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Jeedan posted:I think thats wnat makes Carrot a lot less interesting character these days than he was at the beginning, the natural progression for his character would be for Angua to leave or the Patrician to die but Terrys reluctant to make big changes to the world, so the character just stagnates. I think one of the reasons we're all fond of Vimes is that his character has actually progressed. He went from being a drunk nobody to a very successful man, got a wife, a child and he turned the watch from nothing to one of the most important things in the city. Carrot, however, came to the watch, he quickly became captain and at about that time he changed from the naive dwarf to a everyone-likes-him-and-he-can-do-no-wrong character, and that's it. Nobby and Colon haven't progressed, but they're kind of hard to take anywhere and I kind of like them the way they are.
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Aug 15, 2007 21:28
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I hope that the Vetinari doesn't die, he's one of my favorite characters 
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Aug 15, 2007 22:35
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Enfenestrate posted:I hope that the Vetinari doesn't die, he's one of my favorite characters Enfenestrate posted:I hope that the Vetinari doesn't die, he's one of my favorite characters
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Aug 15, 2007 23:17
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so because every time vetinari has been taken out of power things go to poo poo, this and only this is why you feel he is inevitably going to die? Not because of some poem "the death of the patrician" or from Herodotus's histories or something? Because you said it was an allusion and I asked what it was alluding to and nobody answered.
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Aug 16, 2007 00:05
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Krinkle posted:so because every time vetinari has been taken out of power things go to poo poo, this and only this is why you feel he is inevitably going to die? Not because of some poem "the death of the patrician" or from Herodotus's histories or something? Because you said it was an allusion and I asked what it was alluding to and nobody answered. The allusion is to the death of the Patrician, which nobody in the series has ever actually come out and talked about but is clearly the elephant in the room of Ankh-Morpork politics. Characters discuss that Carrot is clearly the rightful king, that there's more going on with him than initially apparent, that the Patrician has no clear arrangements for sucession, that he's rather key to running the city, that's he's getting on in years and that Vimes offed the last king of Ankh-Morpork, frequently without much relevance to the actual plot of the book in question. They don't need to come out and "OH NO I HOPE THE PATRICIAN DOESN'T DIE AS THAT WOULD CLEARLY LEAD TO A VIMES/CARROT DEATH DUEL ON TOP OF THE TOWER OF ART" for it to something that they frequently allude to - that is, an allusion. I'm not sure why you're being so confrontational.
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Aug 16, 2007 01:21
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Someone trying to top the patrician has been a common theme through most of the watch books anyhow. Guards Guards, Men at Arms (I think, I cant remember exactly what the plot was then) Feet of Clay, The Truth.
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Aug 16, 2007 01:38
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Trouble Man posted:The allusion is to the death of the Patrician, which nobody in the series has ever actually come out and talked about but is clearly the elephant in the room of Ankh-Morpork politics. Characters discuss that Carrot is clearly the rightful king, that there's more going on with him than initially apparent, that the Patrician has no clear arrangements for sucession, that he's rather key to running the city, that's he's getting on in years and that Vimes offed the last king of Ankh-Morpork, frequently without much relevance to the actual plot of the book in question. They don't need to come out and "OH NO I HOPE THE PATRICIAN DOESN'T DIE AS THAT WOULD CLEARLY LEAD TO A VIMES/CARROT DEATH DUEL ON TOP OF THE TOWER OF ART" for it to something that they frequently allude to - that is, an allusion. Usually an allusion means a reference to something else, like a reference to Shakespeare or to The Beatles or something like that. It was kind of confusing because you seem to be saying that this character was referring to something outside of the Discworld series.
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Aug 16, 2007 02:34
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I think it's been rather obvious from day one that Carrot came to town that the Patrician and he had a completely unspoken understanding. If Carrot ever wishes to seek the throne, the Patrician will certainly step down - but Carrot will never seek the throne, because that is not in Ankh-Morpork's interest. I do not foresee that anyone or anything will ever topple the Patrician, however. And if he should die, he will have become immortal through the bureaucracy he has built. The Patrician, like many such things, is a metaphor for functioning government. If his character is ever killed, I expect nothing whatsoever will happen, because he'll have succeeded in building a system that works. That being said, he is hands-down my favorite character and I hope he never dies. I can just imagine the scene. quote:In the privacy of the Oblong Office, the Patrician sat quietly at his desk, carefully reading a report from the City Watch, which had been written by someone who clearly understood the importance of punctuation, but had failed to grasp the subtleties of how to use it. I would want that to be followed by about two hundred pages of conversation.
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Aug 16, 2007 02:51
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Trouble Man posted:The allusion is to the death of the Patrician, which nobody in the series has ever actually come out and talked about but is clearly the elephant in the room of Ankh-Morpork politics. Characters discuss that Carrot is clearly the rightful king, that there's more going on with him than initially apparent, that the Patrician has no clear arrangements for sucession, that he's rather key to running the city, that's he's getting on in years and that Vimes offed the last king of Ankh-Morpork, frequently without much relevance to the actual plot of the book in question. They don't need to come out and "OH NO I HOPE THE PATRICIAN DOESN'T DIE AS THAT WOULD CLEARLY LEAD TO A VIMES/CARROT DEATH DUEL ON TOP OF THE TOWER OF ART" for it to something that they frequently allude to - that is, an allusion. Vetinari is around the same age as Vimes. He's no youngster, but he's hardly one foot in the grave. Also I don't think that Pratchett is going to ever make Carrot the king. The fact that it's constantly talked about, or at least alluded to, is exactly why it won't happen. That part of Carrot's past I think was put in there only as a knock on the stereotypical "random farmboy becomes ruler of the universe because he has a magical sword" theme in many fantasy novels. I doubt that it will ever come to pass. Vetinari is far too awesome of a character to get rid of anyway. "Never build a dungeon you wouldn't be happy to spend the night in yourself." Enfenestrate fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Aug 16, 2007 |
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Aug 16, 2007 03:13
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Trouble Man posted:I'm not sure why you're being so confrontational. Basically I haven't read as much classical literature as I wish I had time for, so any time I think people are talking over my head referencing the rhyme of the ancient mariner or something I get a little testy. I am reading through all quiet on the western front right now to rectify this but I was completely sure from your context you were saying "hey, here is some extra layer of enjoyment that only people who have read X can enjoy. Lets all enjoy this but not actually say what it is to keep the hoi polloi out of our fun."
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Aug 16, 2007 03:15
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Keshik posted:I think it's been rather obvious from day one that Carrot came to town that the Patrician and he had a completely unspoken understanding. If Carrot ever wishes to seek the throne, the Patrician will certainly step down - but Carrot will never seek the throne, because that is not in Ankh-Morpork's interest. Knowing Vetinari, I wouldn't be surprised if he talked Death into giving him an extension, should he want one. There's an idea to consider - Vetinari versus Granny Weatherwax in the field of headology. If there was ever a Discworld Clash of the Titans...
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Aug 16, 2007 04:27
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Oxxidation posted:There's an idea to consider - Vetinari versus Granny Weatherwax in the field of headology. If there was ever a Discworld Clash of the Titans... Given that Vetinari has a proclivity for creating uncomfortable silences which people try to fill by talking, Vetinari vs. Granny Weatherwax would probably quickly devolve into a staring contest which Vetinari would graciously allow Granny Weatherwax to win. Which would, of course, satisfy her. Vetinari spends the vast majority of his time arranging things so that events proceed in the way he wants them to go. You cannot defeat him, for he will forfeit. And in so doing, win. If Death ever does come for Vetinari, I suspect he'll be hired to run things in Dunmanifestin.
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Aug 16, 2007 04:50
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You know, I always thought the situation with Vetinari, and Carrot/Vimes too, was more due to Pratchett inadvertently writing himself into a corner. Vetinari and Vimes play such essential roles in Ankh-Morpork as it evolves, that losing them would make it difficult to continue the city's development believably. The books give the impression that without them around to stop all the criminals and schemers, the city would quickly fall apart. So Pratchett has to keep them alive and in power, even though doing so starts to stretch believability after a while.
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Aug 16, 2007 05:05
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qa6 posted:You know, I always thought the situation with Vetinari, and Carrot/Vimes too, was more due to Pratchett inadvertently writing himself into a corner. Vetinari and Vimes play such essential roles in Ankh-Morpork as it evolves, that losing them would make it difficult to continue the city's development believably. The books give the impression that without them around to stop all the criminals and schemers, the city would quickly fall apart. So Pratchett has to keep them alive and in power, even though doing so starts to stretch believability after a while. Believability on a disc-shaped world on the trunks of four elephants standing on a giant space-traveling turtle?
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Aug 16, 2007 05:32
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smackfu posted:I read them all in order a couple of years ago. Given that, I think there were some real clunkers in the middle. Like the Australia one. Puns about Australia = not funny. I just finished that one and it was the only Discworld book I didn't like at all. Small Gods is by far my favorite, followed by Guards, Guards. I really like Rincewind but his plot lines are pretty limited (running away from one thing to the next). I think the guard series are his most solid books, along with the other city books like Going Postal and The Truth.
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Aug 16, 2007 06:04
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I've always read Pratchett for The Watch. Interesting Times is one of my favorites, but it's clear that Pratchett himself always knew he was on to something special with the coppers. Also, I feel that a movie is intrinsically a bad idea as much of the humor stems from the writing style, though much less than it did in earlier novels. A funny sentence does not necessarily translate into a good visual bit.
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Aug 16, 2007 08:21
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I first started reading the Discworld novels about 8 years ago after my cousin showed me the Colour of Magic graphic novel. I've read them in pretty much in published order. I think I like the older and newer writing styles equally. A few points: - As much as like the new characters, I'd love to know what some of the older ones are getting up to (The witches, Rincewind and the Luggage, Susan...(Yeah I know she was in Thief of Time)) - Did Pratchett even write Monstrous Regiment? Seriously, the only book I haven't fully enjoyed. - The 'Death Trilogy' (Mort, Reaper Man, Soul Music) don't get nearly as much attention as they should. Mort especially is an amazing book. - I read Wyrd Sisters before Macbeth, and then couldn't take it seriously, and that was awesome. - The Tiffany Aching books are better than I thought they'd be - There's not enough footnotes anymore - I couldn't decide who my favourite main character was until I realised it was the Patrician when in The Truth, he picks out the spelling mistake in the middle of the block of type, when it was upside down, and backwards, and black-on-black. Its just so awesome. - Good Omens is also awesome.
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Aug 20, 2007 10:35
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Harry Potter posted:Believability on a disc-shaped world on the trunks of four elephants standing on a giant space-traveling turtle? Thats the thing thats always struck me about the discworld books, they're believable but in a twisted way. I think Pratchetts even said something to this end himself. Unlike other fantasy novels they dont start from a normal place and then pile on weirdness, they start from a weird place and work backwords towards normality. You get Discworld by taking a premise like middle earth and asking all the obvious questions like "So why do Trolls turn to stone in sunlight?" and "Why are vampires always so thick?". Everything on the Discworld has to make sense in some internal way, he even came up with a reason for why you can have timezones on a flat planet.
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Aug 20, 2007 12:29
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Jeedan posted:Thats the thing thats always struck me about the discworld books, they're believable but in a twisted way. I think Pratchetts even said something to this end himself. Unlike other fantasy novels they dont start from a normal place and then pile on weirdness, they start from a weird place and work backwords towards normality. You get Discworld by taking a premise like middle earth and asking all the obvious questions like "So why do Trolls turn to stone in sunlight?" and "Why are vampires always so thick?". Everything on the Discworld has to make sense in some internal way, he even came up with a reason for why you can have timezones on a flat planet. That's one of the things I've always enjoyed about the series. It's been said before in the comment about "Some jerk with a heart of gold who invents a modern [something or rather]" but, I enjoyed seeing how the Discworld evolves and adapts to relatively new things like like c-mail and increased travel to places like the Counterweight Continent.
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Aug 20, 2007 14:31
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Yay Prachett Thread. I have the Hogsfather DVD but it's Region 2. drat my american DVD player, I can't watch it. That said... What's this about someone playing Rincewind? Is there another adaptation in the works? I've read the scrip for Hogsfather and seen the production photos, so I know it's pretty darn faithful.
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Aug 20, 2007 19:09
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ConConHead posted:Yay Prachett Thread. can you watch it on your computer? The adaptation is for the colour of magic
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Aug 20, 2007 23:47
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I think that the books reached a zenith on humour, but continue to rise in actual literary quality with occasional bumps and dips. For example, I think Soul Music and Hogfather are much funnier than both Color of Magic and later books like Night Watch, but Night Watch is a better book overall. Going Postal and The Truth were both funny and good books aside. Monstrous Regiment I disliked. It felt forced and "angry" somehow, as if he didn't enjoy writing it or like any of the characters. I thought that it might be a "beginning of the end" book that signified a decline in quality, but he was back on form later.
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Aug 21, 2007 02:42
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after some rescent re-reading, I've come to the conclusion that while pratchetts adult books are great, some of his YA novels are quite literally PERFECT. The Nome trilogy and Only you can save Mankind have such an amazing amount of subtle social commentry, perfectly judged character interactions and simple wisdom, but never become preachy or judjemental. They're also quite unusual in that they don't have villains, not really. it's all just people finding them selves in situations and muddling through as best they can. So the Humans in Diggers, for example, aren't evil, even though they're a terrible threat, because they're just doing what people do, re opening an old quarry. And in only you can save mankind (one of the best commentaries on war that I've read), it's all just a game. I also really liked the central conceit of Monstrous Regiment, reminded me of Lets Go To Golgotha in some ways (everyone has the same secret but they keep it from one another, not knowing they share it)
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Aug 21, 2007 10:04
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I like Pratchett's YA stuff. I've always really enjoyed the Tiffany Aching series, especially the last one where we got to see more of Nanny Ogg. Speaking of which, has anyone heard anything about the proposed Wee Free Men movie? Last I heard Sam Raimi was going to direct it and it was slotted for release in 2008, but I haven't heard anything since. I'll go ahead and echo what many others have said already, and hope for a Watch movie in the future. Considering that Hogfather was enough of a success to warrent a Rincewind movie, maybe it'll progress to a Watch movie. I can dream. And I am looking forward to the next movie, as Rincewind has a special place in my heart. I just hope they don't screw it up.
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Aug 21, 2007 16:11
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I have never read Pratchett, though I just picked up Good Omens which was co-authored by him with Neil Gaiman who I adore. Has anyone else read this, is it a good read? I am hoping to be able to spare some free time during my daunting fall semester to get the book read, but I haven't had the chance to start yet.
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Aug 21, 2007 17:13
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It is very good.
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Aug 21, 2007 17:14
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Lucindawst posted:I have never read Pratchett, though I just picked up Good Omens which was co-authored by him with Neil Gaiman who I adore. Has anyone else read this, is it a good read? I am hoping to be able to spare some free time during my daunting fall semester to get the book read, but I haven't had the chance to start yet. It's great. Both authors manage to mix their styles pretty well.
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Aug 21, 2007 17:20
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ConfusedUs posted:It's great. Both authors manage to mix their styles pretty well. I've always wondered how authors do that. Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett, Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle... Do they just sit in front of the same computer and elbow each other continually for months? Also, Good Omens is fantastic. I absolutely loved the part where they're getting ready to fight The Father. Keshik fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Aug 21, 2007 |
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Aug 21, 2007 18:28
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Talking of characters dying... I think Granny Weatherwax's time may be coming soon. There have been a few hints, especially in the Tiffany Aching books, that she is starting to feel like an old woman, despite the fact that, well, she's Granny Weatherwax.
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Aug 22, 2007 00:38
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All I really have to say about the Vetinari matter is that he could write a book that consists of nothing but two hundred and fifty pages of Vimes and Vetinari discussing the weather and I would girlishly squeal myself to death.
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Aug 22, 2007 06:51
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I HAVE ALL OF TERRY PRATCHETT'S DISCWORLD BOOKS. THE CHARACTERS ARE UNIQUE AND ONE TALKS LIKE THIS. I LOOK FORWARD TO FINDING DEATH REFERENCES IN EVERY BOOK. The Susan arc in Thief of Time threw me for a loop, though, although I rather did like the overly ample descriptions of how teacher-ly she was  My god, the Wee Free Men drove me batty with their bastardized Scottish...
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Aug 22, 2007 09:08
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In Jingo did anyone else think he was doing Lovecraft (when the island first appears and he is talking about weird non-human statues or something, it has been a while) only to be disappointed? Not that the book is anything less than great. I think it is the first one where we learn that Vimes' butler Willikins is secretly hard as gently caress. He is my favourite cameo type character - I love him in Thud after the dwarfs break in to Vimes' cellar when he is all "I regret to say I was forced to deal somewhat strictly with them. I fear one might be dead"
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Aug 22, 2007 19:19
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NastyPBears posted:In Jingo did anyone else think he was doing Lovecraft (when the island first appears and he is talking about weird non-human statues or something, it has been a while) only to be disappointed? Oh god yes, I forgot about Willikins. Now he's one bad rear end gangsta (literally!) in my book.
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Aug 23, 2007 04:57
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NastyPBears posted:Not that the book is anything less than great. I think it is the first one where we learn that Vimes' butler Willikins is secretly hard as gently caress. He is my favourite cameo type character - I love him in Thud after the dwarfs break in to Vimes' cellar when he is all "I regret to say I was forced to deal somewhat strictly with them. I fear one might be dead" "The ones in the cellar had an apparatus for projecting fire, sir." ... "I apprised myself of its use, sir, and tested my understanding by firing it down the tunnel they had arrived by until it ran out of igniferous juice, sir. Just in case there were more. It is for this reason, I suspect, that the shrubbery at Number Five is on fire."
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Aug 23, 2007 05:38
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The only Pratchett I've read is Mort. I chose that specifically because of the personification of Death. I've always loved when people use Death as a main character. On that subject, aside from Pratchett's work, does anyone know of any authors who use Death as the protagonist?
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Aug 23, 2007 06:11
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Neil Gaiman has used Death as a character in some of the comics he's written. He's also writing/directing a movie staring the same character. And if you liked Mort I suggest checking out Reaper Man because it's probably one of the best Death books. edit: The more I think on it, the more I realize that the Discworld books are probably the most influential thing I've read when it comes to my thoughts on religion and death and I don't know if that's a good thing or not.
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Aug 23, 2007 06:42
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I am half-way through reading Good Omens and can already tell that Terry Pratchett is going to keep me busy for a good long while.
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Aug 23, 2007 09:56
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NastyPBears posted:In Jingo did anyone else think he was doing Lovecraft (when the island first appears and he is talking about weird non-human statues or something, it has been a while) only to be disappointed? I didn't realize it was supposed to be Lovecraftian until much, much later (doh) but there was just too much else going on in that book for it to possibly fit. There is a much clearer take on Lovecraft in, I believe, The Colour of Magic. hlazlo posted:The only Pratchett I've read is Mort. I chose that specifically because of the personification of Death. I've always loved when people use Death as a main character. On that subject, aside from Pratchett's work, does anyone know of any authors who use Death as the protagonist? As someone else mentioned, Neil Gaiman's Sandman series has Death as a character, though she couldn't possibly be any further removed from Pratchett's death (which incidentally is inspired, like so many other Grim Reapers, from Ingmar Bergman's The Seventh Seal). I haven't read it so I'm not commenting on quality, but Piers Anthony features Death in his 'Incarnations of Immortality' series. In TV and film, there's the show Dead Like Me and the film Meet Joe Black. Again, I haven't seen either of these so if they suck don't blame me for recommending them. On the other hand, I will heartily recommend the Joe Estevez film Soultaker, as long as you get the MST3k version 
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Aug 23, 2007 13:23
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I need to get back into discworld. I got soured on Moving Pictures by the Flintstonish shoehorning going on with the Holywood stuff. Really, imps painting on the film? Guh. I'm reading them in whatever order they're listed backwards in, in the front. So I guess Reaper Man is next up.
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Aug 23, 2007 17:22
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:edit: The more I think on it, the more I realize that the Discworld books are probably the most influential thing I've read when it comes to my thoughts on religion and death and I don't know if that's a good thing or not. I'm with you. Pratchett manages to combine a cynical world view with incredible humor, and there is a surprising amount of complexity hidden beneath the surface. Pratchett manages to say in a few paragraphs what others take an entire humorless manifesto to explain. I think a big part of the draw for me isn't just the humor - it is the whole philosophy of the author. He mocks people mercilessly but he also seems to really like them. All that said, I wish he'd take a little more time so that we get fewer Monstrous Regiments and more Small Gods.
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Aug 23, 2007 19:20
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