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Absurd Alhazred posted:Yeah. A conversation that would not have happened had the people interrogating them not been antisemites. How many times must this be explained to you? This also doesn't explain the non-/anti-Zionists forced to leave for carrying similar "offensive" symbols. Eh I don't know about this. There are some versions of the Christian cross that have, hm, very political overtones. Asking what someone means by their choice of cross to display is not anti-Christian bias, and if their response is "why yes, it just so happens I do believe in a white nationalist ethnostate from which all others have been relocated into walled-off enclaves under an apartheid regime, whoa hey you can't kick me out just for being a Christian stop discriminating against my religion" I am going to be...skeptical that it was just a total coincidence that a white supremacist just so happened to select a version of a religious icon associated with their white supremacist politics and there was no intent to make a political statement thereby. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Jun 28, 2017 |
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Jun 28, 2017 02:32
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VitalSigns posted:Eh I don't know about this. There are some versions of the Christian cross that have, hm, very political overtones. Asking what someone means by their choice of cross to display is not anti-Christian bias, and if their response is "why yes, it just so happens I do believe in a white nationalist ethnostate from which all others have been relocated into walled-off enclaves under an apartheid regime, whoa hey you can't kick me out just for being a Christian stop discriminating against my religion" I am going to be...skeptical that it was just a total coincidence that a white supremacist just so happened to select a version of a religious icon associated with their white supremacist politics. The Star of David doesn't carry those overtones.
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Jun 28, 2017 02:33
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VitalSigns posted:Yes. The semantics of whether it's a setting up of a state or not are stupid. It's a land grab; you don't need some fancy pants bullshit way of looking at it that extends beyond that.
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Jun 28, 2017 02:34
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Disinterested posted:The semantics of whether it's a setting up of a state or not are stupid. It's a land grab; you don't need some fancy pants bullshit way of looking at it that extends beyond that. Well, I think the semantics are kind of important in that the root of the statement is obviously about presenting Israel as inherently illegitimate by presenting it as a nascent entity rather than an actually-existing one. Which is defensible as a way to justify one-state solutions or if you feel that the current existence of Israel is too intransigently tied up with discrimination to be reformed without a clear break from the past.
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Jun 28, 2017 02:36
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I should add: aside from large demographic waves of Jews moving to Israel like Russians after the fall of the Berlin Wall, there is a general correlation between Israel engaging in some controversial brutalisation of Palestinians and a rise in immigration, and also a corresponding increase in reported antisemitism. Imagining these issues to be easily divisible in reality is a fool's errand, no matter how many times people yell 'anti-Zionism is not antisemitism' in to the argument to clear their throat before they speak.Pachakuti posted:Well, I think the semantics are kind of important in that the root of the statement is obviously about presenting Israel as inherently illegitimate by presenting it as a nascent entity rather than an actually-existing one. Which is defensible as a way to justify one-state solutions or if you feel that the current existence of Israel is too intransigently tied up with discrimination to be reformed without a clear break from the past. It does smack of thinking a problem just came in to being because one just read about it in the newspaper, yes. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Jun 28, 2017 |
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Jun 28, 2017 02:36
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Pachakuti posted:The Star of David doesn't carry those overtones. Agreed. Neither does the Christian cross. The flag of Israel does though. As do certain juxtapositions of the cross-and-flame (but not others, for example the Methodist cross). So it doesn't seem inherently unreasonable to me to ask someone whether their symbol is intended to represent their religion or their politics, if an ambiguous symbol is chosen. And if the response is "well yes I just so happen to be a political supporter of apartheid thanks for asking", well maybe it's still a coincidence but I don't know.
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Jun 28, 2017 02:43
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qkkl posted:Ok I take back what I said, I watched a video by a witness and they were drowning out the pro-Palestinian chants DURING the pride event, I previously thought they did that in a past event. The organizers were perfectly justified in kicking them out for being pro-Israel. Link?
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Jun 28, 2017 02:45
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I'm perfectly willing to believe that the woman we were talking about was caught in the crossfire of a political argument between aggressively zionist protesters and their opponents.
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Jun 28, 2017 02:46
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Israel has a nuclear deterrent which makes it one of the most sovereign and established countries in the world.
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Jun 28, 2017 02:47
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Link? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMHU1LB9fnY
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Jun 28, 2017 02:59
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hakimashou posted:Israel has a nuclear deterrent which makes it one of the most sovereign and established countries in the world. One way to get around this is to convince Jews that Israel is the wrong place for a Jewish state.
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Jun 28, 2017 03:17
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There I was thinking we'd actually see a video. We have his word that they made this change to the chant, and that it was vocal enough that it required intervention (which we've seen they deny, by the way), and it still doesn't explain why people not part of the same group l but having the same flags were asked to leave, too, or furl their flags, which would have had nothing to do with bad behavior. It sounds dubious considering CDM started by justifying because of the flags. This is a protest march in 2017, surely someone would have taken a cellphone video of them "all lives matter"ing the chants.
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Jun 28, 2017 03:28
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i do not care who takes this bloody hill
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Jun 28, 2017 03:34
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I mean, how does the argument that this is a result of them chanting disruptively conform with the other part of CDM's statements?quote:It was later revealed that Laurel ... was also aware of the fact that her flag could be interpreted as being at odds with that position. The night before, she contacted an organizer to ask if her flag would “be protested.” The organizer told her the flag was welcome, but reminded her that the space is one that supports Palestinian rights. So which is it? Were they approached by Palestinians because of their flags (contradicting their own stated position that there shouldn't be a problem with these flags) or were they disrupting pro-Palestinian chants? Or did they start disrupting pro-Palestinian chants as a response to being accosted about their flags? A clear chronology and a few choice videos of the incident should help answer some of those questions.
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Jun 28, 2017 03:44
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I mean, how does the argument that this is a result of them chanting disruptively conform with the other part of CDM's statements? Yeah the phrase: "Upon arrival at the rally location in Piotrowski Park, Palestinian marchers approached those carrying the flags..." confused me because it made it seem that the flag was the original cause of the problem, but that one witness said that the ones carrying the flags were approached because they were disrupting the chant.
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Jun 28, 2017 04:07
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qkkl posted:Yeah the phrase: Yeah, and CDM's first response after the march was this: quote:Yesterday, June 24, Chicago Dyke March was held in the La Villita neighborhood to express support for undocumented, refugee, and immigrant communities under threat of deportation. Sadly, our celebration of dyke, queer, and trans solidarity was partially overshadowed by our decision to ask three individuals carrying Israeli flags superimposed on rainbow flags to leave the rally. This decision was made after they repeatedly expressed support for Zionism during conversations with Chicago Dyke March Collective members. We have since learned that at least one of these individuals is a regional director for A Wider Bridge, an organization with connections to the Israeli state and right-wing pro-Israel interest groups. A Wider Bridge has been protested for provocative actions at other LGBTQ events and has been condemned by numerous organizations (http://tarabnyc.org/cancelpinkwashing/) for using Israel’s supposed “LGBTQ tolerance” to pinkwash the violent occupation of Palestine. There's no mention of them being disruptive outside of their ostensibly overly-Zionist response after being confronted over those flags. It really sounds like an excuse invented after the fact, but again, it would be easier to be sure if we had footage.
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Jun 28, 2017 04:14
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So I guess the lady did protest too much?
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Jun 28, 2017 05:52
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Yeah, and CDM's first response after the march was this: Jewish Voice for Peace Chicago has corroborated this account, for what that's worth.
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Jun 28, 2017 06:07
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Barry Convex posted:Jewish Voice for Peace Chicago has corroborated this account, for what that's worth. You mean this? quote:On Saturday at the Chicago Dyke March, a small number of members and staff of A Wider Bridge challenged the inclusion of Palestinian human rights as an issue supported by Chicago Dyke March. A Wider Bridge has the explicit purpose of “building a movement of pro-Israel LGBTQ people and allies.” “Pro-Israel,” for a Wider Bridge, has included organizing war rallies cheering on the Israeli military during the massacre of civilians in Gaza in August 2014 and partnering with Israeli consulates in the US in organizing pinkwashing propaganda tours. That does not seem consistent with the "Palestinians approached them to check what these flags were about" claim in CDM's statement. And they seem to be careful not to claim that they've seen this incident themselves, while stating they had people at the march.
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Jun 28, 2017 06:17
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no japanese person may identify as gay until they have donated all their life savings to women's refuges in atonement for the rape of nanking and i've made it my duty to enforce this with my words and fists
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Jun 28, 2017 06:58
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in all honesty i just loving despise japanese people and do not want them in my special rainbow club. but get this: i have a justification
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Jun 28, 2017 07:00
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you see, their race is irredeemably stained by the blood of the past, and furthermore,
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Jun 28, 2017 07:00
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bitch-rear end goys of all sexualities have always argued that jews are subhuman filth rats that don't belong in their precious communities and they will continue to do so until the end of time. right now they have palestine as an excuse but that's exactly what it is to them: an excuse. there's always an excuse. now it's palestine; in one hundred years when the entire levant is a sea bed it'll be blood libel and moneylending again. i am very sick of this "oh i don't hate people who are jewish, like you. i just hate the jews! because actually as a race they're very terrible" line that these people keep trying to feed me, completely sincerely, as if they expect me to say "oh, you're right, you are actually culturally superior to me and i won't be jewish in public ever again because it upsets you so much", especially when the whole world is falling down around us and every single ethnic group is busy killing, displacing, starving or exploiting anyone below them on the food chain, and especially from loving americans
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Jun 28, 2017 07:18
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"oh thank heavens gaza is running out of electricity so now i can kick the jews out of my equality parade" - smug american goy desperate to remain queen bitch of rainbow mountain and purify the types of people allowed to associate with her community
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Jun 28, 2017 07:20
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oy vey
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Jun 28, 2017 07:20
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sir this is an arby's
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Jun 28, 2017 07:21
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And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
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Jun 28, 2017 07:22
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NLJP posted:sir this is an arby's
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Jun 28, 2017 07:23
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NLJP posted:sir this is an arby's I'm liking this meme better than 'nice meltdown'.
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Jun 28, 2017 07:23
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So was she kicked out because her flag triggered people, because she 'disrupted the chant' or because she argued with people who said that her flag was a zionist sign of oppression and insisted that was a harmless expression of her own identity?
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Jun 28, 2017 08:39
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emanresu tnuocca posted:So was she kicked out because her flag triggered people, because she 'disrupted the chant' or because she argued with people who said that her flag was a zionist sign of oppression and insisted that was a harmless expression of her own identity? If I follow she was kicked out because she had the same flag as some other people who were kicked out for being vocally zionist but I'm not sure that I do follow. I also don't think that it really matters, all the event serves to do is offer up a chance to hash out the principles of how Israel fits in to modern political discussion.
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Jun 28, 2017 08:54
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Disinterested posted:If I follow she was kicked out because she had the same flag as some other people who were kicked out for being vocally zionist but I'm not sure that I do follow. Good luck with that. It's impossible for anyone to have an issue with Israel unless they are secretly an antisemite: city of doves posted:bitch-rear end goys of all sexualities have always argued that jews are subhuman filth rats that don't belong in their precious communities and they will continue to do so until the end of time. right now they have palestine as an excuse but that's exactly what it is to them: an excuse. there's always an excuse. now it's palestine; in one hundred years when the entire levant is a sea bed it'll be blood libel and moneylending again. i am very sick of this "oh i don't hate people who are jewish, like you. i just hate the jews! because actually as a race they're very terrible" line that these people keep trying to feed me, completely sincerely, as if they expect me to say "oh, you're right, you are actually culturally superior to me and i won't be jewish in public ever again because it upsets you so much", especially when the whole world is falling down around us and every single ethnic group is busy killing, displacing, starving or exploiting anyone below them on the food chain, and especially from loving americans
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Jun 28, 2017 13:55
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NLJP posted:sir this is an arby's employs more ppl than coal Nevvy Z posted:Good luck with that. It's impossible for anyone to have an issue with Israel unless they are secretly an antisemite: 
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Jun 28, 2017 14:43
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Nevvy Z posted:Good luck with that. It's impossible for anyone to have an issue with Israel unless they are secretly an antisemite:
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Jun 28, 2017 15:13
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christianity has waged more terror against lgbtq people than any other modern religion but i don't see people who wear a crucifix getting forcibly banished from the gay community either
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Jun 28, 2017 15:19
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emanresu tnuocca posted:So was she kicked out because her flag triggered people, because she 'disrupted the chant' or because she argued with people who said that her flag was a zionist sign of oppression and insisted that was a harmless expression of her own identity? If I read the situation correctly I guess she was kicked out because she was identified as an rear end in a top hat.
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Jun 28, 2017 16:06
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Svartvit posted:If I read the situation correctly I guess she was kicked out because she was identified as an rear end in a top hat. Did she carry a big 'ole rear end in a top hat Pride flag? I'd assume that's a big brown asterisk on a rainbow backdrop, btw.
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Jun 28, 2017 16:52
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Did she carry a big 'ole rear end in a top hat Pride flag? 
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Jun 28, 2017 17:45
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To refer to an earlier point someone made, I think the idea that Israel is the only place Jews can go to avoid antisemitism is absurd. As a Jewish person, I feel far more comfortable with the idea of living in a place like the US or Canada than Israel. So the whole "yeah having an ethnic state isn't ideal, but literally all of the rest of the world is an antisemitic hell-hole so there's no other choice!" argument is nonsense. Countries where a particular race, ethnic group, or religion are explicitly favored are always wrong, because in practice it's impossible to maintain such a country without committing atrocities (either in the form of forcibly removing people from your country or turning them into second-class citizens). Things would have to be far worse than they currently are to justify them as a "lesser evil." All this being said, I don't necessarily blame individuals from countries with heavy antisemitism for moving to Israel. While Israel isn't the only country where it's easy to live as a Jew, it might in fact be the only one that a Jewish person can easily emigrate to (since it's far easier said than done to just move to America, Canada, etc). I think the focus should be specifically on the Israeli government and Israeli citizens who support the actions of their government (or don't at least ideologically oppose them). city of doves posted:turkey has a star and crescent on their flag and atm turkey is a bad country. are queer muslims now not allowed to use that symbol? what about queer muslims from turkey? they haven't personally defeated erdogan in single combat so they are as responsible for his crimes as the jewish marchers are for netanyahu's. I think there's a fair argument to be made that Israel, simply by virtue of being a particularly well-known bad country, receives disproportionate negative focus. Though the question then becomes whether the problem is the negative focus on Israel, or the lack of negative focus on other bad countries (I'd argue it's more the latter). Like, Russia is a pretty poo poo country that is doing bad things, but it seems less likely that someone with some sort of queer version of a Russian flag would be treated the same way. Though I guess one could argue that Israel specifically has history of pinkwashing, it still definitely feels like Israel is a particularly hot-button issue as far as bad countries go*. *There are various reasons for this ranging from antisemitism to the fact that broader public support for Israel means there's more of an "debate to be had" there (for example you'd unlikely to face much opposition if you say "Saudi Arabia is a poo poo country" so people don't feel as much of a need to protest on the basis of that specific issue). I think that many people also tend to find the noticeable juxtaposition between the way Israel is usually/often presented in the public sphere (as a "modern" nation, for lack of a better description) with its blatantly immoral actions. This is probably one of the same reasons South Africa received as much focus as it did. Meanwhile, most other "bad countries" are generally thought of as being less "modern/civilized", with bad behavior being more expected of them than a country like Israel. It's a pretty complex topic and there isn't really one single reason. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Jun 28, 2017 |
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Jun 28, 2017 17:49
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Svartvit posted:If I read the situation correctly I guess she was kicked out because she was identified as an rear end in a top hat. Agreed.
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