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SaviourX posted:Planescape is the specific setting for DnD where the planes meet or are explored, and the art style and creatures created for it are echoed quite a bit by what shows up in PSS, that's all. I don't think it's as much Mieville copying planescape as the fact that planescape comes out of the whole "new weird" zeitgeist that Mieville comes from too. That mix of steampunk and urban settings and hardboiled tropes with fantasy isn't limited to either planescape or Mieville. But he definitely brings in D&D poo poo in Perdido Street Station - look at the "adventurers" who show up towards the end of the book.
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Apr 26, 2010 21:15
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Well, the multiple universes thing isn't unique to the genre of - let's say genre books, to keep from pigeon-holing fantasy/sci-fi-/*punk, etc - but Mieville has mentioned Moorcock as an influence, and he's all about the multiverse thing.
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Apr 27, 2010 02:37
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Notahippie posted:I don't think it's as much Mieville copying planescape as the fact that planescape comes out of the whole "new weird" zeitgeist that Mieville comes from too. That mix of steampunk and urban settings and hardboiled tropes with fantasy isn't limited to either planescape or Mieville. But he definitely brings in D&D poo poo in Perdido Street Station - look at the "adventurers" who show up towards the end of the book. There was an issue of some D&D magazine where Mieville basically admitted that he was riffing on your 'typical' D&D adventurers with those guys. There's also some tabletop gaming sourcebook that Mieville's been working on that's based in the Bas Lag universe that's been delayed like a hojillion times. I don't game, but I really want to get my mitts on that book.  And seriously, Ratios and Tendency? Planescape? That's the connection you made?  I'd say more 1800s London. The amount of filth and dirt that he takes care to mention matches it up quite well, as well as the neighborhoods and the way the whole city is constructed. It's not an exact copy, but I think there's more of that than there is Sigil. The way the devils were portrayed are hardly unique (or even original) to Dungeons & Dragons. Dr. Faustus predates D&D by a couple hundred years. I know PSS is a slow read initially (I felt that way at times on my first read) but it really is a great book and I really, really suggest you try and finish it. Especially if it's your first foray into Mieville's Bas-Lag world. The Scar does sorta, kinda reference PSS, but it is fantastic and has far more interesting stuff, although it also starts off a little slow, but I think it compensates by focusing more on the setting and the unique nature of it, as well as throwing some action bits in so it's not all 'blahblahblah-crisisengine-blahblahblah-avionics-blahblahblah-my daddy was a cockroach.' The Devils aside, I don't think there's really a Planescape element to the books. Things are screwed up because of things like Torque, which seems to affect the very fabric of reality, or they're things that exist on different wavelengths. Slake-moths, for example, sustain themselves by eating something that's insubstantial and there needs to be some sort of go-between there in order for them to function. It's not explained and not necessary, I don't think, as it's part of what makes them so horrific. Contrast that with the cactus guys and their crossbows: their weaponry, which is designed specifically to hurt other cactus people, is meant to impress on how dangerous these guys are and how over their heads Isaac and company are if they piss them off: they don't have anything that can hurt these guys. Sorry, I'll stop sperging over one of my favorite books. 
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Apr 27, 2010 13:08
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Oh I remember I was going to ask if anyone could explain a little bit about the Crisis Engine from PSS. Because, to me, it seemed like the whole thing was a little bit like when people use the term irony wrong. No actually, more like when people describe something as a paradox and it isn't. I figure that China is far cleverer than me and I'm just missing the point, but the scene near the end where they hook up the old dude to the Council and the weaver with the helmets. Apparently this unlocks presumably unlimited energy because the weaver and the council make up two different parts of the psyche which the old dude has, but also it....doesn't. And the crisis engine flips out because something is untrue and true at the same time? Like I said, it's probably me missing the point, or is that right? It just seems a little cheap for Mieville who was very good at all that sort of thing through the rest of the book.
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Apr 27, 2010 13:28
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Perdido posted:sperging over one of my favorite books I like your username  They're still promising Tales Of New Crobuzon will be out this year. I really want to get it even though I don't play RPGs either. I just want the art, and the new (semi-official) canon! I think China is working with the writers, but it's more of a "yeah you can do that" kind of deal than a "I want you to put the following in..."
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Apr 27, 2010 13:52
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EDIT: ^^ I swear I saw an interview where Mieville said he has tons of notes on Bas-Lag and he provided some of his own notes to them for that project. I'm in the same boat as you. I just want more Bas-Lag goodness. Hasn't it been delayed by like 2 years or was the initial release date Oct '09 and I'm just misremembering? And thanks on the username. Also, for making this thread  ---- Close, I think it's more the coming together of the utter rationality of the Construct Council with the completely unhinged chaotic nature of the Weaver. You have pure reason mixing together with well, take your pick: insanity, randomness, irrationality. Isaac is quite literally making dreams come true, which is why the slake moths find it so goddamned irresistible. I think he's playing around with the concept of dream logic, where people rationalize bizarre things happening in their dreams no matter how improbable or strange they are. Perdido fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Apr 27, 2010 |
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Apr 27, 2010 14:06
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I am not gonna mince words I wanna play that fucken game
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Apr 27, 2010 16:14
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Captain_Indigo posted:Oh I remember I was going to ask if anyone could explain a little bit about the Crisis Engine from PSS. I think you're mixing up two distinct things here. On one hand you have the crisis engine, which in this instance is being used as an amplifier, but could be used to power anything, like flight for Yag. The science behind it is bogus of course but it is essentially a perpetual motion machine. Whatever you do to increase "crisis" (think of it as potential energy), like lifting a rock for example, will be used as "fuel" by the engine to generate even more crisis, lifting the rock even higher for example. The signal, which is what is being amplified in this instance is a composite of 3 things: - the brain pattern of the CC, which is pure rationality - the brain pattern of the Weaver, which is pure irrationality - the brain pattern of the old man which is used as a schema to combine the previous two into a human like pattern that will taste like Kobe beef to the moths When the moths try to feed on the signal they get blown up because despite tasting irresistibly it doesn't satiate them, there's no real substance there just flavor, so they just keep lapping it up until they croak.
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Apr 27, 2010 18:06
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Okay cool, that all sounds pretty much how I thought it was. I thought there was a paragraph where he explained that the engine was being powered by the paradox of the meeting currents. I swear there was something where he said The Weaver = X, The Council = Y and The old man = Z and like, there was something to do with like, X+Y=Z, but X+Y didn't = Z so the engine flipped out and amplified exponentially. Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick, or it was less important than it implied. Oh well. Thanks
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Apr 27, 2010 23:08
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Welp, The City & the City won the Arthur C. Clarke Award for Best Novel, the preeminent British SF award, making Mieville the first writer to win the award three times (for Perdido, Iron Council, and this). Reviews on Kraken are great (this book looks FUN), he's avoiding getting stuck in one series or genre, he's thoughtful, ambitious, productive, smart, young and healthy. And happy, to all appearances. God, I am looking forward to a couple more decades of novels from this guy.
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Apr 29, 2010 16:23
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onefish posted:Welp, The City & the City won the Arthur C. Clarke Award for Best Novel, the preeminent British SF award, making Mieville the first writer to win the award three times (for Perdido, Iron Council, and this). I hope he's one of those incredibly prolific authors who'll still be writing when he's in his 70s. And I hope there's at least a handful more Bas-Lag novels
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Apr 30, 2010 02:30
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Hedrigall posted:I hope he's one of those incredibly prolific authors who'll still be writing when he's in his 70s. And I hope there's at least a handful more Bas-Lag novels Oh totally, me too. I love Bas-Lag. But I respect the fact that he's doing other stuff, too, and it's STILL GOOD. And it's great that each Bas-Lag book stands alone, so we're not all furious waiting for the next one to continue the story like certain other authors we all could name.
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Apr 30, 2010 03:26
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PSS has literally nothing to do with science fiction why did it win a science fiction award?? (let alone any literary award)
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Apr 30, 2010 03:48
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onefish posted:Oh totally, me too. I love Bas-Lag. But I respect the fact that he's doing other stuff, too, and it's STILL GOOD. And it's great that each Bas-Lag book stands alone, so we're not all furious waiting for the next one to continue the story like certain other authors we all could name. Let's sperg about Bas-Lag books to come I want him to write more exploration/adventure books in Rohagi and beyond, similar to the Cutter chapters of first half of Iron Council. I want to read more about the deserts and the mountains. I want to know more about Nova Esperium. I want to read a novel set in Bas-Lag's past, and one set hundreds of years after PSS/Scar/IC. I want him to do short stories featuring characters from previous books. I want him to do an atlas/bestiary/compendium of Bas-Lag. Edit: why is Nova Esperium ("new western land") called that if it's east of Rohagi? Edit 2: wait Hesperia is western land and it's in Greek not Latin, nm Hedrigall fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Apr 30, 2010 |
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Apr 30, 2010 05:51
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Hedrigall posted:
Two possibilities: Option 1: Nova Esperium, "new western land", it's the new land of the westerners. Option 2: He's relying on the false cognate that the 'esp' root is, in many Romance languages, associated with Hope - i.e. Nueva Esperanza would be New Hope in spanish.
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Apr 30, 2010 06:36
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Ratios and Tendency posted:PSS has literally nothing to do with science fiction why did it win a science fiction award?? (let alone any literary award) You're trolling right? Did you actually read it, because if you did you would have noted that it has many obvious elements that would easily classify it as a work of science fiction?
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Apr 30, 2010 07:21
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Hedrigall posted:Let's sperg about Bas-Lag books to come In the same vein, what did the Khepri flee from?  Though I fear this is one of those circumstances where the less you know the more interesting it is I hate being tantalized.
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Apr 30, 2010 07:29
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Ratios and Tendency posted:PSS has literally nothing to do with science fiction why did it win a science fiction award?? (let alone any literary award) It's about (strange) science, and it's fiction. It sounds like you're confused because there's no spaceships or rayguns, or maybe you're just baiting? Also, congrats to Miéville for the award, this makes me want to read The City & The City even more. I wonder what genre he's going to tackle next? (please let it be space opera  )
Nuclear Tourist fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Apr 30, 2010 |
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Apr 30, 2010 08:50
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Hedrigall posted:Let's sperg about Bas-Lag books to come I want him to do an utter deconstruction of vampire paranormal romance set in High Cromlech. Or anything else in High Cromlech. Nova Esperium and past and future Bas-Lag books would be great, too. Man, I wonder if the industrializing world presented in the three books so far would ever develop technology along the lines of our "modern" world. Electronics and computing? A novella set during the Malarial Queendom could be cool. Short story of the cactacae and Shankell, with gladiators? I think the Ghosthead sound awesome, of course, but somehow I feel like any actual story set during their rule would be disappointing. He's said he HAS developed lots about Bas-Lag he hasn't put in the books. Also, he does drawings of some of the monsters and races for his own reference, and he's not a terrible artist, as Un Lun Dun showed. I think he's mentioned an interest in a Bas-Lag compendium of the type you're discussing. But High Cromlech always seemed to me like somewhere he'd thought through for Uther Doul's backstory, but kept mysterious in the Scar. edit: Re: a Mieville Space Opera -- I could dig it. and here's another great Kraken review: http://sfreviews.net/mieville_kraken.html onefish fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Apr 30, 2010 |
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Apr 30, 2010 17:49
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onefish posted:Man, I wonder if the industrializing world presented in the three books so far would ever develop technology along the lines of our "modern" world. Electronics and computing? I doubt that. The technology was developed a long time before the books, and people have largely forgotten how it works. Remember the weather control device in New Crobuzon, it's been broken for centuries and no one has a clue how it worked, let alone how to fix it. Maybe the machines will advance by themselves, but everything else is decaying.
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Apr 30, 2010 19:09
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Bas-Lag is not so much "stolen from Planescape" as "should be illustrated by DiTerlizzi", because his Planescape art style was perfect at evoking the notion of a population of the most urbane, bizarre crowd you could possibly get in a fantasy world. Coming at Mieville's books from a gaming perspective, the most original (in terms of the fantasy genre, that is) thing that he did was having each form of magic fundamentally be its own tradition (or science -his magic approach is another good reason to say PSS qualifies as sci-fi). You don't just have staid D&D derived wizards, there were dozens of plot-related magic varieties alone, and they were all pretty drat interesting. His prose does have a bit of a Lovecraftian overcomplexity weakness, but his world-building is fantastic (and I at least get most of my fantasy novel enjoyment from discovering "How is this not just a crappy LotR clone?"). And just out of curiosity, is anyone complaining about the politics not American? England does kind of have a slightly more significant history of actually considering the political position of labo(u)r, and it's really less of "blatant politics!" and more of "he has a different understanding and cultural basis, which you are unfamiliar with"
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May 2, 2010 11:14
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quote:It starts to hail ferociously from what has been a warm(ish) blue sky minutes after I arrive at China Miéville's home in north-west London. I am startled, but Miéville takes it in his stride; after all, this is exactly the sort of thing which goes on in his particular brand of monster-ridden, literary urban fantasy. Hahaha 
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May 2, 2010 22:15
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I just read The City and The City and it's pretty much a perfect little novel, and it's mild enough that I'm lending it to my mum now to read. It's a book that really shows how far he's come since King Rat. It's great reading along as he matures as an author, and now I'm more excited than ever for Kraken. I look forward to more of the same sense of humour we got to see in Un Lun Dun and some parts of PSS!
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May 2, 2010 23:32
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Finished The Scar this weekend and enjoyed it more than PSS - I appreciated the more focused narrative and IMO better main and supporting characters.
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May 3, 2010 20:38
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Pieces of Peace posted:And just out of curiosity, is anyone complaining about the politics not American? England does kind of have a slightly more significant history of actually considering the political position of labo(u)r, and it's really less of "blatant politics!" and more of "he has a different understanding and cultural basis, which you are unfamiliar with" As a Canadian who has a background in studying English lit/history, no, not really, up until Iron Council, where it seemed to be coming on really thick. Rather than having it be part of the work, the political overtones in Iron Council were frustrating...which is interesting, as I have a funny feeling that the whole concept of the train in Iron Council was based off of the TransCanada Railway. Some of the descriptions and such of the railway seemed vaguely familiar, particularly with the colonial overtones. I think there may have been 1 or 2 more direct references inserted in...I remember raising my eyebrow at them. Frankly, I like what he was doing with political/social commentary in PSS/The Scar, not as much with Iron Council. It seems to be a fairly common complaint, too.
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May 4, 2010 08:26
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Perdido posted:As a Canadian who has a background in studying English lit/history, no, not really, up until Iron Council, where it seemed to be coming on really thick. Rather than having it be part of the work, the political overtones in Iron Council were frustrating...which is interesting, as I have a funny feeling that the whole concept of the train in Iron Council was based off of the TransCanada Railway. Some of the descriptions and such of the railway seemed vaguely familiar, particularly with the colonial overtones. I think there may have been 1 or 2 more direct references inserted in...I remember raising my eyebrow at them. Every Great Railway story is pretty much the same though. Iron Council could just have easily been based on Cecil Rhodes' attempted railway from Cape Town to Cairo. Rhodes is definitely a Weather Wrightby-like figure too.
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May 4, 2010 08:31
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I hope people complain just as much about the blatant pro-fascist sentiments present in the majority of sci-fi lit.
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May 4, 2010 14:51
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I found it refreshing to have some different politics, and given the setting, the whole communist revolutionary element fits perfectly. I don't understand the complaints at all.
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May 4, 2010 15:11
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Hedrigall posted:Every Great Railway story is pretty much the same though. Iron Council could just have easily been based on Cecil Rhodes' attempted railway from Cape Town to Cairo. Rhodes is definitely a Weather Wrightby-like figure too. Now I'm going to have to sit down with Iron Council and find those things that jumped out at me. Maybe I was just reading too much into what was there and there are just some universal similarities to that sort of a story. Good call on Cecil Rhodes/WEather Wrightby, too. Now I'm really thinking I got too wrapped up into associating certain things that I excluded other parallels/possibilities. quote:I hope people complain just as much about the blatant pro-fascist sentiments present in the majority of sci-fi lit. I do. I also have a huge problem with a lot of the fantasy genre as well. And I'm not complaining about the inclusion of socialist sentiments in the books I read or Mieville's decision to do so. I just don't think it wasn't as skillfully woven in as it was in Perdido Street Station or The Scar. Like, in Perdido, you have the Runagate Rampant and the folks involved with that, trying to affect change. It's very pessimistic as these people are basically getting played and can be rounded up by the authorities very easily. But you contrast it to how the city conducts itself, particularly with the fascistic way New Crobozun is run and it's not being done in a flattering way, so you start to appreciate these folks who are involved with things like the Runagate. I mean, this is a political body that cavorts with literal Devils. While you could say that is a rather blatant and over-the-top way of conveying just how scummy these guys are, it comes across as being natural and organic to the story: we've seen how they treat non-humans, how they punish people (Remaking), their affiliations with organized crime and how corrupt and brutal they are to the people they govern. Them dealing with THE DEVIL comes naturally and fits in nicely to the overall story. The fundamental message that I got out of the PSS was twofold: one, there's really no such thing as 'heroes': Isaac and company are going to be unheralded and uncelebrated and, at best, are going to escape capture and at worst, get hunted down and executed for being criminals to the state. Two, that, despite the fact that they're a group of nobodies who are in way over their heads affecting things that are so far beyond their control, they're going about doing it anyways because it's the right thing to do...and it does result in change (even if it's a little bit deus ex machina-ey a la The Weaver.) That's loving great stuff! Armada, on the other hand, comes across much better in the organized socialist commune than the railworkers did in Iron Council, at least for me. Part of it is from necessity: you have these people coming together from a variety of backgrounds, some pressganged, others not and are falling into this better way of life. Remade people or criminals aren't judged or treated as less than equals, they're judged on their own merits and contribute to society and integrate into Armada quite well. Contrast that with the 'NO PAY NO LAY NO PAY NO LAY' crap that comes up in Iron Council and it really didn't jive in the same way with me, although I will say that the way Mieville built it up and wrote it was fine and made sense to the internal story. I just didn't like the way it was written, not that it was included. EDIT: Also, before someone brands me as a woman hatin' goony Goon goon goon, my sole problems weren't with the prostitutes initiating the uprising. It's just the most memorable scene from the book (I lost it while I was in the process of moving so I don't have it handy to look up specific passages, otherwise I'd hold up other examples) of what I didn't enjoy. I did find the bits with Toro and the gang more believable, but, well, we all know how that turns out and what it is about. Perdido fucked around with this message at 04:32 on May 5, 2010 |
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May 5, 2010 04:28
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Some Miéville goodness: China's very nice acceptance speech for his third Arthur C Clarke award: http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/2010/china-mieville-at-the-arthur-c-clarke-awards/ (Can anyone catch the name of his partner, who he thanks?) An A-Z of China Miéville (seems to be an interview of sorts where he talks about a word, item or concept starting with each letter): http://www.panmacmillan.com/interviews/displayPage.asp?PageID=8119 Somebody's report of a book signing they went to last Sunday: http://www.pornokitsch.com/2010/05/postscript-sci-fi-london-coffee-with-gary-erskine-and-china-mi%E9ville.html ... where China told them that he has  an entire, completed manuscript sitting around He said he had Kraken completed when he submitted TC&TC for publication, and now it seems there's a new book ready just as Kraken is coming out. My god he is prolific. Hopefully we'll see it in 2011!  ------ More junk: The French Bas-Lag covers are loving awesome:   As are the German ones:   Here's a pretty cool map of Bas-Lag someone did: http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/300/9/5/Bas_Lag_by_JenJenRobot.jpg Hedrigall fucked around with this message at 13:55 on May 6, 2010 |
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May 6, 2010 13:31
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I'm actually holding a copy of Kraken in my hands right now. I'm ill though and need to sleep but I know I am going to get through this in a matter of days. It's big...good big. Only read the 'prologue' page so far, and already I'm excited.
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May 6, 2010 15:04
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Captain_Indigo posted:I'm actually holding a copy of Kraken in my hands right now. I'm ill though and need to sleep but I know I am going to get through this in a matter of days. It's big...good big. Only read the 'prologue' page so far, and already I'm excited. UK or US edition? What's the page count? So jealous... (mine should be in my hands by Sunday)
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May 6, 2010 15:15
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Uk, Hardcover. 481 pages long. Actually, with the size of the text it's probably quite a bit shorter than his other work. Hard to say.
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May 6, 2010 15:45
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Captain_Indigo posted:Uk, Hardcover. 481 pages long. Actually, with the size of the text it's probably quite a bit shorter than his other work. Hard to say. Oh I hope it's not too large text. I really look forward to reading a longer work from him, Un Lun Dun and TC&TC were both pretty short.
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May 6, 2010 16:07
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I just ordered the UK edition from Amazon -- hopefully it ships early! I am way too impatient to wait another month for it to become locally available, and I like the UK covers better. Anyway, why do they have different release dates between British and American versions? We both speak English 
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May 6, 2010 17:48
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I'm thinking about getting the electronic version of Kraken from amazon when it comes out, I don't have a kindle but I think computer/ipod touch would be fine. I don't really like reading hardcover books (trade paperbacks are the best imo) and I don't want to wait! Also that map of Bas-Lag is amazing. It differs from my minds-eye in a few respects but very cool.
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May 6, 2010 18:29
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priznat posted:I'm thinking about getting the electronic version of Kraken from amazon when it comes out, I don't have a kindle but I think computer/ipod touch would be fine. Is it released tomorrow for Amazon.co.uk? I can't access the Kindle store there, and my Kindle is registered US.
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May 6, 2010 19:36
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I think that map is from the Dragon Bas Lag issue. I can't find the drat thing at the moment, but it looks drat familiar.
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May 6, 2010 23:18
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Nah, it's fan-made. The Dragon map is different, and inferior.
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May 7, 2010 01:05
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Hedrigall posted:Here's a pretty cool map of Bas-Lag someone did: Totally awesome, only gripe is the misspelling of Cacatopic Stain.
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May 7, 2010 23:16
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