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Actually, she's done that with other villains three times, if you count Fray as a villain (which I do, murder is bad), one for every big-deal-well-regarded part of the game she's written. You could count Yotsuyu twice, too, if you really wanted. I think she's written other storylines around the place, but I don't remember the list enough to count them. I know she created Ysayle, but didn't write her in HW, so that doesn't count.SirSamVimes posted:Human sympathetic villains isn't a "trope". Trend? Recurring concept? Natsuko seems to really like putting big, dramatic sympathy plays for her villains right near their end (sometimes more than once, Yotsuyu got two), whatever you want to call them. I'm just pointing this out in relation to the one guy it's not gonna work for. In terms of comparisons to other Final Fantasy villains, Emet is very Kuja in terms of making you sympathize with strong emotions about concepts too grand to fully grasp, and that works for them. Yotsuyu is one without a clear comparison but she's clearly keying off a very realistically bad past into her form of grand vengeance, which isn't a world away from a few minor villains, and I'm not fond of the final form it takes but it worked really well during 4.0. And I guess Fray was that one scene in FFIV that people apparently like, I dunno, I wasn't big on IV. But Fandaniel is Exdeath by way of Kefka. Just an unmitigated awful person, a total shitbag, with nothing getting in the way of just wanting to murder him even harder. You don't need that sort of character to have sympathy plays, and in fact it can hurt them, introduces hesitation when the best part of them is their failure and eventual death being pure catharsis.
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May 4, 2021 01:34
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Natsuko also wrote Asahi, who was an rear end in a top hat to the end And wouldn't ya know it Guess whose body Danny is driving around
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May 4, 2021 01:49
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Well yeah, I just think it's a weird leap to go from all that and go "Clearly they're going to make him a tragic figure again" because they did that with another villian....once. They were also very aggressively trying to do the same thing with Elidibus.
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May 4, 2021 01:49
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Kyrosiris posted:They were also very aggressively trying to do the same thing with Elidibus. Oh poo poo twice out of all the villains. No seriously it's not happening. Relax.
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May 4, 2021 01:55
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Kyrosiris posted:They were also very aggressively trying to do the same thing with Elidibus. Oh poo poo, you're right, I forgot about him. Four times! Technically five if you count 4.0 and 4.3 Yotsuyu separately! Meanwhile the villains she hasn't done that with at all have been... Asahi, yeah, and Vauthry? If someone has the list of questlines under her belt it'd be appreciated.
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May 4, 2021 02:01
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Cleretic this isn't a coin flip/percentage roll based on which villains have and haven't had sad backstories you're meant to feel something about, it's writing a character and nothing so far has indicated it's going that way at all and in fact it's being written way differently than the previous two ascian main bad guys. In the other thread pretty recently you straight up admit you don't pay attention if you don't already like the character speaking, so maybe just relax and wait for the plot to actually happen instead of trying to do....whatever this strange divination is.
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May 4, 2021 02:11
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Oh poo poo twice out of all the villains. I don't necessarily inherently agree with the angle Cleretic is posing, I'm just saying that they tried real hard to do to Elidibus what they fairly successfully pulled with Emet.
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May 4, 2021 02:19
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That's the thing about character motivations, especially villains: Either they're evil because of past trauma, or evil because they want to attack and dethrone God, or because they think they're doing the right thing/greater good. Very rarely, you get some who are just sociopaths, but as Zenos chat has shown us, that doesn't make for a very interesting antagonist when they have all of the motivation of a Saturday morning cartoon villain.
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May 4, 2021 02:20
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Cleretic this isn't a coin flip/percentage roll based on which villains have and haven't had sad backstories you're meant to feel something about, it's writing a character and nothing so far has indicated it's going that way at all and in fact it's being written way differently than the previous two ascian main bad guys. In the other thread pretty recently you straight up admit you don't pay attention if you don't already like the character speaking, so maybe just relax and wait for the plot to actually happen instead of trying to do....whatever this strange divination is. At this point I'm just trying to get a bead on the main writer and the things she seems to lean towards writing, which I find a useful and interesting way of understanding an ongoing story and at times an effective way to make predictions. Like, we're not going to get 'Hydaelyn is evil' under her not just because that's stupid and they haven't pointed towards that at all, but because she doesn't seem in any way interested in 'turns out the good guy is evil'. She clearly prefers the opposite, to go 'turns out the bad guy has noble goals (or at least a sympathetic reason)'. I'm just trying to find more tendencies like that. I know she seems to like various forms of 'ghosts of the past', too, stuff like that has come up a lot with her (just off the top of my head 70 DRK, Tsukuyomi's transition phase, pretty much the entirety of Amaurot) and yet basically nowhere else. She likes that one, so it's a fair guess that's gonna come in somehow in Endwalker.
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May 4, 2021 02:34
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We can presume that Zenos is a product of his upbringing, but she also isn't shy, as a writer, about going 'Yeah, we can see how they got there. They still gotta die, though.'
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May 4, 2021 02:50
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Waffleman_ posted:Natsuko also wrote Asahi, who was an rear end in a top hat to the end yea I really just doubt they're going to do some 'actually drat Daniel was a good boy all along, cry for him' thing for him, it's just probably gonna be more 'this is what broke this guy so bad, it's sad that someone with potential like an Ascian fell so far, oh well go kill him now because he's sure as poo poo not that guy anymore'.
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May 4, 2021 03:35
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Cleretic posted:Actually, she's done that with other villains three times, if you count Fray as a villain (which I do, murder is bad), one for every big-deal-well-regarded part of the game she's written. You could count Yotsuyu twice, too, if you really wanted. I think she's written other storylines around the place, but I don't remember the list enough to count them. I know she created Ysayle, but didn't write her in HW, so that doesn't count. Alright, now that Cleretic has firmly stated their take, we can close the thread, as we all know that exactly the opposite of everything they said will happen
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May 4, 2021 05:15
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Waffleman_ posted:*Cinemasins voice* Characters with depth trope *ding* Now lets not be that mean, She doesn't say her posts are parody or something... when called out on them like CS used to. She just digs in harder.
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May 4, 2021 05:26
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apostateCourier posted:The Ran'jiit would work too. Ice him in a solo duty (with white auracite and the weapon of light bit as a duty action after he bites it and his soul pops out or w/e), leave his ruined body face down on the cold hard ground to go deal with the real threat. How about : ice him in a solo duty... as Krile.
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May 4, 2021 05:52
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OddObserver posted:How about : ice him in a solo duty... as Krile. Actually, when you don't allow Zenos to declare himself the center of the narrative, Krile is the most appropriate person to kill Zenos, except for maybe Fordola. To the WoL he's just some fucker that beat them twice, only for the tables to turn as the WoL beats him three times; there's neither dramatic tension or buildup to that one, at this point he's like a rival in a later Pokemon game, turning up occasionally to get steamrolled progressively more easily as the disparity grows stronger. But to Krile? He's not just the one guy that beat her rear end, he's the guy that beat her rear end and then stole her Echo (granted, stole in the same way that music pirates steal music, she's still allowed to be pissed). She comes at him not just for vengeance, but as the person with an exact match in power but more experience. Plus, I always felt like the most ironically satisfying way for Zenos to die is to deny him his own satisfaction. He's already been allowed to fight the WoL plenty of times, doing it again won't make for a better story. But getting his rear end kicked by someone he might not even remember, getting denied the perpetual wish he set himself up for? That's way better than 'the WoL beats Zenos again'.
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May 4, 2021 06:23
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Can Krile actually fight? Like she has some healing capabilities, but she's not once shown an aptitude for any level of combat, unless she does something in Eureka. A Zenos vs. Krile fight would be a murder.
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May 4, 2021 06:28
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Can Krile actually fight? Like she has some healing capabilities, but she's not once shown an aptitude for any level of combat, unless she does something in Eureka.
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May 4, 2021 06:31
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HW: She fights along side you in at least one solo duty, where you’re stopping Regula in Aethereochemical during the Warring Triad chain. I didn’t look too closely what she was casting but she was an active participant as you went deeper. Found a vid: https://youtu.be/8wFAfNyq55I derra fucked around with this message at 07:05 on May 4, 2021 |
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May 4, 2021 07:01
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we could just take out zenos' knees and then like, lend her a gun
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May 4, 2021 13:08
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Farg posted:we could just take out zenos' knees and then like, lend her a gun Yeah, but then we'd have to help her grind MCH so that she didn't just keep missing.
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May 4, 2021 13:16
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Nearing the last stretch of SB I think, I liked the level 66 zone.
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May 4, 2021 14:34
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Gearhead posted:We can presume that Zenos is a product of his upbringing, but she also isn't shy, as a writer, about going 'Yeah, we can see how they got there. They still gotta die, though.' I think under the standard being talked about itt this would count as making them sympathetic and therefore Bad
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May 4, 2021 16:32
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Badger of Basra posted:I think under the standard being talked about itt this would count as making them sympathetic and therefore Bad I similarly doubt we will get anything redemptive out of Fandaniel but we may see some of his perspective or pre-Asahi incarnations etc.
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May 4, 2021 16:51
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My guess is he ends up getting jobbed to whatever the Real Big Bad of Endwalker is, whether it's Zodiark or Lunar Hydaelyn or whoever.
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May 4, 2021 16:56
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Nessus posted:So barring some kind of situation like "we have a solo duty where he panicks and runs from the WoL, while we chase him and shout his own catchphrases back at him in a sarcastic tone of voice, leading to him having some kind of moral awakening," I don't think we will get Zenos be somehow redeemed or shined up. If nothing else all I want now is to have dialogue choices with Zenos that are just his in battle lines.
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May 4, 2021 16:58
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:If nothing else all I want now is to have dialogue choices with Zenos that are just his in battle lines. "Have you the strength? (said in a sarcastic tone of voice)"
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May 4, 2021 18:14
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the_steve posted:My guess is he ends up getting jobbed to whatever the Real Big Bad of Endwalker is, whether it's Zodiark or Lunar Hydaelyn or whoever. 'Zenos' turns into 'Zeromus' so easily and we are going to the moon...
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May 4, 2021 18:19
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multijoe posted:'Zenos' turns into 'Zeromus' so easily and we are going to the moon... They're not gonna push the FF4 angle that hard, as far as story goes they don't really use old FFs for anything other than broad themes and allusion. "Dark Knight becomes Paladin, goes to the moon" and a bunch of visual and nominal references is probably the full extent of it. Even "Dark Knight becomes Paladin" is pretty contextually different in FF14, since for Cecil becoming a Paladin was about following his personal code and not binding himself to duty and blindly following authority, whereas for the WoL, that's what becoming a Dark Knight meant.
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May 4, 2021 18:45
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Chillgamesh posted:They're not gonna push the FF4 angle that hard, as far as story goes they don't really use old FFs for anything other than broad themes and allusion. ??? Every single final boss to date has been a direct reference to a a previous game, whatever the final boss is it's going to be pushing something hard
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May 4, 2021 18:53
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What was Hades a reference to
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May 4, 2021 19:05
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erenoyo posted:What was Hades a reference to The Final Fantasy IX boss 'Hades'
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May 4, 2021 19:07
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erenoyo posted:What was Hades a reference to Boss in 9. But Zenos won't turn into Zeromus.
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May 4, 2021 19:07
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multijoe posted:The Final Fantasy IX boss 'Hades' notably found in a secret underwater zone no one really knew existed
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May 4, 2021 19:08
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They're visual references but story-wise none of them are similar to their previous incarnations in the series at all. They will almost certainly use Zeromus (and Neo-Exdeath, and Bizzaro Sephiroth, and all the other hosed up body horror designs) as visual references for whatever the 6.0 last boss is but beyond that and maybe a name it's not going to be like anything else in FF.
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May 4, 2021 19:12
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Neo-Exdeath is already the boss in O4S
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May 4, 2021 19:19
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Boss in 9. He’ll turn into Zemus. Who will turn into Zeromus.
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May 4, 2021 19:23
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yeah, it'll be named Zenomus
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May 4, 2021 19:25
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erenoyo posted:Neo-Exdeath is already the boss in O4S I know. That doesn't prevent them from using the weirdo hosed up fleshmass design that FF last bosses tend have, be it the "lump of screaming demons" design like the tower leading up to Kefka or the more stylized but still horrific Ultimecia and Necron designs.
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May 4, 2021 19:27
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Zenormous
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May 4, 2021 21:06
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Chillgamesh posted:They're visual references but story-wise none of them are similar to their previous incarnations in the series at all. They will almost certainly use Zeromus (and Neo-Exdeath, and Bizzaro Sephiroth, and all the other hosed up body horror designs) as visual references for whatever the 6.0 last boss is but beyond that and maybe a name it's not going to be like anything else in FF. Well yeah, I'm not saying he's going to literally turn into the character straight from FFIV, but that will be the thematic and visual base for the final boss like Knights of the Round was for Thordan and Hades was for, uh, Hades
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May 4, 2021 21:06
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