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Actually, Xande is the founding emperor of Allag. Given Allag was Emet's baby, that all but confirms Original Xande as Emet.
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Apr 30, 2021 06:37
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It doesn't at all. Emet was involved, but in no way does anything confirm he was the first emperor. The first empire was also marked by centuries of peace and absolute prosperity, which doesn't really line up with any of his plans. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Apr 30, 2021 |
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Apr 30, 2021 06:39
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Sure it does, you've gotta build up an empire to knock it down. Plus, he did do basically the same thing with both Allag and Garlemald: invade and conquer most of the world, and then get stuck on one continent. Main difference was that with Garlemald, there were already Calamity-causers lying around; with Allag it was necessary to build some in the first place. I'd like to hear what other role you think Emet took to consider Allag his big project. We know he likes empire-building AS the founding emperor, so where was he when building Allag if not on the throne first? EDIT: Also, we know Allag wasn't peaceful in Xande's first reign, because he failed at conquering Meracydia; can't fail at an invasion without trying in the first place. Remember that most of what we know about Allag comes from Allagan sources/remnants itself, while Garlemald we mostly know from active opposition. So cast some serious doubt on the assumption that Allag started off in a peaceful, prosperous golden age, because it's Allag telling you that. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Apr 30, 2021 |
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Apr 30, 2021 07:11
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Emet-Selch wasn't Xande because Xande was Xande.
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Apr 30, 2021 07:13
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Rand Brittain posted:Emet-Selch wasn't Xande because Xande was Xande. solus zos galvus was a person with his own thoughts and opinions before emet hopped inside him and made him an emperor. one presumes the same holds for any potential puppets in allag
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Apr 30, 2021 07:15
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Xande the first, who only conquered Eorzea, credited his success to gathering the top scientific and magical minds in the world. Emet-Selch could have been any of those people. Xande then groomed and prepared competent heirs and descendants that would go forward after his death to conquer the rest of Ilsabard and Othard, which they did. Emet-Selch could have been any of them. After everything was conquered, the leading Allagans began to work on the Crystal Tower, which was only conceived after Xande’s death. Emet-Selch again could have been any of them. When Xande died, his soul was interred in a special crystal tomb because even then they wanted to revive him. They used that same soul when they revived Xande 2, which can’t be Emet-Selch. All we know is Emet-Selch founded one empire, and was involved in another. It’s also easy to extrapolate to his involvement in other eras, which didn’t have empires of note. Mhach for example is easy to presume Ascian involvement, but even the lead character there was Shatotto, and void magic was a footnote near the end of their time. Cleretic posted:EDIT: Also, we know Allag wasn't peaceful in Xande's first reign, because he failed at conquering Meracydia; can't fail at an invasion without trying in the first place. Remember that most of what we know about Allag comes from Allagan sources/remnants itself, while Garlemald we mostly know from active opposition. So cast some serious doubt on the assumption that Allag started off in a peaceful, prosperous golden age, because it's Allag telling you that. He failed in conquering Meracydia because he didn't even try. Xande's sights were on Eorzea, and his descendants took the rest of the continents. Meraydia wasn't until Amon and Xande 2. But after Aldenard, Ilsabard, and Othard were part of the empire, they had centuries of peace and growth. This is all basically straight from Encyclopedia Eorzea. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Apr 30, 2021 |
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Apr 30, 2021 07:24
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I suspect Emet might have been "playing it straight" with Allag to a greater extent than he ever has with Garlemald. He actually might have been trying to help them, and was perhaps hoping that they'd prove him wrong as we eventually did. Facilitating peace and prosperity just means you have more incarnate souls you can blast at once!
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Apr 30, 2021 12:00
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Nessus posted:I suspect Emet might have been "playing it straight" with Allag to a greater extent than he ever has with Garlemald. He actually might have been trying to help them, and was perhaps hoping that they'd prove him wrong as we eventually did. Facilitating peace and prosperity just means you have more incarnate souls you can blast at once! It was the Ascians that taught the dragons to summon Bahamut after the Allagans killed him, it seems like exactly the same playbook as the Garlean empire was used for: agressive & expansionist empire antagonises the world and backs indigenous peoples into corners > ascians 'helpfully' teach them to fight back with primals > profit
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Apr 30, 2021 12:10
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The meracydian invasion and Bahamut was around 1000 years into Allag’s history, with much of it peaceful and prosperous. Garlemald rose and blew up in less than a single lifetime. Pretty different playbooks looking at that alone.
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Apr 30, 2021 15:34
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I'm the braver person so my theory is that literally every single person that's ever been alive after Hydaelyn did the big splitty is Emet-Selch. Everyone is Emet-Selch.
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May 1, 2021 11:02
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https://twitter.com/MarbleCantus/status/1388690570420400130
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May 2, 2021 04:30
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NachtSieger posted:I'm the braver person so my theory is that literally every single person that's ever been alive after Hydaelyn did the big splitty is Emet-Selch. Everyone is Emet-Selch.
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May 2, 2021 07:13
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Are... we Emet-Selch?
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May 2, 2021 07:16
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Finally, everyone hates Emet-Selch as much as I do.
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May 2, 2021 08:29
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I knew you were Emet-Selch all along but I didn't expect it to come out like this.
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May 2, 2021 08:45
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You'd think that me being Emet-Selch would make me hate him but instead it just makes me love myself. 
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May 2, 2021 08:48
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yeah sorry kid but we all love Emet Selch https://twitter.com/zucchini_loaf/status/1388751492782252039?s=20
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May 2, 2021 17:27
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Nessus posted:Even the lady with the undercut? ALL of the ladies with the undercut?? Yes. SirSamVimes posted:Are... we Emet-Selch? Yes but we're also Azem. It's very complicated. Cleretic posted:Finally, everyone hates Emet-Selch as much as I do. Emet-Selch is a very cool villain, unlike you, who is a regular human being and not one part of an immortal sad boomer ghost wizard.
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May 3, 2021 04:46
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My writing up stuff on Pandaemonium reminded me of something largely unrelated that's been kicking around my mind over time. It's going to require ignoring the 'but that can't happen' reflex for a bit, but bear with me: Remember how Shinryu was summoned solely out of a desire for the Empire to get hosed up really hard by Ilberd and his sympathizers? Shinryu was essentially a primal born of pure will to see it all burn, so it was extra tragic to see Zenos capture and then possess it with relatively little trouble. But... consider everything Zenos has done since possessing Shinryu. He went on the warpath to get his body back, sure, but after that? Killed the Emperor, then claimed the throne essentially just so that nobody else could. Let the war of succession bring the Empire to ruins. Give Legions across the star opportunity to break off and do whatever they wanted. And finally, dismantle and repurpose the entire Imperial Palace itself. Why? Why lay waste to the entire Empire if he truly doesn't care about it? That's far too big a series of actions for an 'eh, whatever'. He's going along with Fandaniel's plan to murder the planet, sure, but even before they'd met he was already happy to let the fires spread. Zenos isn't a man with very intricate reasons for what he does, but even despite that, it doesn't make any sense. ...unless he was tempered, by a primal who was born out of one singular desire: to destroy the Empire. Sure, we can say that the Resonance should have protected him from that, but we know that a sufficiently powerful primal can surpass that kind of strength--look at the Ascians, still tempered by Zodiark despite undeniably having some kind of Echo. And Zenos has been closer to a primal than anybody else in known existence save Elidibus: he was inside the heart of one. If anyone could get tempered through the Echo, it's probably Zenos.
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May 3, 2021 15:45
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It's an interesting enough premise, but Shinryu's purpose was to destroy Eorzea as much as Ala Mhigo and the Empire, which doesn't really reflect that. I'd lean it's more the work of his original MO. Breed as much chaos and suffering as possible, so that the strongest opponent possible will rise to the top. Although I'm not doubting that some other motivation will come to play here.
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May 3, 2021 15:51
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Cleretic posted:My writing up stuff on Pandaemonium reminded me of something largely unrelated that's been kicking around my mind over time. It's going to require ignoring the 'but that can't happen' reflex for a bit, but bear with me: Zenos only has one singular goal, and that's to play Rock'em Sock'Em Murderhobos with the WoL. Everything he does is in service to that goal, and he literally does not care about anything else. He killed the Emperor because the Emperor was going to use Black Rose, which would have robbed him of that fight. He's letting the Empire burn because it has nothing to do with fighting the WoL and therefore he gives no fucks about it. He's letting OnlyFansdaniel do his thing specifically because he was promised that it would be the best way to have the WoL show up with guns blazing and ready to go. He's not tempered, he just has Savage-tier tunnel vision.
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May 3, 2021 15:54
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I think we're led to believe Zenos doesn't want anything, at all, ever, other than loot and dope boss fights. So, to that end, if destroying the Empire is an effective means to fighting Zodiark or Hydaelyn (or the WoL who is the Ash Ketchum to his Gary Oak) he is more than willing to burn down the Empire or whatever, especially if Fandaniel gave him the inside track information on getting to Zodiark/Hydaelyn necessitating as such. Zenos being tempered is an interesting theory but I think the writers would do themselves a disservice if they lean more on all the major characters being tempered in Eorzea. When Emet-Selch says he's probably tempered, it wasn't as big a deal as it should have been because, ya know, what's the difference? Frankly it would make the character less meaningful/impactful. I think they're trying to kinda hype up Zenos/WoL as the Real Showdown above all of the plot elements surrounding them all. It's pretty standard in JRPGs for the world-ending scenario to be just framing for a simple story of two people having a basic conflict. Like big robots and machines or wars fighting themselves in the background while a volcano explodes and one guy goes "why did you betray mom????" and the other one is like "because she always loved you more and I hate you for it! I'll never be able to let it go!!" or something stupid. Oh! Like the ending of Revenge of the Sith! Or the ending of FFXV: Kingsglaive which is... an okay movie I guess. e: In FF14 I figure Zenos as a character is directly trying to point out that there's not much of a reason to care about anyone else if they're both essentially the most powerful beings in existence, while WoL's escapades form the basis for making the WoL the foil to that reasoning. When the WoL defeats Zenos, maybe the WoL is going to realize that gently caress maybe Zenos was right and they lose their entire raison d'etre when they beat the big bad and don't have any crisis to solve or big bad enemy/empire to defeat. What happens when there's noone else to fight? The worst outcome for Zenos is to win with no prospect of a new fight on the horizon. He'd probably kill himself. He doesn't really have a happy ending available to him, unless he wants to lose. Maybe the WoL is the same. jokes fucked around with this message at 16:17 on May 3, 2021 |
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May 3, 2021 15:57
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I think the Tempering that the Ascians went through is probably different from the one that we understand and have seen in-game. Consider: The Ascians invented Primal summoning. Even having been tempered, they clearly have more autonomy. Yes, they're compelled to "save the star" because that's what Big Z was summoned for, but they're able to be a lot more flexible in what that means. It's how they were able to continuously almost destroy the planet in order to "save" it. They're still compelled, but they haven't lost their ability to reason like people who get Tempered now do. Which makes sense, since the Ascians are the ones who taught the Beast Tribes how to summon in the first place, and probably omitted a few steps in order to make sure the requisite amount of poo poo was stirred up as a consequence. Lahabrea posted:We trained them wrong, on purpose. As a joke.
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May 3, 2021 16:12
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jokes posted:I think we're led to believe Zenos doesn't want anything, at all, ever, other than loot and dope boss fights. So, to that end, if destroying the Empire is an effective means to fighting Zodiark or Hydaelyn (or the WoL who is the Ash Ketchum to his Gary Oak) he is more than willing to burn down the Empire or whatever, especially if Fandaniel gave him the inside track information on getting to Zodiark/Hydaelyn necessitating as such. No chance of that. There will always be people in need of help- and helping those people is our purpose, not big fights. It just so happens that we're capable of helping deal with really, really big and violent problems so we spend a lot of time on that. The WoL would be fine in a peaceful world.
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May 3, 2021 17:04
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Honestly, that's probably right. It just seems like as MMOs continue on they keep on necessitating a ~Greater Conflict !!!!!~ but Azem/WoL was more than happy helping dudes pick berries or whatever (Fray storyline notwithstanding)
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May 3, 2021 17:15
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Tempering Zenos feels like it goes against what's been established but I don't think it'd be impossible for said possession to have affected Zenos in some manner.
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May 3, 2021 17:26
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I think robbing the main antagonist of what makes him unique and a legitimate threat and gives him any reason or agency in the plot to say 'Haha tricked you hes actually controlled by the one primal with 0 personality' would suck.
ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 18:16 on May 3, 2021 |
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May 3, 2021 18:13
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:I think robbing the main antagonist of what makes him unique and a legitimate threat and gives him any reason or agency in the plot to say 'Haha tricked you hes actually controlled by the one primal with 0 personality' would suck. He sucks as it is, so nothing of value would be lost.
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May 3, 2021 18:29
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Cythereal posted:He sucks as it is, so nothing of value would be lost. Aren't you also the person that spent years crying the same poo poo about alphinaud?
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May 3, 2021 18:32
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Aren't you also the person that spent years crying the same poo poo about alphinaud? They did something interesting with him eventually, yes (the big thing, making him just one part of an ensemble cast rather than the protagonist of the game). They have not done anything interesting yet with Zenos.
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May 3, 2021 18:39
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Zenos is a horribly boring nonfigure that tempering her would be a lateral move. There's nothing to him. He's a big dumb force of nature. There's not a single interesting thing to him and it's really the expansions achilles heel if he's the driving force because I just don't care. I want to stop him, only because he feels like a writer's pet and the only satisfying way to defeat him would be in the first cutscene just obliterate him, dump him in the trash, and move on.
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May 3, 2021 18:53
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Zeros is fun when he's not bored but the writers keep making him be bored so I'm more convinced that they don't know how to use him
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May 3, 2021 18:55
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It has been a real long time since a bug gently caress crazy 'the wisdom to commit violence for its own end' speech, starting to wonder if our boy still has it in him 
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May 3, 2021 18:59
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multijoe posted:It has been a real long time since a bug gently caress crazy 'the wisdom to commit violence for its own end' speech, starting to wonder if our boy still has it in him He needs to take lessons from Azariah Kyras. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbmDLVFAaec
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May 3, 2021 19:05
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multijoe posted:It has been a real long time since a bug gently caress crazy 'the wisdom to commit violence for its own end' speech, starting to wonder if our boy still has it in him I believe in my truly insane bestie
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May 3, 2021 19:27
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Zenos is great. Nobody better be hatin' on Zenos.
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May 3, 2021 19:54
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Zodiac5000 posted:Zenos is great. Nobody better be hatin' on Zenos. Oh I'm hating. I'm hating so much.
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May 3, 2021 19:56
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Zodiac5000 posted:Zenos is great. Nobody better be hatin' on Zenos. Sometimes, just sometimes, you need a villain who isn't misguided. Sometimes you need someone who isn't the hero of their own story. Sometimes, every now and again, you need someone who is a total maniac. And Zenos is our maniac.
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May 3, 2021 20:54
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I miss when Zenos was going full Luca Blight. Hopefully we'll get more of that Zenos in Endwalker.
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May 3, 2021 21:01
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Gearhead posted:Sometimes, just sometimes, you need a villain who isn't misguided. Sometimes you need someone who isn't the hero of their own story. Then he needs to eat the loving scenery like the best Heels. Currently Onlyfansdaniel is the one doing that and I'd rather have him for the rest of the expansion than Zenos.
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May 3, 2021 21:18
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