Long Term Investing & Retirement: The second best time is now

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moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

80k posted:

At the end of 2007, a certain individual on this forum challenged me with a bunch of managed funds that he expected to continue to outperform its category.

Oh my goodness, I had wondered where the hell he had gone after bragging so much about outperforming the market.

# ¿ Jan 15, 2010 18:13

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# ¿ May 4, 2024 02:15

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Evil SpongeBob posted:

You guys still on each other?

ESB, where have you been! I was just rereading your personal finance thread in the archives to help with a new beginners thread. There were some crazy fights over passive/active investing in there.

# ¿ Jan 16, 2010 07:18

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Evil SpongeBob posted:

(And I had two megathreads in there... )

Well, aren't you SPECIAL :3:

You and 80k are the reason I opened up a Roth and started investing for retirement, so I owe you a great deal of thanks (and also some thousands of dollars of interest when I retire).

# ¿ Jan 17, 2010 19:03

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Not fair: 80k has too kind of a heart, I don't think he could troll BFC if someone put a gun to his head. Here's my offer:

- Avatar changes for you two until I retire
- You can troll me anytime you want :wink:

- Come visit San Diego and I'll buy you drinks until you start talking about investing in gold bars

# ¿ Jan 18, 2010 16:20

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Giant Isopod posted:

My question is about how to actually open an IRA, or any other account really. I have never dealt with any financial institutions not in person. Is it as simple as calling Vanguard and saying "Hi, I want to open an IRA, please tell me some options"? What information do I need on hand?

You can do this online. https://personal.vanguard.com/us/whatweoffer/ira
It's been a while, but I think all you need is your bank account information, and you might have to send them a physical letter or something, but the online process will walk you through all of that. It's pretty darn simple, the hardest thing you will have to do is pick a fund (I suggest just starting with one of their Target Retirement funds until you do more research).

edit: beaten! :argh:

# ¿ Aug 4, 2010 19:07

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

abagofcheetos posted:

The only problem is now that bonds look like they are a bubble I don't really have options other than equities (no thx) or money market. Oh well.

Have you read the Vanguard article and research paper about how even if it is a bubble, it's not really a big deal if you're planning on holding onto bonds long-term? http://www.vanguard.com/pdf/icrrol.pdf

It's interesting, and also gives a historical perspective from different times when rates rose steeply and what happened to bond investments in subsequent years.

# ¿ Aug 12, 2010 23:25

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Gonktastic posted:

What should I look for in a personal IRA? I'd like to have an individual one that I can fund, since I don't know what the future holds in terms of employer offered ones. I am also very lucky in that I have access to NavyFederal Credit Union as well as USAA, who I've always found offer far better rates than your traditional banks and investment places.

You could check out those places, but I've found Vanguard to be very easy to work with, and their expense ratios are lower than anywhere I've seen. Try one, and if you don't like the company you can always switch. Just remember that contributions to a Roth need to be from income you earned for that year.

plustwobonus: I wouldn't try to actively manage any of your retirement savings until you have enough time and energy to dedicate to doing research. If you really want to, be sure it's a small percent of your portfolio. What are the expense ratios on the two funds? The target retirement funds will also often have bonds included and will probably get you a bit of international exposure as well (I don't know USAA's funds very well so you'll need to check this out). I'd be hesitant about being all growth though.

# ¿ Aug 14, 2010 04:54

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Yeah, but if you invest in a target retirement fund, it'll automatically rebalance to shift towards bonds as you get older. Those expense ratios are okay, probably better than average, but Vanguard's will be lower - their target retirement 2050 fund is at .20% (I don't think anybody can beat Vanguard in this regard). If you're going to open a new account anyway, I would just go with Vanguard as long as you're able to put in the minimum $3k.

# ¿ Aug 16, 2010 23:58

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Vanguard is, as far as I know, the only mutual fund company that is owned entirely by its funds - the profits of the whole Vanguard group are redistributed back to the funds, so the expense ratios are significantly lower than they would be for a private company or a publicly traded company.

From wikipedia: "Vanguard is unusual among mutual-fund companies since it is owned by the funds themselves. In this structure, each fund contributes a set amount of capital towards shared management, marketing, and distribution services. The company says that this structure better orients management towards shareholder interests.[2] Other mutual-fund sponsors are expected simultaneously to make a profit for their outside owners and provide the most cost-effective service to funds for their shareholders."

# ¿ Aug 18, 2010 19:55

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Here is a good reason: when the market rebounds, you will completely miss it if your money is in cash, so your idea is the opposite of what you should do. Here is another good reason: you should not change your investment strategy based on what you think the market will or will not do since good investment strategies don't rely on market timing. Here is another good reason: you are probably not 70 years old so your retirement funds shouldn't be in cash.

If you're risk averse, why do you have your Roth in 100% stocks? :psyduck:

# ¿ Aug 28, 2010 14:52

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Stop following market trends, they will only mess up your brain. As far as that portfolio goes, the one thing I'd say is you probably don't want to break it up that much, especially if you don't have enough to make the Vanguard minimums for every single fund (that breakdown would require you to have about $53k in your portfolio if the minimums are $3k, which you might have already, but lots of young people don't). You could probably just hold three funds - total stock, total bond, and international - and be okay.

# ¿ Aug 28, 2010 18:14

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Some people like to be really hands-on with their portfolio, and micromanaging your allocation might squeeze out a fraction of a percent more in the long run. However, it's much much more important to just save regularly and be emotionally distanced from your portfolio, and dicking around with allocations on that level usually leads to people:
a) thinking they know more than they do and ending up reallocating things stupidly
b) becoming too attached to market performance

Certainly, if you have the time and energy (and the minimum amount in your portfolio), you can slice things up to a finer degree and get a bit better performance. However, for most people it's just not worth it and I wouldn't recommend it unless you LOVE learning about all that stuff.

# ¿ Aug 29, 2010 16:01

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

bam thwok posted:

Like I said, the Roth IRA I intend to open will be a substitute for funds diverted to from my 401k, meaning I'll be making bi-monthly investments the first Tuesday after each paycheck. Based on the link you sent me, you can't really beat the $4 per trade they offer, especially since I'm not really interested in real-time trades at all (for my Roth, at least), and I'll almost exclusively be buying mutual funds and ETFs.

I don't understand why you don't go with Vanguard for this, since it charges nothing for automatic investments as long as you meet the minimum deposit and sign up for online banking. I mean, your bi-monthly investment is going to be $200, so you're immediately paying a 2% fee each time, which is pretty nuts. Am I missing something here?

# ¿ Sep 16, 2010 16:08

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

For saving in the short-term (5-10 years), you could check out one of the core funds (https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/vanguard/core). A total bond index fund or their short term investment grade bond fund wouldn't be a bad choice for that timeline. If you want something REALLY safe, check out an online savings bank like SmartyPig or the like - a bit higher interest than checking accounts (1.75% atm) and 100% safe.

nnnotime, I think your advice is good if she wants to continue investing for retirement, but for 5-10 years out (I'm assuming this is for a house down payment or something similar) she should stick to safer holdings than equities.

# ¿ Nov 21, 2010 21:35

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

velocross posted:

I do like the idea of the Target Retirement funds, so could I use that (already percentage split for funds/bonds) as a single aggressive fund? Just looking to keep it simple right now, but seems more I learn and read the more I feel overwhelmed. Thanks in advance, you guys are awesome.

Don't worry too much about splitting hairs right now. The most important thing you can do while you're young is START, so don't be scared away from investing just because you don't have the perfect mix right away. A target retirement fund is a great place to begin, and in a year or so you can reevaluate and switch into different funds if you want to based on your reading and research. If you want to be a bit more aggressive (i.e. a more stock-heavy portfolio), just pick a later target retirement fund date. 2050 should be fine for you.

Are you planning on putting this into a Roth IRA?

# ¿ Feb 14, 2011 00:54

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Lyon posted:

Which book from the OP would be the best in regards to teaching me about the different vehicles for short, medium, and long term investing? I want to see learn what the different options are and compare based around liquidity, risk, etc.

I would say the Four Pillars of Investing. It's a great beginner's book.

Minimum holding times for funds will depend on the company you're with but it should be clear in the fund summary.

# ¿ Feb 18, 2011 20:36

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Fuschia tude posted:

CDs are as protected as savings accounts, no problem there if you don't mind eating X months of interest if you need to sell, or chaining them so that's less of an issue.

Some dude just asked about this and it looks like most CD rates right now are less than SmartyPig's APR (right now at 1.35%). I don't think you'll get better than that with total security.

# ¿ Feb 23, 2011 23:24

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Just start with their Target Retirement 2050 fund for now. Later on, if you decide you want to play more of an active role in your asset allocation, you can always move the money around.

# ¿ Feb 27, 2011 02:00

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

haximus prime posted:

Hey guys. I'm 18 and just came into a bit of money. I'd like to start a Roth. I'm just concerned that it's too "early"?

It's never too early. However, I believe you can only put the money into a roth if it's money you earned as income.

# ¿ Mar 4, 2011 04:31

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

KennyG posted:

I'm inclined to go with Vanguard but I'd like to check as many of the reasonable options as there are. Am I missing anyone worth looking at?

Glad to hear you got her out of that lovely situation. I don't have anything to add except I'm glad you're doing your research and even if you just plonk all of her cash in an index fund at Vanguard you're going to be doing a thousand times better than before.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2011 06:59

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Quid posted:

I was thinking, SPTN 500 INDEX INV 30%, SPTN EXT MKT IDX INV 40%, FID DIVERSIFD INTL 10%, FID REAL ESTATE INVS 15%, FID US BD INDEX 5%. Basically I'm wondering if this is an ok contribution setup? Horrible? Going to leave me penniless? I don't really know what I'm doing and I picked my percentages mostly on "That average annual return seems good".

Well, firstly, you don't want to really take into consideration previous returns when picking funds, but it looks like you've got your equities divvied up pretty well. You're really equity heavy with only 5% bonds. That's a pretty extreme way to invest - would you be ok if another recession hits and eats up half of your investment? It's ok to be almost all stocks if you're sure you can weather the ride if things get hairy, and if you have a long investment horizon... just as long as you know what you're getting into. A more conservative allocation would probably have around 25% bonds for someone in their 20s (assuming you're average goon age).

# ¿ Mar 24, 2011 02:04

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

skystream92 posted:

I have heard different tidbits of advice where people advocate maxing out a Roth IRA next, or to go with high-risk stock due to my age.

A Roth IRA is a good idea for both of you, but you can choose whatever investments you want to go into your Roth. Think of your Roth and 401k as different baskets, but you can pick any kind of investments to go into each of your baskets - stocks, bonds, whatever. The type of investments you choose will depend on how long you're planning on keeping them invested for - if it's retirement, you should probably invest more heavily in stocks; if it's for a house downpayment in a few years, you should stick with less risky investments. I would recommend picking up The Four Pillars of Investing and The Intelligent Asset Allocator - they are both good beginner books and will give you a decent foundation without being as dense as Graham

What timeline are you looking at for investing? How many years before you will want to touch this money again? Also, if you have different options to choose from in your 401k, you can post them here to get feedback (I know that's not your question, but sometimes people have their 401ks in really crappy funds or weird allocations). The main thing is to get started soon, so if you don't want to do a lot of research or be very involved in your investment selection, just starting a Roth IRA is good - most companies offer "target retirement" funds where you just pick the year you want to retire in and they do all the allocation for you. You can always change your investments later once you read up on things, but just by starting to invest this young, you're in a good position.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2011 19:56

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

No, you can take out money from a Roth since the money you put in is after tax, but it's not really necessary to put the money into an IRA if you're not saving for the long term - I don't think you're allowed to withdraw any gains you make, just how much you put in initially (like if you put in $1k and it goes up, you would still only be able to take out $1k). Also, if you're saving for the near future, you don't want to be investing in things with much risk at all. There are some "income funds" at Vanguard you could look at, or if you want to stay conservative just put the cash into a savings account like SmartyPig where your return is guaranteed (right now at 1.35%). There aren't a lot of good short-term options these days for passive cash flow since interest rates are so low.

moana fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Mar 24, 2011

# ¿ Mar 24, 2011 20:16

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Progression Please posted:

It feels like I am taking a risk when choosing these and I need to find some modest ones to put my money into that are available through USAA. Can I get guidance on this?

You should not be putting money into "modest" funds if that money is for your retirement and you are 21. It's dumb - your timeline is long, and you're going to need "riskier" investments in your portfolio if you want it to do well. If you're not able or don't desire to learn more about asset allocation right now, pick the 2050 retirement fund and wash your hands of it. Set up an automatic contribution and don't even look at a stock ticker for the next year.

The most important thing you will ever do in your investing career is to start.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2011 19:21

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Murgos posted:

So, since May 2nd VT and VTI (Vanguard's Total World Market ETF and Total US Market ETF) are both trending downward pretty steadily.

I know you shouldn't try and time the market but isn't that a pretty strong indicator to go to cash (or bonds or something) for a month or so or until they establish an uptrend?

Rather, you should be picking up more stock at cheaper prices (making sure you keep cash in reserve to pick up even more stock at even cheaper prices if it continues downhill). If you're following a relatively passive investment strategy, you shouldn't even be looking at market trends if they tempt you to change what you're doing. Or you can take a few thousand out of your real investments and play the stock market to relieve your itch to care about what stocks do from month to month or day to day.

"Steadily" isn't a word that applies to the stock market.

# ¿ May 23, 2011 18:37

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Beer4TheBeerGod posted:

Interesting. I'm already contributing a huge amount to my TSP so I figure I can afford a bit more risk. How do you decide what to invest in?

It depends on what you'll be using the money for, since the time horizon for different goals will change how risky you want the investments to be. The longer the time horizon, the more risky you can go (almost all stocks). The shorter the time horizon, the more safe you want your investments (bonds). If you need the money to be super safe, you can invest in CDs or in savings accounts with guaranteed interest (although right now the interest rates are super low). Are you using your IRA for the same purpose as your TSP, or do you have a different goal in mind for that money?

# ¿ Jun 1, 2011 02:08

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

SeaWolf posted:

Does this seem like a reasonable strategy? Or should I not play around like that and stick with one path going with the target fund or diversify on my own to my own liking?

It sounds like it would be good to stick everything in the Target fund at first, then when you have enough to meet the minimums for the few different funds, move them into there. If you want to keep the target fund as a backup, that's fine - I think once you read a bit more and get more comfortable with investing concepts, you won't need a backup anymore. I getcha on the neurosis but it sounds like whichever plan you choose, it will end up okay. Congrats on starting to learn about investing! and don't hesitate to ask any questions here or in the newbie thread, that's what we're here for

# ¿ Jun 3, 2011 22:03

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

spf3million posted:

Yep, rolling 365. If you are gone from Nov 1, 2011 to Nov 1, 2012, you get 2/12*$92k exclusion for 2011 and 10/12*$92k for 2012.

Well heck, I didn't realize it was prorated like that. Thanks for the info. Do you mind me asking how much it cost you to get your taxes done through a pro?

# ¿ Jun 4, 2011 15:05

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Oneiric posted:

One thing to keep in mind as well, is that you are till taxed at the rate prior to the exclusion less what you can shelter.

Yep, I'm reading up on all these rules now. I was planning on working with furushotakeru next year since our taxes will be a bit more complicated, but I like knowing as much as I can anyway beforehand :shobon:

# ¿ Jun 4, 2011 22:41

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Crazak P posted:

State Street Equity 500 Index - 0.70

This one since it's the lowest fee and you're going to want something close to an index fund anyway for retirement savings. Increase the bond holdings in your Roth to make everything match closer to your desired allocation (maybe switch to a Target Fund that's much sooner like 2030?). If you need help figuring out the numbers for everything, feel free to PM me or post them here.

# ¿ Jun 10, 2011 16:56

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

wanderlost posted:

This is my nest egg, so nothing too risky, but I hate seeing it evaporate away.

If this is your "nest egg" for retirement, you're going to need to accept risk in order to have any chance of seeing your investment grow. It's as simple as that. If you're planning on pulling this money out soon, you will have to accept a lower return in exchange for keeping your capital safe, but you shouldn't be pulling money out of your retirement savings. SmartyPig or ING are decent options if you just want a savings account.

# ¿ Jun 11, 2011 05:54

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Pinkied_Brain posted:

I feel like there are whole teams working on coming up with the best fund composition, how can I have a better knowledge of the markets to make a better decision?

Well, you can argue that there are teams working on all kinds of different funds, and some of them are just ridiculously terrible (see: 99% of actively managed funds). If you agree with the philosophy of a fund and are aware of the fees involved, then you're right that there's no big reason to try and do better. Some people here believe the Target Retirement funds are too risky (should have more bonds) and some who believe that they are too conservative (should have more stocks). Just being aware of your risk capacity should be enough to choose between TR funds. Of course some people will want to try and squeeze some extra blood out of the stone by being very vigilant about slicing, dicing, and rebalancing their allocations, but it's my opinion that you can do almost as good as the most informed investor simply by sticking with low-cost index funds (or TR funds comprised of index funds) and rebalancing every year or so.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2011 22:02

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Crazak P posted:

What numbers do you need to help me balance this?

Like gvibes said, the totals for each account. If you don't feel comfortable posting the actual numbers, you can give them as percentages. The problem with that is some funds have minimums, so our advice would depend on whether or not you would be able to make the minimums with those funds.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2011 22:07

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

If you are working (have income that can be invested), start a Roth IRA and max it out for this year - I believe that's $5k, but you'll need $5k of income to be able to invest that much. Many people recommended Vanguard as a good investment company; just click on the question mark under my av since I'm certain I've explained why three times or so before in this thread. If you have the time to do the reading, pick up some of the investment books linked in this thread and the Newbie thread to figure out what you want your asset allocation to be. If you have no time or inclination, just park it in a Target Retirement fund for like 2050 or something.

If I may ask, what kind of grad school are you going to? That's a shitton of money you're spending.

# ¿ Jul 21, 2011 07:46

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

That seems fine - Spartan International is very highly weighted compared to international weightings of most target retirement funds (Vanguard's is only 27% international). I personally like a high international percentage, but you have to decide whether you want to be more domestically weighted or not.

# ¿ Aug 9, 2011 06:06

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

I used a money market fund back but nowadays the returns for everything are so low you might as well just put it in a high yield savings account. Assuming your timetable is short (like, less than 5 years), you don't want to be doing anything risky with the money. I would just stick it in SmartyPig or one of those other savings accounts. I would avoid CDs just in case you want to take the money out a bit early, otherwise you might end up getting penalized for it.

# ¿ Aug 14, 2011 16:57

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

80k posted:

Book recommendation time... for somewhat more advanced reading, Expected Returns: An Investor's Guide to Harvesting Market Rewards by Antti Ilmanen is a phenomenal book. I'm not quite finished with it (it is long) but it could be the best book on investing I have read. In fact, I can't think of a more important book. Far too many people make rash assumptions on risk and expected performance, without being familiar with the academic literature.

Thanks for this rec, this is going on my Christmas wish list. Hopefully I can make it through the advanced stuff, I'd love to learn more about the academic theories behind everything.

# ¿ Aug 26, 2011 19:04

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

Niwrad posted:

My biggest concern right now would be that we're entering a lost decade or two with minor growth in stocks

And if you keep trying to predict the future, your biggest concern in one decade might be that you kept all of your money in bonds during the Post-2012 Boom. Point being, you want to construct a portfolio that you're comfortable with no matter what happens in the future.

# ¿ Sep 22, 2011 03:03

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

smurph98gt posted:

I'm just wondering if it's sound investment strategy at this point to continue to leave it in my aggressive growth model, scoop up funds at a lower price, or rebalance it completely into something much more stable for the meantime, like a conservative model, and move it back into aggressive model once things start picking up again?

There are a few problems here:
1. You have so many funds that presumably overlap in quite a few places that it's nearly impossible to figure out what your allocation is. By that I mean simple stock/bond, domestic/international. Do you have a good way to track this kind of basic stuff?
2. You describe it as "set it and forget it" but then you're tracking quarterly growth on something you won't be touching for decades, and also trying to time the market. Hrmm?
3. You're trying to time the market.
4. You're freaking out because of the drop and so now you want to move into a "stable/conservative" model, which is the worst idea ever since it relies on you timing the market accurately which, even if you did, you're doing it backwards. Buy high, sell low? This makes no sense.
5. It sounds like you got sold on a "growth model" by HR which sounds great and all but you probably have no idea what is actually in your portfolio.
6. It looks like you have no bonds in your portfolio unless that's what the capital appreciation whatever the hell it's called is, I'm not looking it up.

My advice is to forget about touching your portfolio for now, but start reading. In a month or so, decide on what your stock/bond and domestic/international ratios should be, and pick a few funds with the lowest expense ratios that will get you to those ratios to switch your money into. Like:

40% S&P 500 index for domestic stocks
40% International fund for international stocks
20% Bond index fund for bonds

Don't get all fancy pants about it unless you need to. Right now the pants are way too fancy and you've got pockets you don't know about and sequins glued onto your rear end.

# ¿ Oct 7, 2011 16:48

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# ¿ May 4, 2024 02:15

moana: Jun 18, 2005; one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web

balancedbias posted:

The one other thing that may swing home state funds is the potential "prepaid tuition plans." Usually those are awesome if your state has one because you can lock in the value of your contributions (kind of like buying a share of the education time, not just the final dollar amount regardless of inflation).

Be careful about this, I just read an article about prepaid plans defaulting: http://www.businessinsider.com/prepaid-college-plans-may-deliver-less-than-they-promised-2011-10

quote:

On the surface, prepaid plans offer greater peace of mind than savings plans, because they come with a �guarantee� that investments will keep up with rising costs. However, only a handful of states, including Florida, Massachusetts, Mississippi and Washington, have actually put the full faith and credit of their state treasuries behind their prepaid 529 offerings, pledging to make up the difference if the plans fall short of their obligations. Texas and the Private 529 Plan have created a guarantee in a different way, by making participating schools promise to accept the prepaid credits regardless of future tuition increases.
For account owners in the other prepaid plans, success depends mainly on the performance of the plans� portfolios compared to the rate of tuition increases; any government backstop depends upon the future goodwill of legislators.

# ¿ Oct 19, 2011 16:40

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Long Term Investing & Retirement: The second best time is now

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