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PeterCat posted:I just got done listening to Mike Duncan's "Storm before the Storm." History's full of people who figured that it was OK for them to break the rules because it was 100% worth it and everyone would see how this was clearly a one off and certainly no one will use this as precedent to do the same thing for their own reasons.
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Oct 20, 2020 03:21
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PeterCat posted:I just got done listening to Mike Duncan's "Storm before the Storm." He probably didn’t give all that much of a gently caress what happened after he was dead, given that he retired to party himself to death.
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Oct 20, 2020 03:21
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That's one of the situations where there's a missing book I wish we had. Sulla wrote one explaining his actions and why he did everything. Obviously it would be biased, but man what an insight we would have on him if it had survived.
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Oct 20, 2020 03:25
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He got rid of the specific powerful men who were making trouble at the time, and he got rid of the institution that was empowering them, so he expected everybody else to just get along because he told them to. If there were clear signs his approach wasn't gonna work, it's not like people would be that eager to tell Mr. Proscription about it. I think a lot of "smart people" constantly come to the conclusion that what they need to do is reduce the amount of people having a say in government instead of increasing it.
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Oct 20, 2020 03:27
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Also I think people underrate how much of a fuckhead Marius was because they just think of military reforms. Everything I've read in that period makes me think they were both pricks but Marius was way more of one, and that probably drove Sulla to be more extreme.
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Oct 20, 2020 03:34
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Grand Fromage posted:That's one of the situations where there's a missing book I wish we had. Sulla wrote one explaining his actions and why he did everything. Obviously it would be biased, but man what an insight we would have on him if it had survived. It didn't? The Duncan book gives the impression it did, but maybe he meant the influence of Sulla's work survived? Also, is Trump our Sulla? Minus the proscriptions and military prowess? I mean, is he the guy who breaks the sacred taboos and nothing will be the same after? PeterCat fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 03:37
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PeterCat posted:It didn't? The Duncan book gives the impression it did, but maybe he meant the influence of Sulla's work survived? Gingrich was our Sulla.
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Oct 20, 2020 03:45
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Sulla was the original himbo
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Oct 20, 2020 03:47
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Grand Fromage posted:That's one of the situations where there's a missing book I wish we had. Sulla wrote one explaining his actions and why he did everything. Obviously it would be biased, but man what an insight we would have on him if it had survived. My initial thought in response to this is that it would be unreadable, or at least much less readable that Caesar's works. But maybe not. Most dictators in modern times are bad writers (certainly Hitler, Qaddafi, and the Kims wrote some pretty inane stuff), but perhaps whatever psychological factors are responsible for this deficiency didn't apply in antiquity.
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Oct 20, 2020 03:52
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Trump has done gently caress all but run his mouth, call me back when american political leaders start liquidating each other en masse in a fiendish conspiracy to seize power. All his encouragement of partisan street mobs to enforce his will, as nasty and as bad a sign as it is, is one guy starting to use a tactic that was virtually omnipresent and employed by all the major players in the late republic. USA is still at the “Gracchan” stage of republic system collapse where nothing can get done to make the problems in the system better but elites have not yet totally given up on the system and started cutting out power for themselves by open war, they are still just using limited and targeted violence to achieve their aims within it.
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Oct 20, 2020 03:53
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PeterCat posted:It didn't? The Duncan book gives the impression it did, but maybe he meant the influence of Sulla's work survived? Rome usa comparisons are loving retarded. Stop trying to use the one or two pop history books about ancient rome you've read drive your opinions on the modern us. Sacred taboos get broken all the time. Fdr running for a third term, teddy trying for ten years, Mondale running with a female vp nominee. Things change, senators weren't even directly elected until 1914. Wasting time thinking about poo poo that happened In a different society, with different values, hundreds of years ago is stupid.
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Oct 20, 2020 03:57
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PeterCat posted:It didn't? The Duncan book gives the impression it did, but maybe he meant the influence of Sulla's work survived? We have a lot of writing about Sulla (some of which is from authors who likely read his book), but no, the book he wrote is gone beyond a few bits quoted by other writers.
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Oct 20, 2020 04:02
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I think comparisons between Rome and America can be useful just as comparisons with any other state can be useful. But the big taboo that was being broken on the way to the fall of the Republic was the use of political violence in the streets, and we're very much extremely not there yet (although some people are trying). Or we were there in 1880 and it didn't actually lead to a further breakdown on a national level, although it did entrench some autocracies at the local level throughout the country.
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Oct 20, 2020 04:26
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PeterCat posted:I just got done listening to Mike Duncan's "Storm before the Storm." Perhaps Sulla was not smart and was instead a temperamental patrician
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Oct 20, 2020 04:27
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Gaius Marius posted:Sulla was a dumb prick lol
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Oct 20, 2020 06:51
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E:nm
Alhazred fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 07:10
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e:quote is not edit
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Oct 20, 2020 07:43
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SlothfulCobra posted:I think comparisons between Rome and America can be useful just as comparisons with any other state can be useful. Also we were there in the 1850s, and it very much did lead to a further breakdown on a national level.
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Oct 20, 2020 08:40
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Gaius Marius posted:Rome usa comparisons are loving retarded. Stop trying to use the one or two pop history books about ancient rome you've read drive your opinions on the modern us. Sacred taboos get broken all the time. Fdr running for a third term, teddy trying for ten years, Mondale running with a female vp nominee. Things change, senators weren't even directly elected until 1914. Wasting time thinking about poo poo that happened In a different society, with different values, hundreds of years ago is stupid. yeah
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Oct 20, 2020 09:24
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Cyrano4747 posted:This isn't a "schools of empire" thing and more just a "how you teach discipline children pre-1950ish" thing. You don't have to look far at all in non-Empire, non-totalitarian school systems to find rote memorization, instruction given from the front of the classroom in a lecture format, and tons of what we would today recognize as physical and mental abuse as disciplinary tools. There was a British travel writer who visited humboldt-era Prussia and he recalled how surprised he was that students went about their day without fear or expectation of physical reprimands from their teachers.
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Oct 20, 2020 10:02
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Gaius Marius posted:Rome usa comparisons are loving retarded. Stop trying to use the one or two pop history books about ancient rome you've read drive your opinions on the modern us. Sacred taboos get broken all the time. Fdr running for a third term, teddy trying for ten years, Mondale running with a female vp nominee. Things change, senators weren't even directly elected until 1914. Wasting time thinking about poo poo that happened In a different society, with different values, hundreds of years ago is stupid. I don’t know that this is a local rule, and I don’t think you should be probated for one use. However, it is very possible to use words other than slurs to describe someone as an idiot. Please be considerate.
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Oct 20, 2020 12:41
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Mr. Nice! posted:I don’t know that this is a local rule, and I don’t think you should be probated for one use. However, it is very possible to use words other than slurs to describe someone as an idiot. Please be considerate. Umm, I'm sure you didn't mean to do it, but if you could refrain from using the i-word... Yeah...
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Oct 20, 2020 12:57
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Gaius Marius posted:Rome usa comparisons are loving retarded. Stop trying to use the one or two pop history books about ancient rome you've read drive your opinions on the modern us. Sacred taboos get broken all the time. Fdr running for a third term, teddy trying for ten years, Mondale running with a female vp nominee. Things change, senators weren't even directly elected until 1914. Wasting time thinking about poo poo that happened In a different society, with different values, hundreds of years ago is stupid. Not surprised that Marius would be so hostile to Sulla posting.
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Oct 20, 2020 14:20
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PeterCat posted:Not surprised that Marius would be so hostile to Sulla posting. I'm Mithridates and I approve of this message.
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Oct 20, 2020 14:24
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Stringent posted:Umm, I'm sure you didn't mean to do it, but if you could refrain from using the i-word... Yeah... My deceased sister was mentally retarded. She had an IQ of 52. She lived in a group home most of her adult life because she could not live on her own. She was one of the sweetest and most loving people on the planet. I don’t think it’s appropriate to denigrate people by comparing them to someone like her. It isn’t difficult to remove slurs from daily use. Feel free to keep on keepin on, though. E: I apologize for the derail and won’t bring it up again. E2: It isn’t used in GiP, either. Mr. Nice! fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 14:27
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It’s a word that’s fallen out on a forum by forum basis. I don’t know where A/T stands on it and I don’t want to speak for Fromage in his forum, so don’t take this as any kind of Red Star Admin Voice statement. What I will say is that it’s not used in the forums I mod (TFR and SAL) for the basic reasons Mr Nice articulated. My .02 is that it’s easy enough to call someone I’m arguing with online a fuckface rear end in a top hat and not punch down on people who aren’t part of it.
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Oct 20, 2020 14:41
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Cyrano4747 posted:My .02 is that it’s easy enough to call someone I’m arguing with online a fuckface rear end in a top hat and not punch down on people who aren’t part of it. This is an interesting generational change, of course, since any term that suggests that someone is significantly below average intelligence will itself inevitably become a slur. In 2040 "intellectually disabled" or "disabled" may be probatable. I've cut "retarded" out of my lexicon already, but every time I see this conversation it's a reminder I'm old now. http://englishcowpath.blogspot.com/2011/06/euphemism-treadmill-replacing-r-word.html I'd discuss Roman treatment of the disabled here to be more on topic, but it's about what you would expect: https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/53279/The%20position%20of%20the%20disabled%20in%20the%20Roman%20Empire.pdf?sequence=1
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Oct 20, 2020 15:03
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Cyrano4747 posted:It’s a word that’s fallen out on a forum by forum basis. I don’t know where A/T stands on it and I don’t want to speak for Fromage in his forum, so don’t take this as any kind of Red Star Admin Voice statement. Basically my stance is I don't want to spend all day chasing around slur reports. I'd prefer you just stop and save everyone the trouble. If it becomes a pattern then I'll press some buttons.
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Oct 20, 2020 15:42
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Grand Fromage posted:Basically my stance is I don't want to spend all day chasing around slur reports. I'd prefer you just stop and save everyone the trouble. If it becomes a pattern then I'll press some buttons. Am I misreading this or is your official position that slurs are only a problem when they become a pattern? If you press the button when people (like me) report the person who says the slurs, it might stop you from seeing future reports by way of discouraging people from saying slurs. A/T should have at least as high standards as [checks the lepers colony] Games, where multiple people were probed today alone for saying slurs. eke out fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 15:53
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eke out posted:If you press the button when people (like me) report the person who says the slurs, it might stop you from seeing future reports by way of discouraging people from saying slurs. I've been doing this for far too long and have found asking people to stop works better in A/T most of the time because people aren't as pissed here. In a forum like Games where there's a lot more angry posting, you have to come down harder on things to cut it off. Even in A/T there are thread differences; the milhist and religion threads generate more angry posting and get more probes.
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Oct 20, 2020 15:57
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I was just pointing out that the i-word is at least as offensive as the r-word and has been frequently used in the exact same contexts, so Mr. Nice! should refrain from using it if he's really concerned about the issue.
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Oct 20, 2020 16:02
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Grand Fromage posted:I've been doing this for far too long and have found asking people to stop works better in A/T most of the time because people aren't as pissed here. In a forum like Games where there's a lot more angry posting, you have to come down harder on things to cut it off. I honestly did not realize that there was no forums-wide generic policy against posting slurs until right now.
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Oct 20, 2020 16:05
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eke out posted:I honestly did not realize that there was no forums-wide generic policy against posting slurs until right now. For the most part rules are by forum rather than universal, that's how the current admins want it. I'm not saying hey come post slurs in A/T, I do not want anyone to do that. All I'm saying is I have found talking to people or posting to cut it out works 90% of the time, so I don't go straight to probe unless it's some real wild poo poo or someone clearly just barging in to stir up a thread. If telling someone to stop doesn't fix it, then I start on the probes. Other mods prefer to go right to probes and use buttons more liberally. That's fine. If I were modding in D&D and staring down 150 reports a day I probably would do that. A/T is pretty calm so it's not hard for me to go individually tell people to stop it for the two reports a week I see. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 16:09
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Stringent posted:I was just pointing out that the i-word is at least as offensive as the r-word and has been frequently used in the exact same contexts, so Mr. Nice! should refrain from using it if he's really concerned about the issue. That sounds perfectly reasonable. From now on, the mods should probate everyone using both words. You complete fuckface rear end in a top hat, you're totally right. 
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Oct 20, 2020 16:09
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Libluini posted:That sounds perfectly reasonable. From now on, the mods should probate everyone using both words. You complete fuckface rear end in a top hat, you're totally right. drat right, poo poo for brains. 
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Oct 20, 2020 16:10
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Political street violence is nothing new in the United States. I don't know what kind of threshold it has to cross in order for a Rome comparison to be cogent, if any such comparison can be. It's also not like there's one American city that's synonymous with our civilization that you can use as the ultimate yardstick. The draft riots in NYC were, uh, pretty bad.Silver2195 posted:My initial thought in response to this is that it would be unreadable, or at least much less readable that Caesar's works. But maybe not. Most dictators in modern times are bad writers (certainly Hitler, Qaddafi, and the Kims wrote some pretty inane stuff), but perhaps whatever psychological factors are responsible for this deficiency didn't apply in antiquity.
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Oct 20, 2020 16:15
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Stringent posted:I was just pointing out that the i-word is at least as offensive as the r-word and has been frequently used in the exact same contexts, so Mr. Nice! should refrain from using it if he's really concerned about the issue. Okay, I give up, what's the I word?
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Oct 20, 2020 16:15
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American soldiers aren't as personally loyal to their generals as Roman soldiers were nor are the generals as synonymous with politician like in rome. Nothing similar to the end of the Roman republic can happen anywhere without those two factors, no matter how hard people try and twist logic to make it work.
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Oct 20, 2020 16:19
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Pander posted:Okay, I give up, what's the I word?
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Oct 20, 2020 16:19
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While he is being disingenuous to some extent 'idiot' was once a technical term too (along with 'imbecile' and 'moron'). Then again given the medical establishment at the time I'd guess it being technical was not particularly meant to exclude it being perjorative.
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Oct 20, 2020 16:32
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