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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > Enterprise Storage Megathread: Why is my NAS a SAN?
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Catch 22
Dec 1, 2003
Damn it, Damn it, Damn it!

ddavis posted:

I inherited a Dell AX100 that's a bit long in the tooth. It hosts our Exchange database, SQL database, file shares, and some MS .vhds.

I'm looking to replace this soon and go full tilt with a few VMware servers to virtualize our entire environment.
My question is: one of the key benefits of virtualization (at least from my perspective) is that it divorces the server from the underlying hardware. Servers become pretty generic and interchangeable. Why then isn't it common to follow this same line of thinking and run a SAN on commodity hardware? You'd get all the benefits of an enterprise SAN without the proprietary software. Then down the road when you need to replace something that's no longer supported, it's trivial. Or upgrading becomes much cheaper because you can easily embrace whatever disk interface gives best performance/cost ratio. Does it mainly have to do with support contracts? Or am I missing some big picture aspect?

Something like Openfiler, FreeNAS or even this article seem like viable solutions since iSCSI and NAS are both supported in VMware.
There are so many more reasons, but for you and what you just asked, Performance.
OpenFiler and NAS will not cut it unless you are only virtualizing 5 or so servers with little I/O (500ish/ps) I had a 4 disk NAS running RAID 5, with about a 100 user load, running a blackberry server and print server. I added another VM and nearly brought down the "network". If this was on one of the other departments, poo poo would have hit the fan. If you want to do SAN/virtualizing , do it right.
As I say this I am moving something off that NAS right now, and its tossed up a I/O error 4 times. On the 5 time, the VM pulled down, and I am moving it to one of my SANs.

Besides, SANs are pretty cheap nowadays depending on features and size, and if you need gobs of space your company should be able to shell out something.

edit: you know I don't want to discourage you, so I will say, it can be done and work, but I love the fact that I can toss VM after VM to my SAN and not have to worry about the load I am putting on it for awhile.

Catch 22 fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Dec 13, 2008

* # ¿ Dec 13, 2008 06:37
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# ¿ May 12, 2024 18:52
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Catch 22
Dec 1, 2003
Damn it, Damn it, Damn it!

ddavis posted:

Ok, this all makes sense. Thanks for the responses.
I was thinking I'd replace the AX100 with a AX4-5F and then use the AX100 offsite with some of our older servers for a DR hotsite.

But I'm not positive a SAN is the way to go. I've read things that proclaim speed on a NAS is just as good if not better. And something like the PowerVault NF500 or NF600 seem really cheap. Are the pluses for SANs things like snapshots and replication?

AX4 is host based replication, just FYI

* # ¿ Dec 15, 2008 21:59
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Catch 22
Dec 1, 2003
Damn it, Damn it, Damn it!

rage-saq posted:

always always hire a consultant to come out and do the design/config work for you, its not free but at least it will be right and you will have significant recourse if they screw up the config.
EMC came right out, sat down, gave options, and ran performance metrics for a week, and worked with my VAR to ensure I got what we wanted/needed, and checked the final quote before the order after I told my VAR to order.

This was totally free, and not even on a big order.

This is another reason I love EMC.

* # ¿ Jan 30, 2009 23:04
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Catch 22
Dec 1, 2003
Damn it, Damn it, Damn it!

bmoyles posted:

100k might not get you much SAN from Pillar...
I'd recommend checking out Compellent, too, but again, 100k is going to be a somewhat small SAN.
What?!? Please give your definition on "Small SAN"?

* # ¿ Feb 4, 2009 15:34
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Catch 22
Dec 1, 2003
Damn it, Damn it, Damn it!

bmoyles posted:

I've got a quote from Compellent on a clustered solution that pushed 170k for about 8TB raw.
Still seams high with clustering (assuming you mean 2 Mirrored SANs) and full SAS.

* # ¿ Feb 4, 2009 20:04
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Catch 22
Dec 1, 2003
Damn it, Damn it, Damn it!

bmoyles posted:

Nope. Clustered heads. To be completely fair, this might be close to list as I asked for ballpark pricing, so after discount it would've been somewhat cheaper, but still in that same ballpark. To add a set of tier 3 storage (750G disks, same aggregate capacity) would've added another 40k onto the cost.
750G drives Sounds like SATA drives. Now your IO and fabric needs might push you to another SAN, but I just pulled a EMC, dual active/active heads, iSCSI, and 10TB RAW (16x SAS 148GB 1500RPM and 8x SATA 1TB mix in two shelf/bricks) with some software options for <40K.


EDIT: looked again at the final: 25K, and I had them toss on the 3rd year of warranty for free

Catch 22 fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Feb 5, 2009

* # ¿ Feb 5, 2009 01:19
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Catch 22
Dec 1, 2003
Damn it, Damn it, Damn it!

Mierdaan posted:

Performance question.

I've got an ESXi server with a VMFS LUN on our Netapp FAS2020. I need to create a file server VM which needs to serve up two shares, 500G each. I can't cram all of this inside the VMFS LUN because the A-SIS engine on the FAS2020 won't run against a volume larger than 500G, so I'm stuck separating at least the shares out in some way. Will I see any performance benefit by creating these as VMDKs in additional VMFS LUNs, or by just hooking the Server 2008 VM directly (ISCSi) to the LUNs and letting it format them with NTFS? What's best practice here?

Thanks storage goons.

I have mine setup with the first VMDK as the boot and OS drive, then I have a RDM to the LUN from the host. I think this performs better than the iSCSI initiator pulling from the guest, but I don't have metrics to prove that.

* # ¿ Mar 3, 2009 17:26
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Catch 22
Dec 1, 2003
Damn it, Damn it, Damn it!

1000101 posted:

Bumping this in the hopes that some EMC guys can tell me about RecoveryPoint and how it can give me application consistent replication/handles quiescing of snapshots.

Are you still watching?
You would get an app consistent snap first (using SnapView to manage and set this up) then RecoverPoint replicates at the blocklevel (clones) the LUN. Flatfiles would not need the snap first.

Edit: I also just shot off a email to my EMC guys to make sure there is not another way with the new SE version.

Catch 22 fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Mar 18, 2009

* # ¿ Mar 18, 2009 15:46
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Catch 22
Dec 1, 2003
Damn it, Damn it, Damn it!

InferiorWang posted:

I didn't realize that I had email turned off. I turned it on. No PM because I'm a cheap bastard who never purchased it. :)

Thanks!
I can help you cut some costs from EMC if you are looking at others besides Lefthand, if I understand what your needs are.

* # ¿ Mar 18, 2009 15:50
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Catch 22
Dec 1, 2003
Damn it, Damn it, Damn it!

H110Hawk posted:

Get a full retail quote from them for "the right way", have them itemize costs as much as they can claiming government red tape. Then, generate quote for what you actually want, cut price 50%, and make up a PO. Call them up and send them your proposal and tell them it's this or EMC. See what happens. You generally won't be able to cut the service contract by nearly 50%, and I assume this is required by your school policy.

If they still balk, remind them that you have to keep a service contract on the device for 3? 5? years due to that same government red tape. Don't be afraid to lie outright to them, their sales guys will do the same to you.

You can also save by doing the install yourself (if they are charging for it) and if you get the Manufacture behind you they can discount the Vendors quote passing savings to you. In my case I got a discount and a extra warranty year for nothing. Call Lefthand and talk with them. It can pay off.

* # ¿ Mar 18, 2009 17:20
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# ¿ May 12, 2024 18:52
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Catch 22
Dec 1, 2003
Damn it, Damn it, Damn it!

Mierdaan posted:

Check out my post history in this thread if you want to see why you shouldn't do this.

Ha, yes. I remember watching that unfold.

Mierdaan posted:

Well, we've been hosed.
<stuff>

rage-saq posted:

Reason number 5234634 to not deal with those big fullfilment warehouses like CDW, PC-Mall etc for configs.

I used CDW as a price wedge to Dell, and had EMC come in first hand to help, even using EMC to force Dells price point down. I love pitting vendors against each other in this current economy. They get vicious. I got our last SAN for a steal.

With that said, do LOTs of homework. I spent 3 months prepping, getting performance metrics and even a few class seminars (not held by vendors, but by a partnership of peer firms, vendor held ones are all sales gimmicks and might drive you away from a better product)
Its worth your time, as to not run into issues down the road.

Catch 22 fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Mar 20, 2009

* # ¿ Mar 20, 2009 16:28
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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > Enterprise Storage Megathread: Why is my NAS a SAN?
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