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Xiahou Dun posted:It's sci-fi in the sense that imagining a parallel Earth with different geography and history is always going to be. Even if you're realistic outside of that. I’m not trying to raise an argument but I had a completely different reading that they are not parallel earths, but merely two cities inhabiting the same place, and centuries of socially conditioning people to respect one vs the other is what creates the divide. But if Joe Schmoe from America goes to the place and walks around that border checkpoint he’s not entering alternate dimensions.
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Jun 2, 2023 21:28
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Sandwolf posted:I’m not trying to raise an argument but I had a completely different reading that they are not parallel earths, but merely two cities inhabiting the same place, and centuries of socially conditioning people to respect one vs the other is what creates the divide. But if Joe Schmoe from America goes to the place and walks around that border checkpoint he’s not entering alternate dimensions. he means that the earth the book takes place on is parallel to our earth
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Jun 2, 2023 21:34
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Sandwolf posted:I’m not trying to raise an argument but I had a completely different reading that they are not parallel earths, but merely two cities inhabiting the same place, and centuries of socially conditioning people to respect one vs the other is what creates the divide. But if Joe Schmoe from America goes to the place and walks around that border checkpoint he’s not entering alternate dimensions. ...? The parallel Earth is because Besźel and Ul Qoma aren't real. There are Americans in the novel.
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Jun 2, 2023 21:35
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My bad, I thought you were saying Beszel or Al Qoma are overlapping from another parallel earth. Whoops!
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Jun 2, 2023 21:37
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I always thought City and the City was the least interesting of his books because that's just what Glasgow/Belfast are like irl
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Jun 2, 2023 22:38
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Lunchmeat Larry posted:I always thought City and the City was the least interesting of his books because that's just what Glasgow/Belfast are like irl the setting is reasonably novel, but its just a really good noir thriller imo
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Jun 2, 2023 22:40
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Sandwolf posted:The City & The City has some unnatural aspects but I’m not sure I’d describe it as Sci-fi or fantasy. It’s more like Balkan speculative fiction. It's been a while since I read this one but I think the twist is that there are no supernatural aspects, it's just people lying to themselves. Sandwolf posted:I’m not trying to raise an argument but I had a completely different reading that they are not parallel earths, but merely two cities inhabiting the same place, and centuries of socially conditioning people to respect one vs the other is what creates the divide. But if Joe Schmoe from America goes to the place and walks around that border checkpoint he’s not entering alternate dimensions. I recall tourists had to do a period of conditioning themselves before they were allowed in.
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Jun 2, 2023 23:40
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A plot point is the dead girl’s dad doing a Breach and everything. It’s explicitly a weird fake country on Earth with a couple pieces of random alternate history to make room for the setting.
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Jun 2, 2023 23:46
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its a genre called “speculative fiction” about something that doesn’t exist, but might as well
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Jun 2, 2023 23:51
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Xiahou Dun posted:It's sci-fi in the sense that imagining a parallel Earth with different geography and history is always going to be. Even if you're realistic outside of that. I disagree, there’s a clear distinction between alternate history that stays strictly within “normal” bounds of physical plausibility, and AH stories that introduce aliens, time travel, dimension-hopping, etc. Harry Turtledoge writes both kinds.
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Jun 3, 2023 02:51
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Harry Turtledoge 
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Jun 3, 2023 02:59
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Poldarn posted:It's been a while since I read this one but I think the twist is that there are no supernatural aspects, it's just people lying to themselves.
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Jun 3, 2023 02:59
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FPyat posted:I disagree, there’s a clear distinction between alternate history that stays strictly within “normal” bounds of physical plausibility, and AH stories that introduce aliens, time travel, dimension-hopping, etc. Harry Turtledoge writes both kinds. And there are distinctions between poodles and great danes. That doesn’t mean they’re not dogs. That’s like, not how the concepts of “different” and “same” work. Is the thread okay? Y’all are having some bonkers takes today. Edit : or wait, were you fumbling at the distinction between historical fiction and alt history? That’d make more sense with what you said, but makes absolutely none in light of what the conversation is about. Xiahou Dun fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Jun 3, 2023 |
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Jun 3, 2023 03:00
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Science fiction is not merely defined by difference from reality. People mostly do not say that fantasy simply is a form of science fiction, though I’m sure there are many theorists who do.
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Jun 3, 2023 03:45
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FPyat posted:Science fiction is not merely defined by difference from reality. People mostly do not say that fantasy simply is a form of science fiction, though I’m sure there are many theorists who do. Are you even engaging with the conversation anymore? No one has said that. Who are you talking to.
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Jun 3, 2023 03:50
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You stated that ‘That’s like, not how the concepts of “different” and “same” work.’ Which suggested to me that that might be the definition of science fiction you might be operating with.
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Jun 3, 2023 03:56
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FPyat posted:You stated that ‘That’s like, not how the concepts of “different” and “same” work.’ Which suggested to me that that might be the definition of science fiction you might be operating with. What I actually said however is that having an alternative present Earth is always, definitionally a science fiction premise. You quoted it the first time.
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Jun 3, 2023 04:09
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FPyat posted:Science fiction is not merely defined by difference from reality. People mostly do not say that fantasy simply is a form of science fiction, though I’m sure there are many theorists who do. this is a non sequitur but i do argue that sometimes
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Jun 3, 2023 04:15
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Xiahou Dun posted:What I actually said however is that having an alternative present Earth is always, definitionally a science fiction premise. That’s the primary reason why it seemed likely you would hold such a definition.
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Jun 3, 2023 04:24
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FPyat posted:That’s the primary reason why it seemed likely you would hold such a definition. Perhaps this has been educational then.
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Jun 3, 2023 04:33
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Low fantasy is when uther doul is an adventurer. High fantasy is when uther doul is part of a knightly order. Science fiction is when uther doul is a cop. Cyberpunk is when uther doul is a corrupt cop. Literary “elevated genre” is when you are married to uther doul. Erotica is when you want uther doul to gently caress you in several possible ways. Literature is when uther doul is a metaphor for men in your life.
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Jun 3, 2023 04:35
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Mystery is when uther doul is found dead. Horror is when uther doul is found alive. Nonfiction is when uther doul is nowhere to be found.
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Jun 3, 2023 04:39
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Xiahou Dun posted:Perhaps this has been educational then. It hasn't been educational because I still don't know what your definition of science fiction is. Note that this kind of debate is hardly new to the alternate history community. Shevek23 posted:That would certainly tend to suggest he would be similarly disabled in the ATL. 1912 is long enough after POD(s) to butterfly anything in particular, but the spirit of the TL is to tend to conserve persons and put them in different socio-political slots instead of traditional Church of the Almighty Butterfly with Misaligned Sperm that is something of a cult at AH.com--like, if you don't subscribe to this idea one is in danger of a mod ruling the TL ASB. That is to say, if your alternate history began to diverge from reality before October 27, 1858, you could not include Theodore Roosevelt in your story and claim to be writing with the intent of being plausible - even if his parents had conceived at the same time, a different sperm cell would have impregnated, so the Theodore we know with the genome we know would not be born. FPyat fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Jun 3, 2023 |
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Jun 3, 2023 04:58
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I mean the timeline would have diverged by at least Bronze Age because of the whole archaeology plot. And my personal definition is immaterial* because, and I really keep coming back to this, of how that statement was made inside of a larger discourse. If you read all of them in sequence it makes more sense. *if you must know, I don’t particularly care since the point of genre labels is descriptive communication. Rigid definitions of nuances are only useful if they’re widely agreed upon, and having a bespoke, personalized definition is completely antithetical to that. Much better to never assume something has to be either one genre or another, and then clarify specific definitions for a given conversation as needed. (“For this discussion, we can say “romance” in the older, non-amorous meaning” or whatever.)
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Jun 3, 2023 05:35
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Xiahou Dun posted:Rigid definitions of nuances are only useful if they’re widely agreed upon, and having a bespoke, personalized definition is completely antithetical to that. I'd call that the opposite of the truth. People need to stake out what exactly their terms are when there is no wide consensus about it (after all, people can't even settle whether Star Wars is SF); rather, it is when there is wide agreement that there is no need to get into the convoluted specifics. If you want your own view of its meaning to be immaterial, then you don't have much cause to declare it bonkers to adopt one of the other definitions in the contested social discourse that decides what science fiction is.
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Jun 3, 2023 06:14
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FPyat posted:I'd call that the opposite of the truth. People need to stake out what exactly their terms are when there is no wide consensus about it (after all, people can't even settle whether Star Wars is SF); rather, it is when there is wide agreement that there is no need to get into the convoluted specifics. If you want your own view of its meaning to be immaterial, then you don't have much cause to declare it bonkers to adopt one of the other definitions in the contested social discourse that decides what science fiction is. Everything you post is making me want to find a lost genie and get three wishes and use every one of them to go back in time and bully you more in high school
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Jun 3, 2023 08:24
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FPyat posted:I'd call that the opposite of the truth. People need to stake out what exactly their terms are when there is no wide consensus about it (after all, people can't even settle whether Star Wars is SF); rather, it is when there is wide agreement that there is no need to get into the convoluted specifics. If you want your own view of its meaning to be immaterial, then you don't have much cause to declare it bonkers to adopt one of the other definitions in the contested social discourse that decides what science fiction is. its fiction with science in it
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Jun 3, 2023 13:28
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scary ghost dog posted:its fiction with science in it It’s funny because intellectually I agree with the broad view of science fiction, but my gut really just wants it to be spaceships and robots, plain and simple.
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Jun 3, 2023 15:03
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That's because the human mind doesn't define concept with rules. It creates prototypes, which are just statistical lumps of all the examples of category members you've encountered. So you know that all birds are birds, but a sparrow is more birdlike than a penguin. All dogs are dogs, but a border collie is more of a dog than a chihuahua. Star Trek is more science fiction than Under the Skin even though both are science fiction. Because they're closer to the prototype. The rawest prototype-expression of science fiction is probably, like, advertising with a science fiction theme. Just pure signifiers of science fictionality with no content. Or the weird pre-trailers you see at movie theaters where some branded characters jump between different movie genres.
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Jun 3, 2023 15:12
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Stargate and Magic Portals To Elfland are the same genre, whatever you call it.
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Jun 3, 2023 15:51
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Harold Fjord posted:Stargate and Magic Portals To Elfland are the same genre, whatever you call it. Special hole stories.
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Jun 3, 2023 15:54
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Categories and genres are broadly useful for communication and setting expectations for new things in your mind quickly. There is no reason to be a stickler about anyone's definition after they take the time to explain it, but on the other hand if you have a non-typical personal definition you should be prepared to not be understood in some contexts.
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Jun 3, 2023 16:46
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It reminds me of the New Weird anthology by Jeff and Ann VanderMeer, during the end is a transcript of a conversation between authors about New Weird genre, whether it’s actually a thing or just a meaningless label that book sellers started using after Mieville’s books got popular.
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Jun 3, 2023 17:04
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Personally, I tend classify alternate Earth in a modern timeline stories like TC&TC as Fantasy, but I can see it both ways and ultimately it probably doesn’t matter. Also, I checked the ISBN classification in my copy of TC&TC for fun and it’s literally just 1. Murder - Investigation - Fiction, which to me seems to kinda bury the lede a bit lol
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Jun 3, 2023 20:51
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What I want ideally is for alternate history to be seen as an equal member of a triad with SF and Fantasy, but its lesser popularity means it’s never going to happen.
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Jun 4, 2023 01:38
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FPyat posted:What I want ideally is for alternate history to be seen as an equal member of a triad with SF and Fantasy, but its lesser popularity means it’s never going to happen. Who is trying to rank genres? That's dumb as poo poo and you should ignore people who do that. (That question is rhetorical. You should not answer it.)
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Jun 4, 2023 01:43
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So is Looking For Jake better or worse than Three Moments taken as a whole?
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Jun 4, 2023 06:00
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FPyat posted:So is Looking For Jake better or worse than Three Moments taken as a whole? Three Moments throws a ton of really cool ideas out there but stories more often than not feel like unfinished sketches. Overall it has a colder, more opaque and more literary weirdness. Looking For Jake has far fewer stories but mostly they're all super solid. It's full of much more straightforward sf/f and horror. Both are good. Both have truly weird poo poo in them. I'd probably prefer to read LFJ cover to cover right now than TMOAE
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Jun 4, 2023 06:09
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Open Source Idiom posted:Special hole stories. Chuck Tingle has this genre on lock
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Jun 4, 2023 06:37
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Gertrude Perkins posted:Chuck Tingle has this genre on lock Pounded in the Portal Fantasy by Puissant Protuberances
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Jun 4, 2023 07:46
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