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Order of the Stick is probably my favorite currently-running webcomic and I even own the official board game. (http://www.apegames.com/oots/oots-dod/oots-dod.html) I would recommend it (the comic) to anyone who is entertained by fantasy cliches! I'm answering Leikr Elferston from the main webcomics thread. SPOILERS FOLLOW, and there's probably too many for me to blank out the whole section, so those not in the know can just scroll real fast! Leikr Elferston posted:I just don't think a total bitch would end up beign a Paladin, anymore than somebody who liked burning down forests would end up as a druid. I would be with you on this except that OotS has gone out of its way to show that paladins aren't assholes. Hinjo and the other members of the Sapphire Guard are good, reasonable people, and honestly Roy follows the Lawful Good alignment faithfully enough that he could easily be a paladin instead of a fighter without dramatically changing in character. It's specifically Miko who's a violent and judgmental bitch. And we already know that she was pretty much told to leave her monastery and become a Paladin, so it's not like it was the ideal vocation for her to start with. quote:Either way, the rule semantics are a bit off. They talk about a paladins willingly comitting evil acts, but since evil acts are sometimes inherently evil, it's not clear wether they mean that you have to understand the act's implications, or simply that "willing" means you can't be controlled by a spell or something. Yeah, that's the tricky part. If a paladin sees a bunch of sinister writhing imps and hacks them apart, and then the illusion spell cast on her dissipates and she realizes that she's actually killed a bunch of human children, does she fall? All we've got is this: The D20 SRD posted:A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. And if we assume for a moment that Miko is right in her estimation of the facts (Shojo and Roy are in league with Xykon and plan to violently take over Azure City via hobgoblin horde, and if Shojo is merely accused rather than dealt with he can easily twist the laws in his favor and escape), her actions were technically justified, though distressingly violent. END OF SPOILERS! Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Jan 29, 2007 |
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Jan 29, 2007 01:39
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404GoonNotFound posted:This is probably a stupid question, but I stopped reading around 362 or so and just started again, so... does anyone happen to have a cipher for Haley's gibberish? It's a simple substitution cipher, but the problem is that it changes every strip. I bet someone somewhere has compiled a list of translations but I'm not sure where it is.
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Jan 29, 2007 03:06
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Leikr Elferston posted:Is the board game any good? It's a lot of fun, although the first few times you play it it will tend to run longer than the predicted time. It's very much in the spirit of the comic, too. quote:Yeah but she should not have gotten to a high-level paladin with her attitude at all. Nobody would do a story in wich a druid is wandering around saying I FUCKN HATE TREES Well, a Druid who screams about hating trees is like a Paladin who screams about loving demons - it's a direct violation of the class's basic premise. Miko is more like a druid who loves trees but haaaates people because toilets and horseshoes are "unnatural". (Actually, such a character appeared briefly in the strip.) quote:but rear end in a top hat paladins are so common they dominate people's perceptions. you don't see as many jackass fighters as paladins, in fact if it wasn't for zogonia I woulnd't even be able to think of an rear end in a top hat rogue. Yeah, that's true. Paladins are as close to The Man as playable D&D characters really get, so whiny "rebels" are going to gravitate to bashing them. I wouldn't classify Rich Burlew like that, though. quote:I'd say that such a reckless action would qualify as dishonerable or even unlawful, maybe even evil. After all, if somebody is forever striking first and asking questions later, that to me is kinda evil in and of itself, because they're not taking due care and acting responsibly. I agree that such actions are evil in a serious and philosophical way, but they're not necessarily capital-e Evil in the D&D sense. It's not Evil to kill Evil things within the Paladin code, even though you or I would call it morally reprehensible and probably want to jail someone like Miko immediately. (For roughly the same reason, I've never liked The Punisher much as a "superhero".) Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Jan 30, 2007 |
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Jan 30, 2007 02:22
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Wanderer posted:There's also an interesting thread where Burlew goes in and talks about the systems behind the fight where Miko singlehandedly beat the Order down. To do it, she had to use Windstriker, and she kept using Smite Evil to keep Belkar out of the fight, so she might not be able to do it anymore. Do you have a link to this? I don't really follow the GitP forums.
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Jan 30, 2007 03:19
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Oh man the latest strip is awesome. I don't really think that topping Belkar's first line is possible, and it's always great to see Roy being snappy with someone (especially when that someone has had it coming for like half the comic).
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Feb 1, 2007 03:49
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I just skimmed the Giant in the Playground forums and there's a bunch of people bitching and moaning about Roy attacking Miko and shouting snappy one liners instead of trying to be nice to her 
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Feb 1, 2007 05:39
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tsob posted:Like I said, I'm not getting dragged into that debate, no matter how much I want, and I think the last few replies are proof enough that's a good decision. I said I wanted to avoid it, and this was followed by several posts condemning her absolutely and justifying Roy's actions on every level. Look, if you're a policeman in the middle of an armed standoff with a criminal, you try to talk that criminal down until such time as the criminal starts firing wildly into a crowd of bystanders. Then you shoot. I don't know what you're talking about re: "absolute condemnation" and similar out-of-left-field hyperbole. Miko slashed someone in half and Roy moved in to stop her from doing it again. I imagine that his intent is to incapacitate her by dropping her below 0 hitpoints, but if she were to die it wouldn't be very different from the death of the trigger-happy criminal I used in an example above. Now, if you're enough of a bleeding heart to complain about Roy's hurtful remarks then I don't even know what to say to you. quote:I do wish to say though that I think Miko is the least realistic of the villians in the comic. Nale, and to a lesser degree Xykon are much more realistic because they know what they're doing is bad, freely admit it, and have a reason they keep doing it. I don't think most real murderers etc. are under the impression they're right. A few are, but not most. You really think a hotheaded murderous zealot is less realistic than a cackling megalomaniac who refers to himself as evil and wants to rule the world? Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Feb 1, 2007 |
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Feb 1, 2007 08:05
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Cowcaster posted:I think they were more referring to Roy's vocal jabs at her than anything, but personally I think that's more because it's a comic and 6 panels of people just slashing and grunting is boring, rather than to delve deeply into Roy's psyche. People who complain about Roy's remarks are pretty much bizarre moon men because they're hilarious and awesome.
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Feb 2, 2007 22:30
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Sock posted:I guess. I just hope she still cares about Xylon coming to destroy Azure City and getting revenge on Roy isn't the only thing on her mind. Hey, Miko still thinks Xykon is evil. She just also thinks that both Roy and Shojo are secretly working with him.
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Feb 4, 2007 00:38
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Rich Burlew waits for the last minute to do things just like me 
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Feb 13, 2007 06:45
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My guess is just that Xykon gave Redcloak the idea to use some kind of feint or decoy. I mean, all you need to make a body double for Xykon is to raise a skeleton and put it in a robe.
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Feb 20, 2007 15:49
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Rincewind posted:Redcloak's looking too devious for something like that. He's just got a generic >:D scheming face on, I don't see how you can say he looks "too devious". I mean, Xykon posed a situation that Redcloak realized would immediately lead to a hugeamount of enemy fire being directed at the lich, and this suddenly gave Redcloak an idea. A decoy is obvious. I can't really see Redcloak betraying Xykon, because all in all they seem pretty friendly and honestly they're way more entertaining working together than apart. If Redcloak hated Xykon enough to destroy him he'd have simply smashed the lich's phylactery long ago.
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Feb 20, 2007 19:02
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CoolCab posted:Easier, why bother with a decoy? What does it matter if Xykon gets blown up, the gate ritual takes a week anyway, he'll have plenty of time to regenerate. Redcloak gets to take the city and justifibly make his boss explode(alongside the tactical advantage this provides). Awesome. That would also work, provided whatever rituals Xykon and Redcloak need to do don't need both of their participation from the start. You know what I wish? I wish that Xykon was a wizard, not a sorcerer. This is because "wizard" is a funnier word than "sorcerer" is, and also because being a wizard means that Xykon isn't technically limited to only having a selection of around 30 or 40 spells ever and so can more plausibly cast random obscure stuff for the sake of a joke.
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Feb 20, 2007 19:43
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High Altitude Hair Stylist posted:Maybe evocation is one of his prohibited schools? Sorcerers don't choose prohibited schools. Also, he's fried his own minions with lightning on more than one occasion.
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Feb 21, 2007 17:18
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SuperKlaus posted:Xykon is shown specifically casting Meteor Swarm in one of the bonus strips in the second book, so even if Rich did give a drat about limiting sorcerer spells known it would be there. An' it can take out a ton of loser human soldiers without threatening the gate because the gate is so far from the city walls. There are bonus strips in the second book?! What about the first?
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Feb 22, 2007 02:41
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This strip was supposed to be moving, but I think it kinda fell flat. The discussion about the chances of rolling a 20 and dying to a massed attack felt more like a dry mission briefing than a grim, beady-eyed lecture; I wish we could've gotten to the actual fight and just shown a bunch of dead bodies afterwards if it was that important.
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Feb 22, 2007 06:24
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maltesh posted:But... I don't think Xykon appeared in today's strip. I think that's a Skeleton in a robe. I would like to have it on record that it was me who totally called this 
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Mar 6, 2007 07:04
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Shavnir posted:Wait a second...I thought Hinjo said the snarl's prison couldn't be moved? But what is that thing in Soon's hands in the 11th panel? I'm guessing that the rift was just hanging up in the air there (remember, it's too tiny to see unless you're really close) and they were in the process of putting a gate over it at that point in the flashback.
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Mar 6, 2007 16:22
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There's a new strip, you guys! http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html I love Redcloak.
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Mar 8, 2007 05:53
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Noonsaliwah posted:I think the real Xykon is probably waaay up in the air on an undead dragon or something... the undead dragon is as suspiciously missing as he is, at least. That would be pretty sweet, although at the moment it really looks like the Xykon who's hanging back with Redcloak is the real deal. I am going to reiterate once again that I totally called the decoy thing 
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Mar 15, 2007 19:42
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I appreciate what Erfworld is trying to do, and actually find the basic premise pretty funny (a self-insertion fanfic gone wrong, where a repulsive and unsympathetic nerd is summoned to aid the losing and beleagured bad guys). As a fan of Discworld I am always happy when an obviously comedic fantasy kingdom takes itself completely seriously for the sake of an extended joke. But through all this, Erfworld seems too forced. Typing "Twolls" and "Dwagons" isn't funny or even cute, it's irritating.
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Mar 19, 2007 18:50
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Gally posted:I just don't think this is 'need to know' information. I don't care about how ever many schools of magic they have or what seperates them. If he needs to get this information out, do it in a way that doesn't count for and is in the same place as normal comic updates. The Thursday exposition is explicitly not taking the place of the "real" comic, which turns up on Mondays and Saturdays. It's supposed to be a bonus that also serves the purpose of getting exposition out of the way.
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Apr 6, 2007 22:40
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Taear posted:It's a nice idea, and it's fun, but honestly it has some kinks that really need looking at. V being so goddamn poo poo is one of those kinks. :/ Shows what you know, V kicks rear end in that game! His area attacks mean you can effectively apply a single bonus-from-giving-loot to multiple monsters at a time, and his large amount of "flip to avoid taking a wound" cards mean he can lose three fights and still rest up to full health in one turn.
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Apr 8, 2007 04:23
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If I was in Rich's place I imagine I would find myself pretty annoyed at having every plot twist called in advance by someone, so I can really sympathize with his plight. On the other hand, I think whoever it was that said upthread that guessable plot twists are a good thing has it right - it means that the story is developing in a logical and believable way and doesn't just contain arbitrariness for the sake of arbitrariness. For instance, I wouldn't have thought of just putting decoy skeletons in robes until Redcloak made that offhanded bullseye comment (that's right guys, I saw it coming, me, Ferrinus, the smartest poster) but once it occurred to me I realized that it had to happen because it was a sneaky, intelligent move, and Redcloak was being written as smart and creative enough to come up with it, and the guy writing Redcloak's lines was smart and creative enough to think of it in the first place. I really enjoyed that bit with the arrow, by the way, because it did really well at poking fun at those people who notice that one pixel is out of place in panel 34B of the strip one hundred comics ago and spin a vast conspiracy theory around it. Once I skimmed the GiantITP forums and saw a post by someone wondering if the scrap of string floating away from Roy in the frame that Xykon snatches his crown back had some kind of huge story significance, because Rich Burlew wouldn't have drawn it in otherwise! It was the piece of string around Roy's neck that the crown had been hanging on! Those three frames where Varsuuvius is first standing there screaming incantations with eldritch fire blazing from his hands, then glancing curiously behind him as the poisoned arrow bounces off his shielding, and then is back in the same spellcasting pose are gold, too. Also, I grin every time I see this panel because it's so loving metal: 
Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Apr 9, 2007 |
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Apr 9, 2007 16:02
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Oh man I just got and read No Cure for the Paladin Blues, in which Rich Burlew writes about the possibility of an "Origin of Xykon" book, and now it's advertised on GiantITP's front page! I am totally preordering this.
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Apr 11, 2007 15:30
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Lurdiak posted:I love this comic and all, but aside from the fight scenes, Durkon is a surprisingly boring dwarf. And this is coming from a guy who has been known to scream "DWARF" as a warcry in his RPs, so I know my dwarves. I guess the energy of a dwarf doesn't translate so well to comics, or maybe Burlew is not as enthused by them as I am. I have loved Durkon ever since he lectured Hilgya about how humans always do what feels grooovy and it's your duty as a dwarf to be as unhappy as possible.
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Apr 13, 2007 15:23
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greatn posted:I'll assume a d10 hit die(since it used to be a paladin, or are those d8?), and 12th level. I'll assume a 14 constitution, because why not. So, 85 hp just for a nice number. Undead universally use d12 hit dice and do not have Constitution scores  EDIT: I have an important message for poster "Volga Boatman": t 
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Apr 19, 2007 16:25
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Rincewind posted:I think it really had to be that way for the Death Knight. He took himself way too seriously for a OOTS villain. All reaping and death and blood, and no wacky quips or pokéballs with horses in 'em or whatever. Hey, villains that take themselves seriously in an incredibly vocal and dramatic manner rule. I actually disliked the black dragon the Order killed a while back in the strip because its dialogue was kind of blandly intimidating, but I was in love with the Death Knight ever since this panel (which I am reposting from my own post like four pages back):
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Apr 20, 2007 14:39
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Spaz mk. 2.0 posted:
Holy poo poo. I was getting worried that Xykon was being characterized as just too dumb/absent-minded/apathetic for this entire battle but then he goes and does that. This is awesome.
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Apr 20, 2007 19:53
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cultureulterior posted:Booty talisman time, I think. That's what I'm expecting, but I think it'd actually be cool if Roy died. Obviously, he'd get resurrected as the result of a later plotline - he's one of my favorite characters, I wouldn't want him gone. But in the meantime we could get a neat story about him in the afterlife and see how the rest of the Order gets along without Roy around to shepherd them.
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Apr 20, 2007 21:29
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JohnnyCanuck posted:
  I can't wait to see what Roy's afterlife is like and how the Order fares under Haley's command.
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Apr 23, 2007 15:28
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Taerkar posted:Yeah, but a wizard wouldn't have the HP to survive a meteor storm spell to begin with. A wizard would have been sheathed in numerous protective enchantments!  :eugenegreenhilt:
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Apr 23, 2007 16:18
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Gally posted:Oh god, that would be amazingly horrible if we got Zombie Roy. Death Knight Roy 
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Apr 23, 2007 19:03
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Wanderer posted:It really doesn't help that a lot of OotS fans seem to have this stubborn determined streak where they'll take some random conjecture and run with it. Witness, for example, the debates over Miko. Hell, witness the one in this very thread, back around when the strips about Roy beating the hell out of Fallen Miko were posted. I forget their name, but someone was unhappy about the majority of comic readers "absolutely denouncing" (or whatever) Miko and excusing all of Roy's horrible crimes and god Miko's actions are so unrealistic.
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Apr 26, 2007 02:50
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tsob posted:That'd be me you're referring to I think. I can't even remember what I was arguing about her at the time, and I'm too lazy to check, plus hell, who wants to get into that shitfest again, honestly? As far as I can recall: -Roy was wrong to attack Miko and everyone should have been more sensitive about her troubling experience (gutting an old man in half and being punished for it) -Everyone here is clearly too biased to talk to on the issue because of how they condemned Miko and justified Roy on "every level" -Miko is the least realistic villain in a comic that contains an undead mage who wants to rule the world and somebody's evil twin
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Apr 26, 2007 05:38
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Yeroc2 posted:
I love Xykon. I also cannot wait for "Start of Darkness" to arrive.
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May 5, 2007 04:17
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It's great that such a plan would work, too. Because liches are immune to mind-affecting stuff, right? And you have to make a new save against Symbol of Insanity whenever you enter its radius even if you succeeded before? The way that thing was zipping around means that most of the paladins probably got exposed like three or four times, so even their Cha-based bonus to saves wouldn't save them. Plus most of them are probably like level eight.
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May 5, 2007 05:39
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ZorbaTHut posted:On top of that, I seem to remember that Miko was one of the best paladin warriors, and that left her only a level or two above the rest of the party (people seem to believe Miko won through a combination of good luck and DM's Plotline, as well as being somewhat more powerful than the OotS - but it wasn't an obvious overwhelming victory.) So, if that's the case, what's the average level of the fortress guard? Five? Three? Less? They're having trouble with the same set of hobgoblins that Belkar doesn't get XP for. Seriously. Xykon is a level 20ish lich sorcerer. The highest level paladin in that swarm of holy guys was probably, like, level ten or less - we know Miko was their strongest and she's out, and Hinjo, probably the second strongest, is out on the walls! "Realistically", Xykon could've just cast Wail of the Banshee or something similar and destroyed them all in seconds. Sure, they get to add their Charisma to their saves, but quite frankly plus two or three to your fort save will not give you the ability to survive a ninth-level spell cast by an epic or near-epic lich who's probably specialized in that spell's school. Xykon had this in the bag from the start - it was just a matter of him finishing the fight in a straightforward way or a cool way. Complaining about it being "cliched" when a really powerful guy defeats a bunch of weak-to-average guys is silly. You may as well complain about Roy's death being cliched because how many times has the hero died dramatically, huh, guys? Or maybe the entire battle, because wowee, big seige where the good guys are outnumbered, never seen that before 
Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 13:27 on May 5, 2007 |
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May 5, 2007 13:24
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clockworkjoe posted:The symbol of insanity is at best a loophole and munchkin exploit and at worst illegal. Think about game/story balance. A single level 8 spell wiping out 30-40 leveled characters? Why doesn't Xykon just throw a few rubber balls in the army below? Why doesn't he use it for every encounter? Total crap. They were leveled characters, but they weren't high leveled characters. It was basically a way to make a bunch of level 9-10 dudes repeat their will saves like three times each. Also, do you honestly think he needed the Symbol of Pain gimmick to beat them? Xykon is an epic level sorcerer. Like he said, he could have just chosen to rain utter destruction down on everyone and more or less come out unscathed. He actually took a lot of damage and fizzled a ninth-level spell slot as is! quote:However, my bigger concern is that Xykon is basically now a Mary Sue character, along the lines of Drizzt and company. "Mary Sue" characters are hyper-confident self-insertion protagonist characters specifically designed to outclass all the "normal" characters at everything. Xykon doesn't do this; he's just a realistically high-level sorcerer, and an antagonist to boot. He could actually stand to be a lot more careful, since he's taken quite a lot of damage over the course of the battle that could have been avoided. quote:He's basically Sauron and Sauron shouldn't be out on the frontlines. He should back in his lair, plotting evil. That never makes any sense. If you're an all-powerful archmage, why do you sit back and plot ways for your incompetent minions to win important battles for you instead of using your world-shaking magic to do it yourself? This gate is integral to Xykon's plan to rule the wold, why wouldn't he actually help capture it personally?
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May 5, 2007 17:35
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clockworkjoe posted:It's not just his spellcasting power. He just conveniently found a huge hobgoblin army and always knew where to go and what to do. Hell, he just happened to gain a new minion who healed him all of the damage Roy inflicted. Just pure luck. He also just didn't beat the paladins as I knew he would, it's how he walked over all of them with barely a scratch on him. I just think Xykon is sucking any tension or suspense out of the story. There's no way the good guys can win without a deus ex machina. Oh man, maybe "Xykon is too strong" is going to be the new "Miko is misunderstood and Roy is a huge jerk who deserves to suffer." If Xykon hadn't gained command of a huge hobgoblin army, he wouldn't be a major threat. The story calls for Xykon to be a major threat, so he gets windfalls like the hogboblin army. Guess what, the PCs have gotten windfalls like Roy's starmetal sword and Elan's custom-made prestige class! Your complaints are silly and I can only assume that you have some sort of emotional investment for paladins or against liches or something.
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May 5, 2007 19:01
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