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I think it's possible to get way too hung up on The Intended Meaning. Genghis Baan is fine - it's interesting when there's another layer to the pun, but it isn't of any particular importance to anything, so I'd rather get something that works in my native language and maybe just have the original pun as a piece of post-chapter trivia. Besides, it can work both ways. The cats in Monster Hunter just translate to cat companion or something similar in Japan, but in English we get Palico and Spanish gets Amigato, which is loving amazing.
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Jan 9, 2020 12:49
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Genghis Baan is a good translation. It keeps the pun and the name sounds good as well.
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Jan 9, 2020 12:55
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:I think it's possible to get way too hung up on The Intended Meaning. This. TONS of subtle meaning is left by the wayside in translations, that's just the nature of translating (and localizing) media from one language to another. Character or attack names aren't any more "important" than any other piece of dialogue, so why is it more important / acceptable to leave those in Japanese with a translator's note explaining the subtleties and not do the same with all dialogue? Arguably regular dialogue is more important than names. The the discussion from a few pages back about Ace's dialogue to Blackbeard is loaded with subtleties and ambiguity, to the point where it could be interpreted many different ways - and HAS been interpreted many different ways in different translations. Why not leave that in Japanese and include TL notes? It's far more important to the story than whether a cat guy has a goofy name. The reason they don't, of course, is because then the entire thing would just be in Japanese but with notes explaining everything. But that's my point - the only way to get the ~true~ meaning is to read the original Japanese. A localization of a manga is there for people who CAN'T do that, and should try to capture the tone and spirit of the original as best as possible. It doesn't need to try and get the ~perfect true meaning~ of the text, it just needs to get the major points across. "Genghis Baan" works fine because the character's name is a pun based on sheep and khan. Zoro's attacks don't get translated likely because "food name puns" don't work as well in English when you’re trying to set a serious tone for a scene, but also because “oni giri” is a pun in and of itself. “Oni” are demons or devils in Japanese folklore, and “Giri” roughly means “duty” or “honor”. On first reading for a Japanese reader it probably sounds like he’s saying some cool poo poo about the duty of a demon as he cuts a motherfucker in half, but then you realize “oh lmao rice ball”. I think if they were to try and translate this, you would maybe drop the food pun and try to find another pun that sounds like something threatening and serious at first, but upon closer inspection turns out to be goofy. Alternatively, could probably just drop the pun part all together and just make him say “Devil’s Duty” or something, but western culture kind of fetishizes Japanese attack names as being strange and mysterious so I understand why they’re left alone. Thinking about it, it kinda comes off as an old-timey racist “ooh, it’s a strange power from the orient!” thing, but that’s probably reading too much into it.
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Jan 9, 2020 17:01
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CodfishCartographer posted:Thinking about it, it kinda comes off as an old-timey racist “ooh, it’s a strange power from the orient!” thing, but that’s probably reading too much into it.
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Jan 9, 2020 17:11
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Cat Machine posted:Zoro's just like a samurai so I think keeping his attack names in Japanese suits the character perfectly well. I would only accept it as oriental fetishism if other characters had their moves in untranslated Japanese too Oh yeah definitely, and to clarify: I didn't mean with One Piece specifically, I just meant anime and western culture in general.
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Jan 9, 2020 17:20
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Also to be fair we have at least one character whose attacks don't get translated because they're in French and English. Luffy's attacks get half translated because they're all weapon/gun words after his fruit name, and other characters are mix and match where appropriate, Zoro has such a strong Japanese theming to his character and weaponry that I think it's perfectly reasonable for him to have Japanese attacks and sometimes English, in a way this matches Sanji haveing French attacks and sometimes English. I guess using Spanish words might also work here but that's extra translation work just for the Zorro reference, and still might have problems with pun translation.
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Jan 9, 2020 18:47
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please dont refer to me by my first name XxX or my last name XxX but instead use my middle name PussySlayer420
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Jan 9, 2020 18:48
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Lord_Magmar posted:Also to be fair we have at least one character whose attacks don't get translated because they're in French and English. Luffy's attacks get half translated because they're all weapon/gun words after his fruit name, and other characters are mix and match where appropriate, Zoro has such a strong Japanese theming to his character and weaponry that I think it's perfectly reasonable for him to have Japanese attacks and sometimes English, in a way this matches Sanji haveing French attacks and sometimes English. I guess using Spanish words might also work here but that's extra translation work just for the Zorro reference, and still might have problems with pun translation. Robin already has dibs on Spanish
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Jan 9, 2020 19:29
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RatHat posted:So One Piece is weird in that while most characters use the Japanese naming order(Last-First) like Monkey D. Luffy, Roronora Zoro, Zinsmoke Sanji ect. some seem to use the western naming order(because they're named after a real person usually) like Edward Newgate, Trafalgar D. Water Law, Eustass Kidd, ect. but are actually still the Japanese order(As weird as it sounds it seems like Whitebeard's first name is in fact Newgate, not Edward).
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Jan 9, 2020 19:46
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Eiba posted:Never followed the official releases. I've been exposed to enough Japanese media that it sounds natural to me. And that's kind of my point, I was talking about how I personally was reacting to these things, but I wasn't going to say it was a bad route for the official translation to go. I'm used to Shichibukai and think it sounds neat too, but it's totally reasonable for it to be translated differently in the official release. Thinking Nekomamushi sounds smooth and cool but Cat Viper sounds weird and bad is a valid opinion if you're talking about aesthetics. I disagree but I won't say it's wrong. I just hold to my original argument that the latter is the better name because they mean the exact same thing but the former has no impact on or meaning to an English reader while the latter does. The same goes for the Pekomamushi thing. I would rather laugh or not laugh at a bad joke rather than be told that there was a joke there in the original language by the person who is supposed to be making this understood in the language I do speak. The idea that a pun can't be translated at all though is flat out wrong and the official translation has proved that on countless occasions because Stephen Paul happens to be wonderful at puns. I feel genuine pity for people who had to deal with Kingbaum just saying "ju/tree" at the end of his sentences rather than getting lovingly written and clever tree puns. For further examples, see Basically All Of Pokemon or the Ace Attorney series. One more example and an almost perfect example of Scanlation vs Localization is the character Nossan in a show called Kyoryuger. He makes Dad Jokes constantly, it's his thing. But while English speakers think of dad jokes as Bad Puns usually based on words having multiple meanings or homophones, Japanese Dad Jokes are Bad Puns entirely based on two words sounding similar or being homophones. But those words are not going to sound the same in English nine times out of ten so the joke is going to be lost. One subbing group translated them literally and often just left in the two similar Japanese words and a note explaining what they mean. Another subbing group took the intended meaning and joke and rewrote the line to be an English pun. If all you want is word for word what was said, maybe you'd prefer the first group to the latter, but to me the latter group is more professional since they're actually translating and keeping the character a jokester rather than being literal and adding notes to clue the watchers in to why it would be funny if you knew the language... That you're watching subtitles for because you specifically do not. Sorry for so many words on Translations, but it's really interesting to me! Cipher Pol 9 fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Jan 9, 2020 |
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Jan 9, 2020 19:57
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Since we're chapterless and talking about translation stuff, I'll bring up another really good decision from the translation of Deer and the Cauldron. In Chinese there's this kind of curse word thing you can say 他媽的 which would be literally translated as "His mother's" which sounds real loving dumb. So in the translation they just go with "Tamardy" which is a phonetic transliteration of the curse and gets the point across that someone is vaguely cursing at someone else because what else would they be doing.Louis Cha posted:The fight between Thin Dhuta and the Beggar became quite a spectacle, with the little fat man ricocheting off the ceiling and bringing down an avalanche of broken tiles and dust. Finally Thin Dhuta came hurtling forwards, head down and with all his might, and when the Beggar stepped nimbly aside, he looked set to collide with the wall and spill his brains. At the very last moment, Fat Dhuta grabbed hold of one of the gambling den attendants who crouched huddled up in a corner of the room, and hurled him between the wall and the oncoming human missile. The impact was such that Thin Dhuta's head went clean through the poor man's chest and embedded itself in the wall, creating a large dent in the masonry. Is it dumb? Sure. Is it hilarious? Yes.
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Jan 9, 2020 20:52
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Cat Viper sounds weird that but that’s literally what Nekomamushi means, it’s as weird in Japanese as it is in English.
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Jan 9, 2020 21:10
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if seven of nine heaves a sigh then what do you get sigh-borg
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Jan 9, 2020 21:13
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Genghis Baan is extra funny to me because it's highly likely we're never going to see that character again so Oda just had that pun in his back pocket and needed to get it out there
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Jan 9, 2020 21:21
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Oxxidation posted:if seven of nine heaves a sigh then what do you get FLCL is one of my favorite series of all time but I never understood this until googling it just now and Holy poo poo
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Jan 9, 2020 21:21
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RatHat posted:Cat Viper sounds weird that but that’s literally what Nekomamushi means, it’s as weird in Japanese as it is in English. Oh, well then in the context of Luffy assuming it was a naming convention for minks like a complete dumbass then it was definitely the right call to translate it.
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Jan 9, 2020 21:38
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Yeah I feel like that's been the piece missing from this conversation: their names are supposed to sound weird. There's no solid naming theme among the Minks but Dogstorm and Cat Viper stand out because they're super dumb.
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Jan 9, 2020 21:47
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Blockhouse posted:Yeah I feel like that's been the piece missing from this conversation: their names are supposed to sound weird. There's no solid naming theme among the Minks but Dogstorm and Cat Viper stand out because they're super
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Jan 9, 2020 22:10
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Is the next chapter out next week or the week after?
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Jan 9, 2020 23:38
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Scratchman Apoo posted:Is the next chapter out next week or the week after? We should get the usual scanlation stuff next week, around Friday the 17th, with official chapter out a couple of days later.
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Jan 9, 2020 23:46
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Official chapter is out on the 19th yeah.
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Jan 10, 2020 00:12
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All this talk about translating mink names to preserve dumb jokes and nobody is saying a thing about how you're supposed to localize Wanda.
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Jan 10, 2020 00:35
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ZiegeDame posted:All this talk about translating mink names to preserve dumb jokes and nobody is saying a thing about how you're supposed to localize Wanda. It's perfect as it is; Wanda is a real name and Wan is the onomatopoeia for a dog barking.
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Jan 10, 2020 01:00
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Julias posted:It's perfect as it is; Wanda is a real name and Wan is the onomatopoeia for a dog barking. Oh God I never picked up on this.
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Jan 10, 2020 01:02
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Julias posted:It's perfect as it is; Wanda is a real name and Wan is the onomatopoeia for a dog barking. What about Pedro?
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Jan 10, 2020 01:11
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RatHat posted:What about Pedro? I'm a big fan of Shishilian. It's Sicilian, but Shishi also means Lion. Why is it Sicilian? Who knows. I don't think it has anything to do with Lian->Lion because Lee-An and Lai-On are entirely different in Japanese. Blockhouse posted:Yeah I feel like that's been the piece missing from this conversation: their names are supposed to sound weird. There's no solid naming theme among the Minks but Dogstorm and Cat Viper stand out because they're super dumb.
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Jan 10, 2020 03:18
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Nakama are the doki doki of your kokoro.
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Jan 10, 2020 03:49
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Julias posted:It's perfect as it is; Wanda is a real name and Wan is the onomatopoeia for a dog barking. But only in Japanese. Honestly my only problem with Cat Viper is that it's two words, and also Catsnake would match the syllables of Dogstorm better.
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Jan 10, 2020 07:19
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The names being all over the place makes sense to me; the whole One Piece world is made up of islands with wildly varying cultures and varying amounts of isolation, with some clear evidence of cross-cultural pollination, as well as clear precedent for people to flat out change their names, take on aliases or adopt nicknames as it suits them. Zou is probably particularly silly about it since it doesn't have a fixed location.
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Jan 10, 2020 07:33
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ZiegeDame posted:But only in Japanese. "Mamushi" specifically refers to a pit viper also uh assuming this bit from the One Piece wiki is true (there's a reference but it just says "Jump Festa 2016") this makes a lot of sense now quote:Brook's voice actor, Chō, made-up a song about "going off to meet the Cat Viper." It impressed Oda enough that he decided to integrate Cat Viper into the manga, as well as the song itself
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Jan 10, 2020 07:37
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ZiegeDame posted:All this talk about translating mink names to preserve dumb jokes and nobody is saying a thing about how you're supposed to localize Wanda.
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Jan 10, 2020 11:17
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Speaking of all this translation talk... There's a bit of drama involving Stephen, the official translator for One Piece. http://www.arlongpark.net/showthread.php?t=54556&page=7&p=4025192&viewfull=1#post4025192 I haven't read the entire thing but man, I really feel for Stephen, having to deal with a buncha idiots who are hella eager to jump at every perceived mistake they find.
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Jan 10, 2020 11:34
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Cat Machine posted:Woofda Barkley.
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Jan 10, 2020 12:56
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ZepiaEltnamOberon posted:Speaking of all this translation talk...
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Jan 10, 2020 14:46
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The real-life drama around the manga the past couple weeks is almost as good as what's happening inside it, imo! Really love the irony of the current story being all about a Japanese guy translating these inscrutable runes so that everyone else can understand a grand tale while irl MangaStream and Jaminis are wiped out and leaving us to pore over bad scans and correction tweets. This is our void century!!
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Jan 10, 2020 15:04
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That sure is one hell of a sea lion.
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Jan 10, 2020 15:12
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Kill all anime and Manga fans imo
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Jan 10, 2020 15:46
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hmm, stephen should post here instead. i PM'd him like 10 years ago on arlongpark and he said he had an account here and even posted once or something but never returned. then i got banned there.... these are trying times!!
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Jan 10, 2020 16:17
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I think I'm gonna stick with the guy who has direct access to Oda's editor over some internet rando.
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Jan 10, 2020 16:56
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Lpzie posted:hmm, stephen should post here instead. i PM'd him like 10 years ago on arlongpark and he said he had an account here and even posted once or something but never returned. then i got banned there.... these are trying times!!
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Jan 10, 2020 17:19
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