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https://twitter.com/joedyke/status/879424313434177536 meanwhile as y'all are arguing about a loving flag
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Jun 26, 2017 21:07
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To be fair that flag argument is going to give a poo poo ton of ammo to the pinkwashers and whether they were there to argue for zionism or not is going to hurt a lot of support.
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Jun 26, 2017 21:11
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Ytlaya posted:Honest question - what exactly would you propose as an alternative? If I were LGBT and wanted to make a flag/banner indicating both LGBT and Jewish pride, a Star of David on a rainbow background is kind of the most obvious choice. There aren't many other symbols that are generally recognized by the public as being Jewish. A rainbow hamsa?
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Jun 27, 2017 00:10
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Lightning Lord posted:A rainbow hamsa? Would be pretty baller. It's not explicitly Jewish tho.
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Jun 27, 2017 00:39
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Lightning Lord posted:A rainbow hamsa? A menorah, and each flame is a different color of the rainbow  The point is moot though, there shouldn't be "acceptable"/"unacceptable" religious or identity expression, that gets burqas banned.
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Jun 27, 2017 01:56
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https://twitter.com/AFilan/status/879429193074970624 https://twitter.com/YousefMunayyer/status/879430546929184768 
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Jun 27, 2017 02:39
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Sorry jewailures, trying having darker skin color if you want to be considered a real minority group next time.
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Jun 27, 2017 04:01
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MaxxBot posted:Sorry jewailures, trying having darker skin color if you want to be considered a real minority group next time. Israel was too busy trying to sterilize those jews.
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Jun 27, 2017 05:01
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Oh this argument again.
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Jun 27, 2017 07:03
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Oh, hey, there's a goon that actually knows more about that Chicago Dyke March incident and aftermath:Eponine posted:Chicago Dyke March asked my friend, a queer, non-Zionist Jew, to leave yesterday because her rainbow flag had a Magen Star of David on it. Please note: it was not an Israeli flag. It was a flag that is recognized as an LGBT-Jewish pride flag. The organizers made her leave in tears, then have made accusations that she has connections to Zionist movements (she does not) and are refusing to comment or apologize on the situation. More posts in that thread.
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Jun 27, 2017 12:55
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Oh, hey, there's a goon that actually knows more about that Chicago Dyke March incident and aftermath: Rather than relying on secondhand accounts, I suggest reading what the woman in question had to say in her own words. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=187012131831478&id=100015680762441 I doubt this will change anyone's mind, but she at the very least admits that no one was expelled on the basis of either a Jewish identity or publicly expressing it.
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Jun 27, 2017 17:27
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Barry Convex posted:Rather than relying on secondhand accounts, I suggest reading what the woman in question had to say in her own words. Huh? Did you actually read it? The Post You Just Linked posted:I was thrown out of Dyke March for being Jewish. And yes, there were other Jews there, visible ones even, who weren't accosted, who had fun, even! And yes, Israel exists in a complicated way. But in this case, it doesn't matter what Israel does or doesn't do. This was about being Jewish in public, and I was thrown out for being Jewish, for being the "wrong" kind of Jew, the kind of Jew who shows up with a big Jewish star on a flag. No matter how much I tried to avoid conflict, to explain. Oh, maybe there was a way I could have stayed, but rolling up my beautiful proud flag for them would have been an even bigger loss.
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Jun 27, 2017 17:30
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Squashing Machine posted:Huh? Did you actually read it? I assure you, I've read it many, many times, particularly this sentence in the very paragraph you quoted. quote:And yes, there were other Jews there, visible ones even, who weren't accosted, who had fun, even! Literally no one who was actually at the Dyke March has claimed that Jews were confronted or expelled on any basis other than the rainbow Magen David flags in question. Otra admits that she could have chosen a different form of expression that wouldn't have antagonized others, but insists that her Judaism gives her the right to express her identity however she wants regardless of how others in marginalized groups respond to it. Which I suppose is not terribly surprising, since that's a common enough reactionary response to this form of intersectional leftism, but I'm not going to pretend that there's anything progressive about it. Barry Convex fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Jun 27, 2017 |
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Jun 27, 2017 17:38
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Barry Convex posted:I assure you, I've read it many, many times, particularly this sentence in the very paragraph you quoted. So anyone who feels threatened by a symbol, religious or otherwise, has the immutable right to silence and kick out the person bearing that symbol? Should other attendees have had the right to kick out those whose flags depicted the star and crescent, for the anti-LGBT behaviors of the countries whose flags bear it? Is it okay to be a Jew at a Pride event as long as you keep that poo poo to yourself and stay away from the religion's most recognizable symbol? Squashing Machine fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Jun 27, 2017 |
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Jun 27, 2017 17:52
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Its okay, you won't be kicked out for being Jewish if they don't know you're Jewish!
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Jun 27, 2017 17:55
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My view is probably that A) The Star of David is, has become, the symbol of the Jewish religion. That it acquired such monopoly status is undeniably linked to the twin phenomena of the holocaust and the zionist movement. I really don't think that it's going anywhere. I also think that trying to drum that symbol out of public and political life is both i) not going to work and ii) disproportionate given the widespread prevalence of equally or much more offensive symbols in public life. B) There are forms of criticism or dislike of Israel that are anti semitic and that is the inescapable reality of Israel as an ethno-state, a state that enshrines the Jewish religion, and its status as a last refuge of the diaspora. In any event, this particular person was, from her perspective - I think the one that really matters - thrown out of an event for being Jewish. I really don't think it is enough to say that people find that symbol, decontextualized, unsafe. Jewishness, and even Israeli citizenship, are highly complex and precarious forms of identity. C) The attitude adopted to problems like this stinks of the suggestion that the left doesn't do antisemitism, which is risible both if you've ever been on a march against Israel or have ever touched a history book. It speaks to me of a very guilty conscience and I think it's the underlying issue being litigated whenever people talk about these issues. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Jun 27, 2017 |
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Jun 27, 2017 18:02
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Disinterested posted:I really don't think it is enough to say that people find that symbol, decontextualized, unsafe. I would agree if I agreed with your definition of "decontextualized." If this were about banning the Magen David in the context of T-shirts, kippot, jewelry, signs, banners, literally anything except a flag resembling the Israeli one, I would be strongly against it and would absolutely see that as anti-Semitic. But my opinion is that the flag in question resembles the Israeli flag enough that it is not reasonable to expect, let alone demand, that others see it purely as an anodyne expression of Jewish and LGBTQ identity that says absolutely nothing about Israel or Zionism. Also, at least one of the flags (possibly Otra's own, since she says she was wearing a "Proud Jewish Dyke" shirt) clearly has a blue Magen David superimposed over the rainbow, which makes that demand even more unreasonable. 
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Jun 27, 2017 18:17
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it doesn't look like the goddamn israeli flag 
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Jun 27, 2017 18:21
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Are we really going to litigate this on the basis of whether the thing is blue.
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Jun 27, 2017 18:28
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Maybe, if you see something that bears a passing resemblance to something you don't like, you shouldn't throw a public tantrum about it and get your entire activist event dragged through the mud for failing to live up to its own standards of inclusivity.
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Jun 27, 2017 18:31
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Disinterested posted:Are we really going to litigate this on the basis of whether the thing is blue. This argument is pretty much about whether it's reasonable, if not outright bigoted, to read the flag as a variation on the Israeli flag. So yes, I'd say a detail not in most of the news stories (which mostly used illustrative photos of white Magen Davids on rainbow flags, taken at other Jewish LGBTQ events as opposed to the Dyke March), which significantly increases the flag's resemblance to the actual Israeli one, is extremely relevant.
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Jun 27, 2017 18:53
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Even if you grant the argument that the flag has a strong relationship to the Israeli flag (and even if you grant the argument that there's a higher-than-average than that the people using such a flag are Zionist!), barring it from a march like this still doesn't work just from looking at the pros and cons. Basically the downsides (effectively banning some people from the march for being Jewish) are waaay higher than the upsides (somehow possibly linking the flag to the Israeli flag). The only situation where I might be more sympathetic to the other side of this argument (and even then it's a stretch) is one where the sorta-kinda-Israeli imagery was particularly prominent in the march, but in this case it seems it was only a few marchers in the context of a larger event. edit: As a vehemently anti-Israel Jewish person myself, some degree of antisemitism definitely exists in the anti-Israel left, even if I broadly agree with their overall positions regarding Israel. I generally feel the need to accompany revealing I'm Jewish with some defensive statements about not being Zionist, and I get the feeling that many anti-Zionists are sort of looking for an excuse to get particularly mad at Zionist Jews. Put another way, it seems like some of these people get more angry at Jews being Zionist than non-Jews being Zionist. Obviously this isn't remotely a defense of Israel itself, but it's something I think anti-Zionists in general should be aware of and attempt to monitor within the movement. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Jun 27, 2017 |
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Jun 27, 2017 19:00
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There's a flag that's literally the Israeli flag with the blue replaced with rainbow colors. If you want gay pride + awful nationalism, there's already a flag for that.
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Jun 27, 2017 19:08
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Barry Convex posted:This argument is pretty much about whether it's reasonable, if not outright bigoted, to read the flag as a variation on the Israeli flag. So yes, I'd say a detail not in most of the news stories (which mostly used illustrative photos of white Magen Davids on rainbow flags, taken at other Jewish LGBTQ events as opposed to the Dyke March), which significantly increases the flag's resemblance to the actual Israeli one, is extremely relevant. The implication that Israeli's are all right wing nationalist Jews, even ones standing there with a loving rainbow flag, is extremely bigoted. Even if they had the Israeli flag in one hand and the rainbow flag in the other, it takes a very large leap of bigoted imagination to just assume this is some Israeli Zionist. People at these rallies in Israel get loving stabbed by orthodox Jews. Clearly nobody bothered to listen to what the person had to say though.
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Jun 27, 2017 19:08
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I maintain that "is there still a place for Zionism under the broader tent of intersectional leftism?" is the debate we should actually be having post-Dyke March, not "was this specific anti-Zionist decision also anti-Semitic?" Because the evidence for the latter is extremely unpersuasive. Just to reiterate: I absolutely agree that anti-Semitism does exist on the anti-Zionist left, that it is unquestionably anti-Semitic to conflate Jewish identity with support for Israel, and that this should be called out and condemned whenever this happens. I simply don't agree that that's what happened here.
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Jun 27, 2017 19:25
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Nebalebadingdong posted:There's a flag that's literally the Israeli flag with the blue replaced with rainbow colors. If you want gay pride + awful nationalism, there's already a flag for that. Your insistent pedantry everyone is ignoring really contributes to the discussion 
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Jun 27, 2017 19:34
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Autism Sneaks posted:Your insistent pedantry everyone is ignoring really contributes to the discussion Well shucks, fella, I'm real sorry I responded to an actual discussion about what the flag looks like. And while I agree with Barry Convex about the importance of fighting nationalism, the march banned a flag for having the star of david stamped on it. Instead of being a snide bastard, how about YOU respond with something meaningful
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Jun 27, 2017 19:46
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Barry Convex posted:I maintain that "is there still a place for Zionism under the broader tent of intersectional leftism?" is the debate we should actually be having post-Dyke March, not "was this specific anti-Zionist decision also anti-Semitic?" Because the evidence for the latter is extremely unpersuasive. You maintain that, but it seems fairly obvious that you are doing so to legitimize this activity ex post facto by leaving it assumed that Jewish symbolism must be regulated by Gentiles for signs of potential Zionism.
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Jun 27, 2017 19:48
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I think it's great that instead of having a few guys at the end of the protest kind of feeling maybe a little pissed off because this jerk triggered them by displaying a star of david in the center of a flag you now have a story making the rounds through the right wing media about how jews are being expelled from parades which once again shows how the "radical left" is antisemitic and so on and so forth. Really. Great.
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Jun 27, 2017 19:49
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Ytlaya posted:Even if you grant the argument that the flag has a strong relationship to the Israeli flag (and even if you grant the argument that there's a higher-than-average than that the people using such a flag are Zionist!), barring it from a march like this still doesn't work just from looking at the pros and cons. Basically the downsides (effectively banning some people from the march for being Jewish) are waaay higher than the upsides (somehow possibly linking the flag to the Israeli flag). As a fellow non-Zionist Jew, I appreciate where you're coming from, but the problem is that no one was "banned from the march for being Jewish," effectively or otherwise. Unless I've missed some reports, no one who was actually at the Dyke March has claimed that any Jew there was expelled for any reason other than choosing this specific manner of expressing their identity. Not for their Jewish identity, not for expressing their Jewish identity publicly. If one wants to argue that Jews should be able to express their identity however they want, regardless of how other marginalized groups perceive and respond that mode of expression, go right ahead. But that's very much at odds with the form of microaggression-level intersectional leftism that's become increasingly prevalent on the left, and which the Dyke March clearly practices. The most sympathetic argument I've seen from the other side is that the Dyke March's intentions were good but the optics just weren't worth it, which I think is valid, but I also think any anti-Zionist activism will get smeared as anti-Semitism regardless of what they do, so it's hard for me to care that much, personally. But perhaps that's naive of me. Pachakuti posted:You maintain that, but it seems fairly obvious that you are doing so to legitimize this activity ex post facto by leaving it assumed that Jewish symbolism must be regulated by Gentiles for signs of potential Zionism. I'm Jewish, and reportedly so were most of the people who asked the people in question at the Dyke March to leave, but okay. Barry Convex fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Jun 27, 2017 |
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Jun 27, 2017 19:50
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Should I be allowed to demand the expulsion of any person at a Pride march depicting any products of the entertainment industry, which is intimately tied into American imperial oppression? Or is this transparently nonsensical? If it is nonsensical, why is assuming a Star of David is a Zionist symbol inherently reasonable, then?
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Jun 27, 2017 19:53
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Barry Convex posted:The most sympathetic argument I've seen from the other side is that the Dyke March's intentions were good but the optics just weren't worth it, which I think is valid, but I also think any anti-Zionist activism will get smeared as anti-Semitism regardless of what they do, so it's hard for me to care that much, personally. But perhaps that's naive of me. I think this is why its important for non-Zionist Jews to keep and display Jewish symbology in contexts like this. It breaks down this narrative.
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Jun 27, 2017 19:56
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Pachakuti posted:Should I be allowed to demand the expulsion of any person at a Pride march depicting any products of the entertainment industry, which is intimately tied into American imperial oppression? Or is this transparently nonsensical? If it is nonsensical, why is assuming a Star of David is a Zionist symbol inherently reasonable, then? Right. Who gets the final say on what iconography is allowable or not allowable? Are you allowed to interrogate an organizer's or group's intentions when it privileges the comfort of one group over another's expression of self, or deems certain symbols non-grata? Is it really for the good of the Dyke March to stir up drama around Zionists and anti-Zionists at an event whose ostensible purpose has nothing to do with that?
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Jun 27, 2017 20:05
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Homosexuality is illegal in all major religions so I don't see how any religious symbols are allowed at pride events at all. The organizers want to keep out trolls from the events, and to a lot of people a flag with a religious symbol on it would represent that religion's intolerance of homosexuality.
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Jun 27, 2017 20:12
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Well, the politics of Israel and Palestinian symbols at marches like this isn't really anything to do with the stance of the related religious groups on homosexuality. It's really to do with the fact that anti-Zionism/being pro-Palestinian is a generally left wing position and that most of the people attending these marches are left wing - and more specifically, that Israel's advocates often use the relatively liberal attitude to homosexuality in Israel vs the region as a pretext for other, more pernicious activities. In any event that just reduces the scope of the event to be more and more minimally inclusive and becomes an argument that homosexuality is explicitly ideological, or contains a set of explicit values. Which is nonsensical and wrong.
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Jun 27, 2017 20:17
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qkkl posted:Homosexuality is illegal in all major religions so I don't see how any religious symbols are allowed at pride events at all. The organizers want to keep out trolls from the events, and to a lot of people a flag with a religious symbol on it would represent that religion's intolerance of homosexuality. I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here and just assume you missed the pictures of the guy that are posted above, that make this "how do we know they didn't think the guy was an orthodox conservative" argument look pretty ridiculous.
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Jun 27, 2017 20:17
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Barry Convex posted:I maintain that "is there still a place for Zionism under the broader tent of intersectional leftism?" is the debate we should actually be having post-Dyke March I think there's truth to this but it extremely depends on the scope of the definition of Zionism here. For instance: merely believing Israel has a right to exist is, from a certain perspective, Zionism. I also think VB raises an important point which is there's something to be said for not reducing Israel to just the occupation and all Israelis to occupiers. There is a cultural conflict within pretty much every identity in which one side is often deserving of solidarity. The other thing is: are Israel and Jewishness here being treated by a totally different standard to pretty much every other form of identity? I think it's hard to say they're not. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Jun 27, 2017 |
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Jun 27, 2017 20:22
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Disinterested posted:In any event that just reduces the scope of the event to be more and more minimally inclusive and becomes an argument that homosexuality is explicitly ideological, or contains a set of explicit values. Well that's just the state of the left today. Unfortunately, the discussion of this event is going to orient around the LGBT community, but it's a far broader problem than that. I remember a few years ago, there was a Palestinian guy who went to a pro-Palestinian rally in maybe London. There, he expressed support for revolutionaries in Syria, and said their fight was our fight. People booed him out of there. They threw a guy under the bus at a rally thats entire purpose was to express solidarity with him. When you combine a fundamentalist view towards liberal orthodoxy, a prevailing belief that liberals are always right about everything by definition, and overwhelming stupidity, you're going to get these sorts of grassroots sectarian movements that pop up and reflect poorly on everyone.
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Jun 27, 2017 20:35
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JVP Chicago released a statement. Not sure where Ellie Otra fits into this, since she insists she wasn't with AWB or any other pro-Israel organization, so I'm not taking this as absolute gospel, but seems relevant. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VG2cPkufLCFVSv4DmvRbOSQnzMdUt7so8AlrQHcXSyA/pub quote:On Saturday at the Chicago Dyke March, a small number of members and staff of A Wider Bridge challenged the inclusion of Palestinian human rights as an issue supported by Chicago Dyke March. A Wider Bridge has the explicit purpose of “building a movement of pro-Israel LGBTQ people and allies.” “Pro-Israel,” for a Wider Bridge, has included organizing war rallies cheering on the Israeli military during the massacre of civilians in Gaza in August 2014 and partnering with Israeli consulates in the US in organizing pinkwashing propaganda tours. Disinterested posted:I think there's truth to this but it extremely depends on the scope of the definition of Zionism here. For instance: merely believing Israel has a right to exist is, from a certain perspective, Zionism. I don't know what "from a certain perspective" is doing there as a qualifier, because any belief that Jews have a right to a state wherein they constitute the demographic and political majority is very definitely Zionism.
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Jun 27, 2017 20:40
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Barry Convex posted:I don't know what "from a certain perspective" is doing there as a qualifier, because any belief that Jews have a right to a state wherein they constitute the demographic and political majority is very definitely Zionism. Then I'm afraid Israel and Zionism are here to stay as a part of the conversation.
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Jun 27, 2017 20:43
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