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El Burbo posted:He laughs at the guy when they wipe his memory in 3 so really he's kind of an rear end in a top hat R2 and Obi wan are also the most dishonest characters in Star Wars
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Jul 7, 2017 18:08
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Tender Bender posted:I'm not trolling at all, being A Good Master is still being complicit even if you aren't the one making the decisions. I agree that the film doesn't portray Luke negatively because of it, but isn't that whitewashing interesting? Like what's the point of vehemently arguing to establish these themes and then shying away from actually thinking about their implications? I honestly don't see how there's a conflict between establishing those themes and portraying Luke positively as a good kid in an unfair situation whose natural inclination, in contrast to everyone else, is to treat the droids kindly. It doesn't strike me as whitewashing anything in any reasonable sense. I'm also not understanding if you're going back to your original position of arguing that these themes aren't even there in the first place.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:10
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Lucas had to retcon Obi-Wan into a liar.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:13
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Super Fan posted:Lucas had to retcon Obi-Wan into a liar. What?
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Jul 7, 2017 18:16
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R2 is basically the Revolver Ocelot of Star Wars.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:17
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UmOk posted:What? "Darth Vader betrayed and murdered your father [for sufficiently generous definitions of "betrayed" and "murdered"]"
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Jul 7, 2017 18:18
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homullus posted:"Darth Vader betrayed and murdered your father [for sufficiently generous definitions of "betrayed" and "murdered"]" My guess is this is more about the "he was a good friend" line. The prequels suck, you see.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:19
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Obi wan didn't want to tell him the truth at that time It was a white lie
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Jul 7, 2017 18:20
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euphronius posted:Obi wan didn't want to tell him the truth at that time If he told him that Vader was his father there's a chance Luke might not want to kill him. Obi-Wan couldn't take that chance, Luke needed to be weaponized at any cost.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:25
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euphronius posted:Obi wan didn't want to tell him the truth at that time You can't write "white lie" without writing "lie" try it if you don't believe me
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Jul 7, 2017 18:26
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Still not seeing Obi wan as liar as a retcon. He was dishonest before the prequels we're a thing. He literally told Luke to kill Darth Vader without mentioning Vader is Luke's father.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:26
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homullus posted:You can't write "white lie" without writing "lie" Not all killings are murder 
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Jul 7, 2017 18:27
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UmOk posted:Still not seeing Obi wan as liar as a retcon. He was dishonest before the prequels we're a thing. He literally told Luke to kill Darth Vader without mentioning Vader is Luke's father. ESB "I am your father" was the retcon that made ANH Obi-Wan a liar.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:29
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UmOk posted:Still not seeing Obi wan as liar as a retcon. He was dishonest before the prequels we're a thing. He literally told Luke to kill Darth Vader without mentioning Vader is Luke's father. Well it's a retcon in the sense that you don't find out he's lied until the next film, so Empire retcons that aspect of ANH. And it's pretty well established that Lucas did not have that part of things planned when he was shooting ANH. I'd still put money on it that SuperFan was referring to "he was a good friend" because never miss an opportunity to take a dig at the prequels.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:29
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Alec Guiness was a really good actor, y'all
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Jul 7, 2017 18:33
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UmOk posted:R2 and Obi wan are also the most dishonest characters in Star Wars I think you're forgetting someone.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:44
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When Lucas wrote ANH, Vader was not Lukes father. By writing Vader as Lukes dad in ESB, he inadvertantly turned Obi-Wan into a liar. Obi-Wans name has been sullied for reasons beyond his control. Basebf555 posted:because never miss an opportunity to take a dig at the prequels. Someone doesn't like movies you like. Cry about it.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:45
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oops
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Jul 7, 2017 18:46
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Cnut the Great posted:I honestly don't see how there's a conflict between establishing those themes and portraying Luke positively as a good kid in an unfair situation whose natural inclination, in contrast to everyone else, is to treat the droids kindly. It doesn't strike me as whitewashing anything in any reasonable sense. If there isn't a conflict, isn't that interesting? Luke treats his slaves nice. He still treats them like slaves. The film portrays this positively. He is kind to them but never once questions whether he should be owning them. He only removes R2's bolt because he wants to get laid. He is in an "unfair situation" but that has nothing to do with the question of Droid ownership. I don't really understand why you are making a fierce argument that every Droid is a slave, that this is a representation of real world slavery, and then when asked to discuss how the lead character is positively portrayed as a Nice Slaveowner you just shrug it off as "well, he's Good". I never argued that the films didn't make superficial gestures toward those themes.
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Jul 7, 2017 18:51
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Tender Bender posted:If there isn't a conflict, isn't that interesting? Luke treats his slaves nice. He still treats them like slaves. The film portrays this positively. He is kind to them but never once questions whether he should be owning them. He only removes R2's bolt because he wants to get laid. He is in an "unfair situation" but that has nothing to do with the question of Droid ownership. Was every single person in history who ever owned slaves a bad person? Don't you think the issue is a bit more complex than that? It's systemic, the fact that a random farmboy from bumfuck nowhere is ignorant to it doesn't make him a bad person. And just because a person is good doesn't mean they aren't a part of a system of exploitation that is bad. These things are not as cut and dry as we'd like them to be, even something as heinous as slavery.
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Jul 7, 2017 19:12
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Tender Bender posted:If there isn't a conflict, isn't that interesting? Luke treats his slaves nice. He still treats them like slaves. The film portrays this positively. He is kind to them but never once questions whether he should be owning them. He only removes R2's bolt because he wants to get laid. He is in an "unfair situation" but that has nothing to do with the question of Droid ownership. A lot of oval office's readings are based off gut feelings about how things "should be" rather than the text itself i.e. "the Jedi are first and foremost diplomats", Qui-Gon isn't a dirtbag failure etc. He deserves praise for trying, though.
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Jul 7, 2017 19:12
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sassassin posted:A lot of oval office's readings I've been waiting for someone to make that typo. thank you
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Jul 7, 2017 19:15
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Basebf555 posted:Was every single person in history who ever owned slaves a bad person? Don't you think the issue is a bit more complex than that? I agree completely, that's why I'm trying to make Cnut see that it's not as simple as "well Luke's Good". Although there's a difference in a modern day portrayal of fictional slavery vs a historic portrayal of real slavery. It's "tactically realistic" for Luke to be complicit but it's still a deliberate choice by the creators, either to show him as a sympathetic slave owner or to make a slave analogue without adequately considering the implications.
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Jul 7, 2017 19:20
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Tender Bender posted:I agree completely, that's why I'm trying to make Cnut see that it's not as simple as "well Luke's Good". Although there's a difference in a modern day portrayal of fictional slavery vs a historic portrayal of real slavery. It's "tactically realistic" for Luke to be complicit but it's still a deliberate choice by the creators, either to show him as a sympathetic slave owner or to make a slave analogue without adequately considering the implications. You're the one who wants it to be simple though, because you don't want to accept that good people can contribute to a system of exploitation like the one in Star Wars. Luke is both the hero of the story, a good person, and someone who is also contributing to the perpetuation of slavery. The fact that he is all of those things feels cognitively dissonant but its often how things actually work in the real world. Which is what good science fiction does, it examines aspects of humanity in a way that allows us to absorb the message without having to be beat over the head by it.
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Jul 7, 2017 19:25
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It's also worth noting that Luke isn't a static character. "Luke participates in droid slavery" is pretty much only accurate until Luke catches up to Artoo. After the Tusken attack and meeting Obi-Wan, 3PO's restraining bolt is gone and Luke starts treating the droids as traveling companions rather than property (although there's still a few slip-ups like telling Leia he has "your Artoo unit"). By Yavin, he's interacting with Artoo entirely as a fellow soldier.
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Jul 7, 2017 19:33
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Basebf555 posted:You're the one who wants it to be simple though, because you don't want to accept that good people can contribute to a system of exploitation like the one in Star Wars. Luke is both the hero of the story, a good person, and someone who is also contributing to the perpetuation of slavery. The fact that he is all of those things feels cognitively dissonant but its often how things actually work in the real world. Which is what good science fiction does, it examines aspects of humanity in a way that allows us to absorb the message without having to be beat over the head by it. I'm not questioning that at all? I think Luke Skywalker is the hero of the story, and a sympathetic slave owner. I agree with you. You are projecting some weird wants and desires onto me. Tender Bender fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Jul 7, 2017 |
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Jul 7, 2017 19:33
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Tender Bender posted:I'm not questioning that at all? I think Luke Skywalker is a good person. I agree with you. You are projecting some weird wants and desires onto me. Aren't you saying that the fact that he's portrayed as a good person is problematic? That's what I took this post to mean: Tender Bender posted:If there isn't a conflict, isn't that interesting? Luke treats his slaves nice. He still treats them like slaves. The film portrays this positively. He is kind to them but never once questions whether he should be owning them. He only removes R2's bolt because he wants to get laid. He is in an "unfair situation" but that has nothing to do with the question of Droid ownership. I disagree with what you seem(correct me if I'm wrong) to be saying here, which is that portraying Luke as a good person is disingenuous or in some way unethical.
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Jul 7, 2017 19:38
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Obiwan was always a liar. In A New Hope, he is explicitly a charlatan - a Wizard Of Oz handing out purely symbolic brains, heart and courage. There are no actual psychic powers. Luke is empowered by a placebo effect. (People watching the film as kids miss all the "this is stupid" winking, even as Han Solo repeatedly explains that this is, indeed, really loving stupid.) The point of the film is, however, that lying works. It's effective. People want to be lied to, and fictions can motivate them to do great things. The sequel reveals, simply, that lies can only accomplish so much. If you are to succeed, you must accept the painful truth. But the majority of audiences chose instead to escape with Luke to the bottom of the pit - and stay there. Every subsequent film has dealt with this failure. Luke kept slaves in his house, and he worked to keep them chained only until that practice stopped being useful to him. There is no excuse for what he did. And that is not a moral judgement. What I have written is simply true, and accurate. This truth is something that you can accept, or you can run from it for the rest of your life.
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Jul 7, 2017 19:42
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Anakin's "I hate you!" is my favorite bit of acting from the prequels.
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Jul 7, 2017 19:47
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:This truth is something that you can accept, or you can run from it for the rest of your life. I genuinely love when you punctuate your posts with stabs at profundity.
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Jul 7, 2017 19:48
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Yaws posted:I genuinely love when you punctuate your posts with stabs at profundity. 'Depth' is an ideological fiction. There is nothing underneath.
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Jul 7, 2017 19:50
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The way a person, or character, acts when immersed in a system that is unjust in multiple ways is morally significant.
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Jul 7, 2017 19:53
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Bongo Bill posted:The way a person, or character, acts when immersed in a system that is unjust in multiple ways is morally significant. To be specific: Luke is moral, because there is nothing immoral about droid slavery in the ideological universe of Star Wars. Luke is, however, absolutely unethical.
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Jul 7, 2017 19:57
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Bongo Bill posted:The way a person, or character, acts when immersed in a system that is unjust in multiple ways is morally significant. Morally significant, but morally complex as well. It's usually not easy in situations like that to slap simple "good" and "bad" labels onto people.
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Jul 7, 2017 19:59
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So who is ethical in Star Wars? Since contrarian readings are abound here, is it Palpatine?
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Jul 7, 2017 20:02
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Yaws posted:So who is ethical in Star Wars? Since contrarian readings are abound here, is it Palpatine? Jar Jar Binks
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Jul 7, 2017 20:06
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Rey: You'll never be as ethical as Darth Vader!
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Jul 7, 2017 20:07
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Even if ANH hope was the only Star Wars either R2 or Obi is a liar. Reference: their first meeting and the conversation about Obi owning a droid.
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Jul 7, 2017 20:21
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UmOk posted:Even if ANH hope was the only Star Wars either R2 or Obi is a liar. Reference: their first meeting and the conversation about Obi owning a droid. R2 is established as a liar entirely within ANH (claiming that he can only replay the Leia holo if Luke unchains him). Obi-Wan actually said he didn't recall owning one, though.
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Jul 7, 2017 20:26
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Obi-Wan is a good dude and his only mistake was not killing Anakin when he had the chance. Anakin had it coming.
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Jul 7, 2017 20:29
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