|
So I have a couple questions about wiring. I'm a student studying industrial maintenance and that included residential and commercial wiring courses, but for the life of me I can't remember some of this stuff. The project is supply electricity from a source to a pair out laying locations. Its a 240v panel that's fed straight from the pole. I need to supply power to a pavilion about 150 feet away, and to an area of enclosures for keeping large animals another 100 feet out beyond that. The pavilion will need 3 lights (most likely outdoor halogen spot lights, but could just be 100 watt equivalent CFLs, and will have two pairs of receptacles. The enclosure area beyond will have 6-8 floodlights but no receptacles. The expected things to be plugged into the pavilion would be crock pots and coffee makers, maybe a boombox or small stereo system (100 watts give or take). The initial plan was to run XHHN or THWN from the barn where the panel is, across a road on the property (on a pair of electrical poles that already have the needed bits on the pole from a previous elevated cable) and to an outbuilding (that has the other cable already feeding a panel), then burying it the rest of the way to the pavilion, and the enclosures. I had planned on two separate circuits both with 30A breakers at the main panel, but since the panel is 240 and I need 120 on the feeder circuits, I'm not 100% certain how to accomplish this safely. The outbuilding has a feeder panel that I thought was wired funny when I first looked at it, but after digging through my text books, I'm not so certain it was hanky. The main panel had Hot, Neutral and Ground wired as you would expect, but the feeder panel had the neutral tied to ground. The breakers would pop the moment something was plugged into it and I thought that was because of the wire in the panel. (there wasn't a GFCI in the building all though there should be.) It wasn't until I had separated out the neutrals off the ground and added a second circuit breaker and had some CFLs fizzle out that I realized the panel was 240 and feeding too much juice to the light bulbs. I wired it back up the way I found it, but kept the 2nd circuit breaker (feeding 1 receptacle and the other feeding the lights) and the breakers stopped being dumb. When I measure the voltage (which I probably should have done initially instead of just checking continuity so I knew what wire and bus bar was what) I was getting 120 like I should have. The questions: Why was I getting 120 on the panel? Shouldn't the neutral being wired to the ground in that panel cause ground faults when something completed the circuit? Is there a better solution to running elevated cable and then burying the rest (in underground conduit)? If I need 120 at the pavilion and enclosures, will I need to tie the neutrals to ground in the main panel? If not, do I need a new feeder panel? What would be the ideal circuit breakers for the two applications? I was thinking 15A for the enclosures and 30A for the Pavilion? Would I need to increase the size of the main breaker on the main panel? (200A main breaker on the panel, with 15-30A breakers feeding lights, receptacles, 2 industrial freezers, 1 industrial fridge and 2 residential style fridges and freezers) Is 14-2 sufficient or would I need to bump the size up to 12-2? Are there any questions I should have asked or information I should have provided? Disclaimer: The person I'm doing work for knows I'm only a student and not a licensed electrician so there isn't any deception on my part. I want to make sure I'm doing it right and I do a good job on it since its all experience to help me when I eventually graduate and hit the field. 
|
#
¿
Apr 28, 2013 03:46
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 11, 2024 11:38 |
|
|
I am terrible at anything requiring drawing but in theory this should be understandable. The black line is suspended from the far left building to the next building over. The red lines will probably be buried to save on headaches. Everything should be 120V outside of the main panel. Is this helpful or more confusing? quote:I see a WHOLE BUNCH wrong/scary here, but this is basically "design a service for me" and reads close to the section of the Master Electrician's exam that counts for 1/3 the points, so not something easy or simple. That's why I asked. The electrical classes I took hit the highlights more than anything. I kept my textbooks as reference in the event I needed to wire something around the house. Theoretically the service is already designed (albeit ugly and in need of work). No actual work will be preformed until I know it won't kill somebody or something in the process. I know enough to know I don't know enough to tackle it alone so I plan on getting more experienced help at install time.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 29, 2013 22:49
|
|
|
babyeatingpsychopath posted:You are going to go overhead from the enclosures, to the pavilion, then underground to the service. Other way around, Its overhead from the service to the existing build, then underground everywhere else. The ignored building is receiving 240V overhead via a 12-2 UF-B W/G cable being fed into a feeder panel. The feeder panel contains a 2 circuit breaker bus bar (I might be using wrong terms, it supports 2 breaker pairs). A 30A breaker is feeding 1 outlet (2 receptacles) with a foot of standard 14-2 romex. A 15A breaker is feeding 2 lights in series (with 22.5 watt CFLs if it matters). The Panel is wired with neutrals to ground on both breakers and is providing 120V RMS according to my meter when I checked it. I actually have a photograph of the interior of that panel (in pretty high resolution) that I can post tomorrow if needed. The service is a hot mess and I'd need to go back onsite to study it in order to actually give anything useful beyond the wiring relating to the current outbuilding and proposed setup. We've got about a half mile of underground electrical conduit to cover 100ish yards so I think we're good on that. I have outdoor weatherized lighting, receptacles and a pair of weatherized panels to play with. I do not have enough cable (of any type really) to do anything with. The cable is really the biggest issue in terms of getting purchased. Everything else comes down to design and making sure there aren't any gross code violations that will result in fire or electrical shock to either the staff or the animals kept in the enclosures. The site owner is big on cutting corners, but electrically ignorant and leaving decisions on that up to me. As I said in the previous post, I know enough to know that I don't know enough and a pair of text books (Modern Residential/Commercial Wiring - Harvey N. Holzman (2011 NEC)) and the out of date copy of the NEC I have (also 2011) will only get me so far and isn't a fair replacement for practical OTJ experience. Edit: There are actually 19 enclosures on that side, I only need lighting in 4 (maybe 5) places. For mathing just assume I'm under budgeting myself and really need 8, so call it 7 amps just on that line alone. Kasan fucked around with this message at 05:04 on May 1, 2013 |
|
#
¿
May 1, 2013 05:01
|
|
|
babyeatingpsychopath posted:Feeding #14 romex with a 30A breaker is definitely wrong, and has never been right. That should be a 15A max, and if there's only outlet, it should be rated at the breaker size. I see where I was confused on the #14 romex and the 30am circuit. 240.5(B)(2) listed fixures at 30A for #14, but 240.3(D)(3) lists it at 15A for #14 copper. Whoops. I'll change that breaker when I get out there next (There isn't anything other than a cash register/laptop ever plugged into it (supposedly)) 547 was a fun read and told me I could do a few things I didn't know I could so long as I have the right panel box. ------ So If I am reading the code correctly, I need to size the pavilion for 840VA / 120V (15A breaker should be enough I think), and the enclosures for 15A as well. Hanging the UF appears to be ok in my case due to how the barn is wired and classified in the code, and burying it the rest of the way is also going to be kosher. As of writing I'm still digging through the section on grounding and bonding looking for the relevant sections for an aluminium pavilion and chain link fences that use wooden posts instead of metal.
|
|
#
¿
May 1, 2013 19:28
|
|
|
Cross posted from the Electronics thread because I'm an idiot and couldn't find this thread in the first place: I have an electrical issue that I have the knowledge enough to repair, but I can't seem to diagnose the issue. A couple days ago I had an outlet die on me with a lovely pop of blue smoke. (pluged into it was a 1/8 HP motor running at the time, and this outlet has solely been used to power that outlet for about 4 winters now as it's attached to my fireplace insert). I thought no biggie, I'll replace it. Well, it turns out that when it blew, it took literally 50% of the electrical outlets, lights and ceiling fans with it. Again no biggie, I'll go replace the fuse and reset any circuit breakers that popped. Now here is the problem. The entire branch that's affected ISN'T attached to a fuse or breaker as far as I can tell. I could go to each outlet in the house and test for voltage, but I have no way of telling if the outlet I'm checking is on that branch or not. I know there's a tool that you can plug into a circuit and it'll tell you roughly where the break is in terms of wire distance, but the name escapes me and I'm not even sure if it would help. There isn't a wiring diagram for the house, and the labels on the ancient fuse box and break box aren't even correct. Hell the hell do I fix this problem? It's mostly an inconvenience because I no longer have a porch light, living room light or guest bedroom light, but as much of an introvert as I am, I'm not a troglodyte and having only computer monitors for light sources is an eyestrain. Things I've done: Checked every fuse and found none dead Checked every breaker, and all of them are on Replaced the receptacle that I thought was the issue with a new one (and was horrified to find the ground wire was grounded to the junction, not the receptacle) Metered a couple circuits I knew were on the same branch due to placement (guessing) and found no voltage. Things I'm unsure of but willing to test: Metering every outlet in the house with live current and tagging all the ones that come up dead. Unsure if I find a dead outlet next to a live outlet, does that mean that outlet is the issue or is it a different branch. Would ANY outlet on the branch comeback as having current with the current situation.) Crawling under the house and looking to see where most of the romex goes and trying to trace the line. A ton of the house has the power lines just under the subfloor going from point A to point B. Since I've been educated in the ways of residential electrical networks I've yet to crawl down there and figure out where everything is going.) My fear: There might be a junction behind the wall that burned out that I have no way of finding with out tearing out every wall in the house. Can anybody advise me on what to do? I'm capable enough to do it, and have about 80% of the tools a professional electrician has due to my schooling. I literally can't afford a professional to come out and fix it so I'm pretty much on my own here
|
|
#
¿
Feb 25, 2017 22:42
|
|
|
kid sinister posted:Just because a breaker is switched on doesn't mean that it's passing power. The breaker could have died. Take off your electric panel. Test for voltage between the screw lug on each breaker and either the neutral or ground busbar. Are there any that are switched on, yet have no voltage? I'll check that tomorrow during the day, but yeah I cycled every breaker and pulled every fuse and tested for continuity. I didn't think the breaker itself could have died, but I have some extras laying around so that's a good starting point I can do. I'll report findings tomorrow.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 26, 2017 01:44
|
|
|
kid sinister posted:Just because a breaker is switched on doesn't mean that it's passing power. The breaker could have died. Take off your electric panel. Test for voltage between the screw lug on each breaker and either the neutral or ground busbar. Are there any that are switched on, yet have no voltage? Trip Report: My fuse panel terrifies me because everything is wired funky through the fuses and power isn't traveling where I thought it was. of the 4 Double Fuse blocks, and 10 breakers. 11 pass 240v through them, while the remaining three pass 120v. On every circuit breaker my multi-meter on continuity mode beeped intermittently which I've never heard it do. Usually it just beeps continuously if there is power flowing. Nothing didn't beep at all. so there's power flowing everywhere. The way the whole shebang is wired, is mains runs into the fuse box, is wire nutted and mummified in duck-tape and fed into the circuit break box. Between the two there are 6 feeder wires exiting the fuse panel and breaker box all running under the house. There are two critical missing things. There is no mains shutoff (and I think that's why one of my fuses blows constantly, its the first stop mains takes on the heaviest load fuse), and there is no master breaker anywhere. My house is sucking down all the current in the world that it wants to suck down. Included is a picture of the fuse panel since it's wiring confuses me and I can't tell if poo poo is cross wired or not. I'll include a picture of the circuit breaker box if needed. Fuse Box (couldn't get any image tag to work so posted a link)
|
|
#
¿
Feb 26, 2017 18:16
|
|
|
kid sinister posted:I said voltage, not continuity. Where did you put the probes? I tested both, but for continuity I probed the hot side of the breaker and the neutral, or the seconardy output if it was a dual slot breaker. Everything has the voltages I listed.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 27, 2017 01:41
|
|
|
I've got a wiring conundrum. My stove (a 1950s model) recently died and I got a modern replacement, a Whirlpool WFE535S0LS. I wired up the pigtail and plugged it in, and while the heating elements worked, the digital oven controls did not. I took a multimeter to the contracts and got 240v L1 to L2, 240v L1 to N, and 1.6v N to L2. No biggy, my outlet is ancient and is probably mis-wired. I swap the L2 and N, and... I still get 240v L1 to L2 and L1 to N, however the digitial control on the oven pops on for about ten seconds before throwing up an error code (that according to Whirlpool means there is too much voltage on the line). I unplugged it, tested the actual outlet (240v L1 to L2, 120v L1/2 to N), the circuit breaker (40A (120 to N on both contacts, 240 between them), even replaced the pigtail with a new one. I'm at a loss. The store I bought it from, even tested it there when I went to return it thinking it defective, but it worked fine when plugged into a 240v line there. I'm not a rookie when it comes to electricity, but my formal education on the matter hasn't really been used in over a decade (and focused more on microelectronics anyway). What could the issue be?
|
|
#
¿
Apr 6, 2024 20:50
|
|
|
Blackbeer posted:Take a pic of the cord hookup on the stove. Did you take it back to the store with the cord on? https://imgur.com/a/gnIoly0 I did with the second pigtail (since I also bought it from the same place). I just double checked that when plugged in (but not connected), I still get 240/120 through the pigtail. L1 - N - L2. Plug is facing down in this orientation, no kinks or bends in the cord. (although the orientation shouldn't matter as long as the two hots on the outside terminals unless I'm badly remembering how AC works vs DC) Edit: Nuts are off because I haven't keep it hooked up while I try and figure out what is wrong.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 6, 2024 22:03
|
|
|
Blackbeer posted:Dang, figured it was a long shot that the cord was wired in wrong, but would have been the easiest to fix. kid sinister posted:You should only be getting 120V line to neutral. Check the wiring at the panel. Something ain't right. At the panel that's exactly what I get. At the outlet that's exactly what I get. At the pigtail, that's exactly what I get. At the machine, I get values that electrically should be impossible with the other three conditions being true.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 7, 2024 14:52
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 11, 2024 11:38 |
|
|
Coolguye posted:i'm a little too dumb to know what you mean by mains side Mains is the AC side of the circuit. Everything before the transformer where it hooks into the house wiring. Everything after(edit: the rectifier. not the transformer. A rectifier is where the AC becomes DC) that is DC and usually pretty easy to tinker with as long as you don't have to worry about IC chips. Changing a switch to a mechanical dimmer (and timer probably) is pretty easy since you'd essentially be changing the switch to a potentiometer. You would control everything with something as simple as an arduino.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 8, 2024 01:28
|
|