the wall, arming them, and then just walking off like it wouldn't cause a civil war and kill all of his friends. The fact he didn't want his brothers to break their vows is irrelevant. Without him, the truce ends, his brothers die, and the wall fails. Umph fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Aug 17, 2011 |
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Aug 17, 2011 03:59
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Umph posted:His men doubt him but they remain completely loyal, as he didn't betray them. I really disagree with this - they didn't go from "completely loyal" to "let's kill this fucker" in a matter of minutes. Marsh and his lackeys were planning it for a while I think.
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Aug 17, 2011 04:25
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Umph posted:The letter says "return my wife and my reek", so Jon knows 'Arya' is not there. His men doubt him but they remain completely loyal, as he didn't betray them. Not until he suddenly does betray them when they are helplessly outnumbered (because they trusted him). Jon reads like a bad horror film, blatantly ignoring every warning, then doing something completely opposite of everything he had ever done previously. His men had no choice, Jon betrayed all of them (though the reader knows he hadn't planned too all along). Bollocks. He was going to take the wildlings south away from the wall that didn't want them there. If Stannis was dead no one was going to be sending anyone to serve the wall. If he sat there and did nothing, he'd just be watching a bunch of dudes starving to death while the others finnally came down and killed a handful of skinny hungry ex-cons protecting the realm. From where Jon was standing, if a Lannister kid sat the iron throne and Ramsay Bolton was sitting on winterfell, with nothing but oathbreakers in between, there was no realm to protect and nothing coming with which to protect it. He was totally doing the right thing for everyone. IMNSHO
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Aug 17, 2011 06:41
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insider posted:I finally just finished this and just feel pissed off. I really liked the book until the last 150 pages or so. No. Arya doesn't really get any true plot resolution, she immediately gets new problems that are alot worse. She's might go insane from warging into the cat or flunk out of the murderer training academy or she might not.
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Aug 17, 2011 06:41
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Rosscifer posted:No. Arya doesn't really get any true plot resolution, she immediately gets new problems that are alot worse. She's might go insane from warging into the cat or flunk out of the murderer training academy or she might not. There was some resolution to the Arya plot - it was basically her getting into the big leagues, I guess. She had all this other training and poo poo but all through her arcs, the only thing the priests talk about is how significant and major giving the gift to someone is. Finally, she does it - it's a much more major step towards being "you're one of us now" than just being blinded is.
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Aug 17, 2011 06:54
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hellbastard posted:Bollocks. He was going to take the wildlings south away from the wall that didn't want them there. If Stannis was dead no one was going to be sending anyone to serve the wall. If he sat there and did nothing, he'd just be watching a bunch of dudes starving to death while the others finnally came down and killed a handful of skinny hungry ex-cons protecting the realm. From where Jon was standing, if a Lannister kid sat the iron throne and Ramsay Bolton was sitting on winterfell, with nothing but oathbreakers in between, there was no realm to protect and nothing coming with which to protect it. Reminder that within Jon's own lifetime the king of the entire realm was a lunatic whose bedroom antics made Ramsey look tame and who loved burning people alive. Jon is hardly the first Commander of the NW to find himself guarding a realm run by scum; in comparison to Aery's, a Lannister king (in effect the very capable Ser Kevan) is no big deal. Sure Jon may feel he's in a desperate situation thanks to The Others, but the smart thing for tne NW to do would be to secure evidence of The Others existence and send it to KL (without it rotting this time). If anything he should want to realm to be united asap (ie. under Tommen, since any Stannis victory would take years and years), rather than prolonging a divisive war that distracts from the 'real threat' of the Others. Tywin didn't want to help the NW because he saw it as a good thing to have the traitorous north put under threat from the wildlings; the sooner the north is brought back into the king's peace, the sooner Jon gets the help he needs. Even without takiing into account his oath and his duty to his brothers (ie. not to get them all killed fighting someone else's war), staying neutral is still the right call for Jon.
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Aug 17, 2011 07:27
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I know about the oath. I don't know that it means the NW has to stand numb and idle when directly threatened by... anyone from the realm. The letter said, "Do what I say (and all of this is vague because 'my wife' isn't Arya and 'My Reek?') or I will come up there in force and make you and yours regret it. Did I read that wrong? Does the NW oath mean that they have no ability to fight back when directly threatened by this lord or that? I thought that Jon made a good case that he was answering a direct threat from Bolton and it had nothing to do with vows, or "Arya," or the realm or family. It was more like, "This Lord has involved us. He's said he'll bring his force against us if we don't succumb to his demands." Is that really oath-breaking? Of course haters like Bowen Marsh will make that case and summon as many assassins as possible on the strength of that argument. I just don't think that Jon's decision to answer Bolton's threat necessarily breaks his oath. I'll be surprised if that really turns out tho be the judgement Jon lives or dies on, because even with the barely tenable situation Jon was in, there were many who rallied to his cause, NW brothers and Wildlings who felt the threat from "Winterfell," and at least the NW (especially since Jon sent his closest friends to go do the business of the NW) mostly rallied around him in defense of the NW. I think there's wiggle room there. The REAL question is did the assassination attempt actually kill him (thus releasing him from his vows forever.) If not, then the whole "they talked for hours" thing very well could have meant "they talked for hours" equals "they planned a way for Jon to act free of his vows, because these guys trust him and believe in him," and Jon's like Jesus in his self-sacrifice. It's a long shot and a huge gamble, but I don't buy that responding to Bolton's (or Mance's) direct (in the case of Mance, maybe manufactured?) threats constitute oath-breaking, nor deserving the sentence of death. It's messy and it's open to debate, but that is a pretty good description of what we like and dislike about the whole series. I just hope we aren't still wondering about this in 2017+.
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Aug 17, 2011 08:46
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Dr. Faustus posted:I think there's wiggle room there. The REAL question is did the assassination attempt actually kill him (thus releasing him from his vows forever.) If not, then the whole "they talked for hours" thing very well could have meant "they talked for hours" equals "they planned a way for Jon to act free of his vows, because these guys trust him and believe in him," and Jon's like Jesus in his self-sacrifice. It's a long shot and a huge gamble, but I don't buy that responding to Bolton's (or Mance's) direct (in the case of Mance, maybe manufactured?) threats constitute oath-breaking, nor deserving the sentence of death. It's messy and it's open to debate, but that is a pretty good description of what we like and dislike about the whole series. This is an interesting analysis but when readers need to somersault like that to explain a crucial part of the book, it usually means that the writer has completely lost direction and is making poo poo up as he goes, contradicting himself. Jon's previous chapter ends like this: Dead things in the wood. Dead things in the water. Night falls, and now my war begins. We now know that the Others/Wights could possibly cross rivers and seas. This is both weird and cool: if they can just go around the Wall, the whole concept of the Night Watch is kind of silly (I am the shield that guards the realms of men should be toned down some if Mortimer McDead can swim to White Harbor), but on the other hand this makes zombies legitimately dangerous. Regardless, it's cool, they are a real, impending danger, and that last sentence seems to imply some bad poo poo is going to happen. One chapter later Jon receives the infamous letter from Ramsay/Mance, completely loses his poo poo, and get stabbed to death (or not) by his brothers. This is an ending that makes you hate the Night Watch and Jon in equal measure. No your war doesn't begin, you just get stabbed because you want to throw your vows away after years of sacrifice, including refusing your father's seat to stay with your rear end in a top hat racist sneaky "brothers" of the Night Watch. Wow. Did anyone see that coming? No, because Martin didn't plan it. Jon's story arc takes a nosedive because he doesn't know how to finish it after setting it up so masterfully at the end of ASoS.
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Aug 17, 2011 11:02
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Jon will probably be resurrected by Melisandre since she's right there.
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Aug 17, 2011 12:37
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Will Zombie Jon be anything like Zombie Catelyn? Starks: retarded in life, unreasonable in death.
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Aug 17, 2011 12:43
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Paino posted:Will Zombie Jon be anything like Zombie Catelyn? So many zombies. Ice zombies. Fire zombies. Gregor the  zombie. The stone zombies.It's amazing anyone stays dead at all.
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Aug 17, 2011 12:57
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Unkempt posted:So many zombies. Ice zombies. Fire zombies. Gregor the I love that one of the selling points I've used to recommend this series to other is that you should never get attached to any one character because he [GRRM] will kill anyone and everyone you love. Oh, how far we have fallen. 
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Aug 17, 2011 13:19
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edit: ^^^ yeah, what you saidPaino posted:Will Zombie Jon be anything like Zombie Catelyn? I'm assuming not because Cat went mad in the moments before her death, and was left dead for a long time, so she was pretty far gone in almost every sense before she was resurrected. She's not really Catelyn Stark any more, just a mad vengeance zombie. Dondarion on the other hand was growing increasingly detached and hosed but was still basically Beric Dondarion after resurrection. That seems more like the way that Jon will go. If he has warged off into Ghost then that might change things somewhat, but gently caress knows how. I do feel like by now Gurms insistence that nobody has plot armour is looking a bit hollow. We all knew that Davos wasn't dead, we know that Jon isn't dead for good and Stannis probably isn't dead at all. There are still characters who could die and probably most of them will before the end but I can't see another Ned Stark happening for quite some time.
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Aug 17, 2011 13:22
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Odrade posted:I do feel like by now Gurms insistence that nobody has plot armour is looking a bit hollow. We all knew that Davos wasn't dead, we know that Jon isn't dead for good and Stannis probably isn't dead at all. There are still characters who could die and probably most of them will before the end but I can't see another Ned Stark happening for quite some time. I want to see Jaime found unceremoniously hanging from a tree. That'd be a great "Because gently caress you, that's why" moment, and free Brienne to go do something she promised three books ago: to kill Stannis.
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Aug 17, 2011 16:01
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3Romeo posted:free Brienne to go do something she promised three books ago: to kill Stannis. Stranger things have happened. Groleo: "Your Grace, we have a lot of huge rear end ships to finally retake Westeros and put you on the Iron Throne, which was your dream since the beginning of your story arc. Looks like this book is gonna get fuckin cool. When do we leave?" Daenerys: "BUT MEEREEN-" *Groleo dies* *Daenerys is last found struggling with diarrhea in the Dothraki sea*
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Aug 17, 2011 16:23
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Paino posted:Stranger things have happened. You know, the biggest fault with Feast and Dance (more Feast) is that they're one big setup book. This was somewhat of the problem with Clash, except it also stood alone as its own story (having things that books four and five did not, such as rising action, climax, complication, and resolution). The events of Clash paid off in A Storm of Swords--so loving well, in fact, that it bought enough good will for us to sit through another 1500 pages of getting pieces in all their places. We bitch about the books a ton but we did read them, after all. Now that everyone (still living) is in a place where they can actually make something happen instead of being passive or dragged along by responsibility, I fully expect the next book to own like Storm did. And as an added bonus, the show will trim down about seventeen bloated plotlines, making what happened in the last two books into something that isn't a goddamned mire.
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Aug 17, 2011 16:53
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I think book 5 gives Davos a better chance of fulfilling the Azor Ahai prophecy, since Skagos means "stone"
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Aug 17, 2011 16:58
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3Romeo posted:You know, the biggest fault with Feast and Dance (more Feast) is that they're one big setup book. This was somewhat of the problem with Clash, except it also stood alone as its own story (having things that books four and five did not, such as rising action, climax, complication, and resolution). The events of Clash paid off in A Storm of Swords--so loving well, in fact, that it bought enough good will for us to sit through another 1500 pages of getting pieces in all their places. We bitch about the books a ton but we did read them, after all. I feel very similar. Clash was still a page turner for me, especially the Tyrion chapters. When people were moving from one location to the other, they actually did stuff. And they also came past locations that we had seen before and other major characters just had passed. Winds has everything needed to make it next to non-stop action: the south in a full scale war/invasion, Mereen under siege, with Dany and her dragons and the Dothraki to the rescue, Tyrion and Victarion as wild cards on the outside, the vanguard of the Others could arrive at the Wall, Stannis versus Bolton, Littlefinger/Sansa putting the Vale into action. As has been mentioned before, the books will have a bittersweet ending. Major characters will probably die, and I don't expect them to do so in a glorious sacrifice to save the world.
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Aug 17, 2011 17:01
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Pucklynn posted:I love that one of the selling points I've used to recommend this series to other is that you should never get attached to any one character because he [GRRM] will kill anyone and everyone you love. They killed Kevan man. I loving loved that guy.
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Aug 17, 2011 18:45
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Davincie posted:They killed Kevan man. I loving loved that guy. It seems you haven't been introduced to Ser Humphrey Strong, brother to Robert. furushotakeru fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Aug 17, 2011 |
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Aug 17, 2011 18:53
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Ser Pounce is the greatest knight in all the land. I am shocked that Tommen didn't name him to the Kingsguard.
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Aug 17, 2011 18:59
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Remember with Clash you were only just completely hooked into the world and everything seemed fresh. I would bet that if its plot was more like AFFC/ADWD you would be expressing similar sentiments.
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Aug 17, 2011 19:08
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Lenin Stimpy posted:I think book 5 gives Davos a better chance of fulfilling the Azor Ahai prophecy, since Skagos means "stone" I will forgive GRRM for almost anything, up to and including the death of Kevan, if Dany, Jon and Aegon turn out to be mostly irrelevant and Davos ends up sitting the Iron Throne as King Azor Azai.
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Aug 17, 2011 20:33
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OperaMouse posted:I feel very similar. Clash was still a page turner for me, especially the Tyrion chapters. When people were moving from one location to the other, they actually did stuff. And they also came past locations that we had seen before and other major characters just had passed. Yeah I re-read Clash recently and enjoyed it much more the second time around. Tyrion swaggering around King's Landing owning Janos Slynt, Pycelle, Cersei and even Littlefinger (briefly) was awesome and one of the things I'm most looking forward to in the next season of the show (also shadowbabies). Unfortunately things kind of go downhill for Tyrion after that point what with the whole getting his nose cut off, being sentenced to death and then spending a whole book wondering where whores go and hanging out with a girl dwarf and her pet pig. 
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Aug 17, 2011 20:37
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JerkyBunion posted:Ser Pounce is the greatest knight in all the land. I am shocked that Tommen didn't name him to the Kingsguard. Ser Pounce needs his own spin-off.
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Aug 17, 2011 20:51
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JerkyBunion posted:Ser Pounce is the greatest knight in all the land. I am shocked that Tommen didn't name him to the Kingsguard.
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Aug 17, 2011 20:57
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I just finished the book finally. Overall, it was better than Feast. But there were issues. I was one of those people that enjoyed Dany and her chapters in the other books. Well, George managed to make me hate her by the end of Dance. Thanks, dude. I don't give two shits about Meereen and wish it would burn to the ground. And Dany's last chapter was really meh. Regarding Jon, its a lovely way to end his part in the book. Of course he's not dead in any final sense. So having it be a cliffhanger was dumb. I don't think he's even going to have anything supernatural about him that prevents death. I just think he was stabbed in a few non-vital areas and will survive normally. This series needs a big OH poo poo death like Ned's because I am feeling like the big players cannot be killed(Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Arya, Bran). They should have slit his throat or cut off his head. And I think it was pretty obvious that somethng bad was going to happen to him a)due to Ghost acting weird and b)all his actions pissing off half the Watch. The Winterfell battle was completely blueballed in more ways than one. gently caress Gurm for building this thing up for the entire novel, only to either leave it out completely or holding it til the next book. I'm curious what people think of The Letter. Is it stating all fact? Or did that fat(and awesome) Lord Manderly meet Stanis, team up, and send a letter to Ramsay with false info? Because, if Ramsay did beat Stanis, he'd have "Arya" and Reek but he doesn't. The Arya and Theon chapters were really good, although I wish there were more Arya chapters. Bran's were good as well but still not learning more about Coldhands was a bummer. Tyrion's chapters were ok but not up to the usual awesome levels. I really wanted him to get to Dany. More blueballs on that. The epilogue with Kevan and Varys was a little strange. Cersei seemed to be acting oddly subdued. And did anyone else get a crazy vide off Varys? I never thought of him as particularly weird but I got full on crazy vibes with his little speech about protecting the children. For a second there, I was thinking he was working for the Childred of the forest, to bring them back, not little kids. But then, maybe he really wants to protect children because he himself had a hosed up childhood. I dunno, he just seemed to cross a line from mysterious manipulator to creepy, crazy killer.
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Aug 17, 2011 21:32
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Kung Fu Jesus posted:The epilogue with Kevan and Varys was a little strange. Cersei seemed to be acting oddly subdued. And did anyone else get a crazy vide off Varys? I never thought of him as particularly weird but I got full on crazy vibes with his little speech about protecting the children. For a second there, I was thinking he was working for the Childred of the forest, to bring them back, not little kids. But then, maybe he really wants to protect children because he himself had a hosed up childhood. I dunno, he just seemed to cross a line from mysterious manipulator to creepy, crazy killer. I actually thought the epilogue was one of the best chapters of the book. Crazy killers murder without reason. Varys had a very clear reason. Kevan was getting the kingdom back on track and being an all-around cool dude. By eliminating him he gives Cersei or someone equally as bad a chance to grab the reigns and really drive the kingdom into the ground.
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Aug 17, 2011 21:57
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I want Robert Strong to be a reference to Schwartzenegger's old stage name Arnold Strong. Did anyone notice that Varys' voice "seemed to become deeper" as he was monologuing to Kevan? GRRM seldom adds details like this without a reason. Is this a hint that the whole eunuch thing is just an angle? Why not, really? The point of Varys is that he's a mummer, not that he's a magic-hating eunuch. In fact, since he is pro-Targ I would guess that the magic-hating is just a schtick. Varys may have initially portrayed himself as a eunuch to get in good with the crazy Aerys. If the eunuch thing is an act, that makes Varys the most disciplined game-player by far. Though I just recalled that Littlefinger is also allegedly celibate.
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Aug 17, 2011 22:14
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Can anyone do a little passage finding for me. I'm trying to remember the story that Varys tells of his experience with magic. It seemed like his story did not sync up with the one that Ilyrio tells about him. He talks about hearing a deep voice and seeing a blue flame, I think.
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Aug 17, 2011 22:57
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oogyboogs posted:Can anyone do a little passage finding for me. I'm trying to remember the story that Varys tells of his experience with magic. It seemed like his story did not sync up with the one that Ilyrio tells about him. He talks about hearing a deep voice and seeing a blue flame, I think. A Clash of Kings, Chapter 44 posted:"One day at Myr, a certain man came to our folly. After the performance, he made an offer for me that my master found too tempting to refuse. I was in terror. I feared the man meant to use me as I had heard men used small boys, but in truth the only part of me he had need of was my manhood. He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a long hooked blade, he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke. I don't have ADwD handy so I can't compare it directly, but from what I recall Illyrio's story would have taken place after this, once Varys had become a thief.
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Aug 17, 2011 23:15
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Hey, so a guy on the Daily Show gave me an idea of how we can get Winds of Winter out faster: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-august-16-2011/borders-goes-out-of-business?xrs=share_copy skip to about 2:20
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Aug 17, 2011 23:50
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Calef posted:I want Robert Strong to be a reference to Schwartzenegger's old stage name Arnold Strong.
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Aug 17, 2011 23:51
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rattrap17 posted:I actually thought the epilogue was one of the best chapters of the book. Oh I enjoyed the last chapter. To me, it just had an odd tone, from Cersei's toned down demeanor to Varys getting his hands dirty to the killer children.
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Aug 18, 2011 00:23
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rattrap17 posted:I actually thought the epilogue was one of the best chapters of the book. Crazy killers murder without reason. Varys had a very clear reason. Kevan was getting the kingdom back on track and being an all-around cool dude. By eliminating him he gives Cersei or someone equally as bad a chance to grab the reigns and really drive the kingdom into the ground. I've got a problem with Varys' plan to restore the kingdom. He kills a person who is bringing peace to the kingdom in order to give it to a teenage girl from a line riddled with madness. He is fighting against his own professed interest in the well-begin of the people by killing Kevan. He has never met Dany and any reports he is getting from spies in Essos would be of how lovely a ruler Dany is. Basically, wtf Varys?
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Aug 18, 2011 01:16
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colonel_korn posted:I don't have ADwD handy so I can't compare it directly, but from what I recall Illyrio's story would have taken place after this, once Varys had become a thief. Appreciate it dog. I remembered it wrong. Here's what Ilyrio says: "In Myr he was a prince of thieves, until a rival thief informed on him. In Pentos his accent marked him, and once he was known for a eunuch he was despised and beaten." and "Instead our mice stole letters, ledgers, charts … later, they would read them and leave them where they lay. Secrets are worth more than silver or sapphires, Varys claimed." I was dead wrong. I appreciate you posting the excerpt.
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Aug 18, 2011 01:47
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Unoriginal Name posted:I've got a problem with Varys' plan to restore the kingdom. He kills a person who is bringing peace to the kingdom in order to give it to a teenage girl from a line riddled with madness. He is fighting against his own professed interest in the well-begin of the people by killing Kevan. He has never met Dany and any reports he is getting from spies in Essos would be of how lovely a ruler Dany is.
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Aug 18, 2011 02:05
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Unoriginal Name posted:Basically, wtf Varys?
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Aug 18, 2011 02:13
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