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Cicadalek posted:I have a newb question. If you're starting as a conjurer or other class that has no weapon, is there a particular weapon type to look out for? obviously stuff with a good brand is best, but I don't know if a spear or dagger or hand axe is better with 0 weapon skill. I like swords for riposte or spears for reach. It's nice to have a spear for any worms you might meet so that you can kite them and kill them safely if your mp runs out. early venom brand is great if you can find one as you can poison stuff up and run away to let it die
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Feb 14, 2017 03:26
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Cicadalek posted:I have a newb question. If you're starting as a conjurer or other class that has no weapon, is there a particular weapon type to look out for? obviously stuff with a good brand is best, but I don't know if a spear or dagger or hand axe is better with 0 weapon skill. My take (a bad player's take), a dagger is the closest with 0 skill to having mindelay, so I always prefer a dagger. A spear is also useful in being able to attack over 2 spaces (like over a conjured flame).
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Feb 14, 2017 03:28
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Cicadalek posted:I have a newb question. If you're starting as a conjurer or other class that has no weapon, is there a particular weapon type to look out for? obviously stuff with a good brand is best, but I don't know if a spear or dagger or hand axe is better with 0 weapon skill. Lots of replies to this, I'll add my opinion that it usually doesn't really matter very much. If you can cast conjure flame, slow at good power, or have allies, you really want either a trident or a halberd. Otherwise, long blades or a quarterstaff might be best, but by a very small margin. Wizards can do well with getting 5 points in short blades and using a dagger to stab mephed enemies, but that's after d:4 or so when their spells are online and probably only if you haven't found any good weapons by that point.
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Feb 14, 2017 03:59
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Internet Kraken posted:I think a 7+ hydra has a good chance of munching up a DE in robes with low defensive skills trained. on my latest game(which I was actually recording for demonstration purposes but radeon relive hosed up and the recording is corrupt, agh) I had like 15+ AC, around 20 EV as DE in ring mail slightly before lair, with about 10 fighting and dodging and all my required spells castable. I got a bit lucky with aux armor but it's not been very abnormal, on a more lucky run I could get +Str equipment and wear heavier armor while still casting the same spells or just get higher enchant stuff/prot rings/etc
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Feb 14, 2017 04:08
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The answer is always brand > weapon type, and usually the smallest one you can find to make the most of the brand and avoid super slow swings. The best brands are poison, elec & draining. Daggers are by far the most common branded weapons in the early game and have the lowest base delay so you'll usually be using those. There are two exceptions, longswords and polearms; If you're not actively attacking it's worth holding the best sword you can for ripostes, and if you have conjure flame you want to swap in a polearm to poke over clouds when mp runs low.
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Feb 14, 2017 04:09
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I think enchantment matters more than brand if it's high, even earlygame. if I find a +7-9 flail I am using it on any wizard regardless of daggers of elec or venom(though of course those are more common). riposte procs infrequently enough that you shouldn't really care about it very much.
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Feb 14, 2017 04:11
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If you find a weapon with 6 or more enchantment on the floor it's probably an artifact and has a brand anyway, so even if it's just vorpal it still has some use. I'd still keep a poison dagger around though. Riposte isn't super important but if all your actions are spent casting and you don't have a staff, there isn't any downside to holding a long blade.
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Feb 14, 2017 04:15
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I always use whips until I find something with a brand. Why? Because years ago someone said they were the best weapon to use at 0 skill. I realize now I never put any actual effort into verifying if that is correctIronicDongz posted:Yeah but you have no reason to still be wearing robes with low defensive skills as DE by lair Tell that to LogicNinja 
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Feb 14, 2017 04:25
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At this point I feel fairly comfortable with pure casters, pure fightymans, and mostly-pure stabbers, but hybrids still really confuse me. I think it's sort of an artifact of the armor system being a bit...arcane. I'm never sure what armor I should be wearing at what point, what spells benefit a hybrid vs a caster, where to put skills, etc.
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Feb 14, 2017 04:36
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summons or necro and fight alongside them, spectral weapon, general utility spells, hexes. then wear the heaviest armor that still lets you cast the spells you want to cast with reasonable investment "hybrid" describes a lot of stuff and honestly I would call most stabbers and summoners who aren't going full summon meatwall hybrids
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Feb 14, 2017 04:37
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IronicDongz posted:Yeah but you have no reason to still be wearing robes with low defensive skills as DE by lair Holy poo poo, sounds like you're playing DEFE very differently to how I do it, and since I have had no success, I'm very very keen to learn and improve. Can you please detail a few things? 1. What are the spells you consider required? Is Fireball included in that list? What success percentages? 2. How do you allocate your attributes? Do you not go all INT, what attribute spread should I be looking for by XL11? 3. For this DEFE with the required spells castable with AC 15+ and EV 20, what's your skill spread, what should I be aiming for? Hope this isn't too demanding, I'm really dying to find some success with a DEFE instead of just dying...
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Feb 14, 2017 04:44
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I'm no Dongz but I can take a swing at those questions. 1. Conjure Flame, Sticky Flame and Fireball are what you want to learn from your starter spellbook. Conjure Flame for what many people have said previously, the ability to trick singular beefy things to keep walking into fire is really good for damage and is rather cheap to spam. Sticky Flame for when they are adjacent and you can kite, it cannot miss IIRC. And Fireball is your bread and butter spam skill for basically any situation that involves non-fire resistant monsters; it also cannot miss. Your success percentages on these guys are going to be worked down to 1% because you're going to be relying on them for early to the end of the midgame. All other spells are basically nice to have and are reliant on RNG to stumble upon, barring Throw Flame (it can miss and isn't a good upgrade from Flame Tongue). 2. INT is all you invest into as you are a glass cannon and you should be making your spellpower as large as possible. The counter to a low HP pool is to kill things as fast as possible.
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Feb 14, 2017 05:07
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For most races I would say go all int all the time but if you're a deep elf that wants to wear anything bigger than leather you should get some strength. See also spriggian that wants to wear anything bigger than robes.
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Feb 14, 2017 05:11
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Panic! at Nabisco posted:At this point I feel fairly comfortable with pure casters, pure fightymans, and mostly-pure stabbers, but hybrids still really confuse me. I think it's sort of an artifact of the armor system being a bit...arcane. I'm never sure what armor I should be wearing at what point, what spells benefit a hybrid vs a caster, where to put skills, etc. Hybrid is an overused term that can indicate a bunch of different character types. Often people just mean a fighter with a few spells like spectral weapon, song of slaying, regeneration, blink, etc. Those characters rarely cast anything harder than silence. Typically people mean a character that uses some combination of summoning necromancy, hexes and charms to support melee. In that case, follow IronicDongz advice, but be aware that light armor or even a robe with a good ego is perfectly fine if you have good escape and control abilities, especially if you can also cast ozo's armor. Conjuror hybrids, by which I mean characters that spend a lot of time in melee and also use conjurations, not conjurors who occasionally hit things with a weapon, are also very doable, and a lot of fun. Overall they end up a little weaker than pure casters, but more reliable. Spells that deal damage over time, like sticky flame early, or freezing cloud in the mid game are especially valuable. Olgreb's toxic radiance is a great spell for hybrids, since it deals solid damage that stays relevant into vaults. Spellforged servitor with a bolt spell, iron shot or crystal spear and tornado are your big money, end game spells. You still want to wear armor depending on your strength, but favoring armor a tier or two lighter than other characters. Again, robes are fine throughout the whole game, especially if you have ozo's, good dex and a good dodging aptitude. One of my favorite builds that I've never really seen other people do is a DE hybrid with a bow. This way you play as a normal blaster, except you have an infinitely repeatable, good damage, quiet ranged attack for when you don't want to spend MP or make a lot of noise. tl;dr: Armor choice -- choose depending on your strength, either go for the heaviest stuff that will let you cast your spells or light armor and ozo's depending on your stats and apts. Hill orcs, nagas and ogres cast well in heavy armor. Tengu can go for medium, like FDA, but do well with whatever. Vp or formerly, HE prefers light to medium. Spell Choice -- whatever you want, but favor spells that help you while you're fighting by providing allies, dealing damage over time, disabling enemies or dealing big spikes of damage reliably to things you want gone (OoD, CBL, etc.).
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Feb 14, 2017 05:14
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The two new gods Uskayaw and Hepliaklqana sound like a blast. I have a rather odd request - could anyone talk about their trip reports/game stories, esp with the above two gods? It's been two years since I've played but I'm -still- a bit burnt out on crawl, would rather live through games vicariously.
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Feb 14, 2017 05:17
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I aim for troll leather armour for the early game on most of my characters, which are basically all hybrids, and sometimes wear it for the entire game including extended. Leather armour is the lightest armour you can wear that is compatible with ozo's armour. That spell is extremely good for hybrids. The chunk of AC it provides makes up for the weakness of leather while having very little impact on your spellcasting. I use troll leather armour because the regneration is universally useful. Plus literally every species other than draconians (and felids (and octopodes)) can wear it as well, and its easily acquired once you reach the portion of the dungeon where trolls show up. There are other options of course, but I wouldn't use anything heavier than fire/ice dragon armour if you're planning on casting a good amount of spells. The most amazing gear for your typical hybrid is pearl dragon armour, as it provides huge AC while only having the encumbrance of fire dragon armour. It is exceedingly rare though, so you should never plan on finding it.
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Feb 14, 2017 05:21
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Unimpressed posted:Holy poo poo, sounds like you're playing DEFE very differently to how I do it, and since I have had no success, I'm very very keen to learn and improve. I usually train spellcasting/conj/fire magic, stop training fire magic at like 8 or so. conj I will keep training for most of the game. dodging and fighting I start training sometime before lair, once I have conjure flame and sticky flame castable that means my offenses are fine for a long time. but I often still train conj alongside those, so like conj/dodging/fighting during this time, and shields up to 4 if I found a buckler. I upgrade to leather and then ring mail(or sometimes troll leather or MDA) as soon as I can while keeping conjure flame castable, and train spellcasting as needed if a dope spell shows up that I want asap. Looking at my ongoing morgue it looks like I hit 5 in both dodging and fighting on d9(was at 11 conj at that point, so I guess I started training defenses once I stopped training fire magic, which makes sense because I like to train 3-4 skills at a time), and continued training both past that until they hit 10(a bit after entering lair). I do put points in Str as DE, yeah. Usually the first few. I don't remember how many I did last time because I sorta wing it but I usually aim for 10 Str or so for fairly comfortable casting in ring mail(or like, MDA). Sage Grimm posted:2. INT is all you invest into as you are a glass cannon and you should be making your spellpower as large as possible. The counter to a low HP pool is to kill things as fast as possible. You're a cannon, but you don't actually have to be made out of glass. said character from lost recording is post lair branches now(and got a +5 ring of protection after the earlygame) which unfortunately means it's not very useful anymore to see it for the purposes of "what to do pre-lair" because I've gotten a lot of levels and loot since then, but here it is in case this is useful as an example for anyone(I think someone was asking about midgame and onwards caster earlier?):    the only reason I am training fire magic higher is because there is a book with ignition in a shop and I want to use it on V5 for fun. I also have an artifact flail with +Str on it, but I already had enough Str to cast everything in this armor anyways(even discounting the +int ring I am also wearing). Spellforged servitor is extremely strong and I will go out of my way to learn it. I actually leave 5-7 spell slots open when I worship Veh so I don't miss memorizing it if it is temporarily gifted to me, which is exactly what happened this game. LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Feb 14, 2017 |
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Feb 14, 2017 05:21
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IronicDongz posted:Inner flame [is] bad. Even when there isn't anything really big it can be more mana and time efficient to inner flame and pop a gnoll to kill the entire pack instead of killing them 1 by 1 with tongue. I always get conjure and sticky beforehand but there's usually plenty of space to pick up inner flame before fireball, and the power is good enough even with 0 hexes. Of course if you have undead slaves or an ancestor to use as a bomb it gets really good but even with just the fire starter book inner flame is useful imo. Darox fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Feb 14, 2017 |
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Feb 14, 2017 05:38
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I started this back up, pressing ! at the beginning because I ain't no pussy.* *or I just want an excuse for losing again and again. So I rolled a mighty TrFE, which totally sounds like a great idea. Found on first floor, two rings of Wizardry. ....so... I actually have a caster online, and I'm reading a lot of the advice for DEFEs and thinking, "Weapons? Why not just use your giant claws?"
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Feb 14, 2017 05:47
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You can kill all those things by using flame tongue from behind a conjured flame(or sticky flame once you have that), and the stuff that won't stay behind a conjured flame dies to the conjured flame(plus sticky flame, once you have that). Inner Flame is not a spell that helps you win fights, it just lets you win fights you would already win faster. It's a "win more" spell, and is a waste of spell slots because in a situation where you have something trapped behind a flame, you are already in total control and do not need more firepower than the bare minimum needed to kill that thing and its friends. It just makes you feel cooler because you blew stuff up(for effectively the same result as killing that stuff with flame tongues). ps Sage Grimm up until like, maybe a week ago? I had never looked directly at your avatar and thought it was like a weird blue sad bearded gnome man with a yellow ear and a big nose looking to the right 
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Feb 14, 2017 05:51
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I could see a case for inner flame if you really need to save MP, but the kind of enemies you want to make effective use out of inner flame you can also just fireball as part of a crowd. This means if you're using Vehumet MP is rarely a problem anyway so it seems kind of redundant. Coincidentally I like my FEs and throw flame/inner flame I just drifted away from using altogether, I think it's the pressure from early game's lack of spell levels so I can't justify taking either over conjure flame+sticky flame+fireball.
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Feb 14, 2017 05:52
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IronicDongz posted:ps Sage Grimm up until like, maybe a week ago? I had never looked directly at your avatar and thought it was like a weird blue sad bearded gnome man with a yellow ear and a big nose looking to the right You aren't the first but I have always liked the interpretations people make of the image. I'm keeping that one, it makes me smile. 
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Feb 14, 2017 05:58
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IronicDongz posted:You can kill all those things by using flame tongue from behind a conjured flame(or sticky flame once you have that), and the stuff that won't stay behind a conjured flame dies to the conjured flame(plus sticky flame, once you have that). apple posted:I could see a case for inner flame if you really need to save MP, but the kind of enemies you want to make effective use out of inner flame you can also just fireball as part of a crowd. This means if you're using Vehumet MP is rarely a problem anyway so it seems kind of redundant.
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Feb 14, 2017 06:02
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It can be more MP efficient but that doesn't mean much in a fight which would be effectively won anyways so it's not worth the spell slots, or the noise(it is as noisy as fireball, every time an inner flame'd monster explodes)
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Feb 14, 2017 06:11
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Yeah, I've pretty much never memorized throw flame (why am I not just using flametongue in this situation?) or inner flame (why am I not just using fireball in this situation?), especially because getting inner flame online before fireball means investing into hexes which...I don't want to do as a conjurations caster. I do tend to stay in robes all game, though, because I'm terrified of armor penalties. I'll look into graduating up to ring mail on casters.
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Feb 14, 2017 06:21
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Panic! at Nabisco posted:Yeah, I've pretty much never memorized throw flame (why am I not just using flametongue in this situation?) or inner flame (why am I not just using fireball in this situation?), especially because getting inner flame online before fireball means investing into hexes which...I don't want to do as a conjurations caster. I never get any hexes when using inner flame. You don't need it, the fire skill investment is enough. Same way you don't need any poison magic to use meph cloud. That's true for most low level dual school spells where you are only invested in one half, you can usually ignore the other school entirely. e: If you've got mediocre fire apt and great hexes apt it would be reasonable to get some hexes (I would ask why you are playing a VpFE though) but for everyone else just ignore the extra school. Darox fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Feb 14, 2017 |
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Feb 14, 2017 06:30
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IronicDongz posted:Lots of info about playing as DEFE Thanks for this, it is much appreciated. Do you have any morgue links I can browse? Especially more recent ones with details about individual skill levels? In general, if I wanted to look up some of your (and other good players') morgues, what's the best way to go about it? I can find your morgue files but they're just text files and there's no indication what you played in each one (short of clicking into each one).
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Feb 14, 2017 06:42
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Well, you can look at people's player pages on akrasiac, which do show info like background/god near the morgue links. Here's mine. You'll notice that my winrate isn't actually very good, though to be fair I mess around a ton most of my games... also it has games from like 2013 shortly after I started playing, I definitely wouldn't look to my earlier games as a model of how to play. Also looking at games by someone like Yermak or zzxc would probably be better anyways! A better way to find good players than via akrasiac directly is probably to look at the recent scoreboard page, where you can sort highscores by species, time(I'm still #1 ignoring AutoCrawlBot, what's Demise occupied with?), etc., and also look at winstreaks. Kinda nicer in terms of UI and also(for the most part)excluding bots. LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Feb 14, 2017 |
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Feb 14, 2017 06:50
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IronicDongz posted:Well, you can look at people's player pages on akrasiac, which do show info like background/god near the morgue links. Here's mine. You'll notice that my winrate isn't actually very good, though to be fair I mess around a ton most of my games... also it has games from like 2013 shortly after I started playing, I definitely wouldn't look to my earlier games as a model of how to play. Also looking at games by someone like Yermak or zzxc would probably be better anyways! Thanks again, suffice it to say, I'd be enjoying the game more if I had your win rate...
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Feb 14, 2017 06:55
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Where can I find a list of all the default crawl keybindings?
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Feb 14, 2017 06:56
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ITT we all hate inner flame (except Darox) 
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Feb 14, 2017 07:21
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I don't hate inner flame, I'm just indifferent to it, thank you very much.
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Feb 14, 2017 07:47
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Panic! at Nabisco posted:I do tend to stay in robes all game, though, because I'm terrified of armor penalties. I'll look into graduating up to ring mail on casters. You don't have to wear heavier armor on casters. It's up to play style. I'm far from an amazing player; I lack versatility in my play style, play slowly and can't get a win rate over 20-25%. But I've won plenty of casters and hybrids and many, probably most, of them never put points in str or wear armor heavier than leather. I do think Dongz has a point that int is probably overvalued and it might make the game a little more forgiving to invest something into str and armor, though. If you want a durable fire elementalist, try HOFE and ignore fireball until later. Get maybe 6-7 fire and conjurations and 5 spellcasting, then use conjure flame, sticky flame and a polearm to kill everything. If you go Veh, you can start wearing armor right away, and cast in shadow/storm dragon scales easily by the end of the game.
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Feb 14, 2017 09:35
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So I'm trying out this new approach to durable DEFE. So far, it's not bad, I haven't had the usual close calls which is a positive. Sif's given me quite a few options to branch out and I can't really decide which way to go. I'm thinking Iron Shot is the broadest single target kill spell, Poison Arrow a second choice (due to many rPois enemies), but Freezing Cloud looks tempting too. Would love to hear your thoughts! http://pastebin.com/raw/8zMFxyB8
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Feb 14, 2017 10:56
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You have freezing and chain lightning, go for the air. You can get PArrow up first, it has better range than iron shot and fantastic damage against vulnerable enemies. You're still in lair, most things will be vulnerable to poison or fire except for elementals and dancing weapons in elf. Also you have shoals and spider and neither of them have much rPois compared to the other two (except demonic crawlers) So basically: Get PArrow, get conj and poison (like 12ish levels) to get it castable, get freezing cloud, more conjurations, a bunch of air and some ice. At that point that you should be going through lair branches and have more options but can also just go for more air and chain lightning.
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Feb 14, 2017 11:17
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I haven't played Crawl in about 5 years, but I picked it up again recently. I won with my second character, a MfIE of Xom who ascended with three runes. It is good to see that my boy Xom is easily still the best God in the game. I'm pretty sure that Xom has actually been buffed while I was away, because he never once animated my weapon against me, but he did give me about 20 positive mutations over the course of the game and cast mass confusion pretty much every time things got tough.pre:17901 | Lair:2 | let's fight this hydra while xom is bored 17907 | Lair:2 | Killed a seven-headed hydra 17966 | Lair:2 | XOM is BORED! 17966 | Lair:2 | XOM: summons 2 hostile demons 18061 | Lair:2 | XOM: cloud trail 18311 | Lair:2 | Noticed a fire dragon 18311 | Lair:2 | a four-headed hydra changed into a fire dragon 18311 | Lair:2 | XOM: polymorph four-headed hydra -> fire dragon 18313 | Lair:2 | fuuuu pre:20241 | Lair:3 | XOM: give mutations 20241 | Lair:3 | Gained mutation: You evolve. [Xom's grace] 20241 | Lair:3 | Gained mutation: You are surrounded by a mild repulsion field. (EV +2) [Xom's grace] 20241 | Lair:3 | Gained mutation: Your spells are much harder to cast, but much ... 20826 | Lair:3 | XOM: give mutations 20826 | Lair:3 | Gained mutation: You passively map a small area around you. [Xom's grace] 20826 | Lair:3 | Gained mutation: You are resistant to electric shocks. (rElec) [Xom's grace] 20826 | Lair:3 | Gained mutation: Your flesh is heat resistant. (rF+) [Xom's grace] ~ Formicid: I do not think I have been more frustrated in this game than when I played a formicid. I believe they are the worst species in the game. It took me 27 games to win with one of them, which is very funny because it is the crawl number, but also very serious because I am a huge impatient retard who does not know how to play this game without teleportation and haste. Two of my formicids died on Zot:5 in tragic accidents. At least half of them died because I fell through a shaft and landed adjacent to an enemy I could neither kill nor escape from. One died because I entered Orc and instantly fell through a shaft directly into the stone-walled end vault, surrounded by high priests and warlords. Eventually I realised that my mistake was trying to build hybrids while worshiping these extremely bad new Gods, when the truth of course is to lean on your earth aptitude as a pure spellcaster and worship Sif Muna, the best god in the game.  I think that playing formicids will actually make you a better player overall, or at least a more cautious one, because having to rely on really inconsistent escape measures makes you approach every situation like a paranoid loon. The only species that I have a lower winrate with is mummies (Fo 3.7%, Mu 2.9%). This species is too hard. The devs don't know what they're doing. ~ Vine Stalker: These guys are indestructible. They can do anything. It took me a while to understand what spirit shield and draining magic actually do, but I eventually figured out that it means you can't die unless there are more enemies on screen than you have MaxMP. This is a pretty powerful ability so I'm not sure how it made it into the game. Given that my Mf was a hybrid and my Fo was a spellcaster, I decided to make my VS a Pure Melee Combatant, so I naturally started as an arcane marksman, a class which literally no one ever casts spells with. Unfortunately I was not aware that Vine Stalkers accidentally have Debug Mode turned on and therefore cannot die, because if I had known this I might have taken a more difficult God. Instead I took the best God in the game, Yredelemnul, who has a hidden ability that unlocks at 6-stars of piety where he basically completes the first two thirds of the game for you. pre:18627 | D:12 | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a bone dragon) 18695 | D:12 | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a profane servitor) ... 19389 | D:13 | Received a gift from Yredelemnul (a bone dragon) Morgues: VSAM, FoEE, MfIE. ~ In all seriousness I am once more hooked on Crawl and even though it is a very different game now than it was Back In My Day I think the vast majority of the changes are positive.
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Feb 14, 2017 13:22
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Mu. posted:I think that playing formicids will actually make you a better player overall, or at least a more cautious one, because having to rely on really inconsistent escape measures makes you approach every situation like a paranoid loon.
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Feb 14, 2017 13:26
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Yeah, try one again as a fighter with a tower shield, 2 handed weapon of choice and a triple crossbow for back up, watch as everything dies.
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Feb 14, 2017 15:05
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Carcer posted:Yeah, try one again as a fighter with a tower shield, 2 handed weapon of choice and a triple crossbow for back up, watch as everything dies.
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Feb 14, 2017 15:26
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Whoa check out this non-tile playing tough-guy. Formicides are tons of fun but I think they're very tough to survive with post-five runes. Hells are nasty enough without escape options and that goes for Pan too. It just fuckin rocks being able to wield an executioner's axe and a giant shield and not worry about being slowed down or teleported. Shame about the head slot though.
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Feb 14, 2017 15:28
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