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I didn't realize this thread existed, so I asked in totally the wrong place. Crosspost! Say I've got a lovely townhouse-style garage. It's got a 15 amp breaker on it, which I believe may also be shared between some parts of the kitchen. Probably just the lights, if anything. Now say that sometimes--not often, but sometimes--when I turn on my tablesaw, I trip the breaker. Would it be a Very Bad Idea™ to just swap in a 20 amp breaker on it? I don't believe the circuit would ever need to sustain 20 amps, just while my saw spins up and draws more current for all of a second. I realize that running 20 amps continuously could be a problem if the wiring isn't heavy enough, but I can't imagine the difference would be that critical, especially if the bigger draw was only temporary.
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Apr 11, 2011 20:24
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Knob and tube? e: Nevermind, googled it. Definitely not that, the place is roughly ten years old. Of course, that only speaks to the building techniques rather than the building quality, as it's one of those built-by-the-dozens, hey-let's-make-more-suburbia-lol type places. It looks like most of the wiring coming out of the breaker box is 12? But it's drat hard to read (since it's just embossed on the outer sheath instead of actually printed) and I have no idea which line is actually which. Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Apr 12, 2011 |
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Apr 12, 2011 01:11
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Hmm. That's probably do-able, then. Hell, maybe it'd be nice to have a speed control on there anyhow. Maybe I wouldn't find myself burning nice maple as often.  Thanks!
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Apr 12, 2011 03:43
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Oh, well, whatever. I don't even know what that means.  If it's of interest, I can take a picture of the wiring diagram plate on the back of the motor.
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Apr 12, 2011 04:08
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Can do! This is a very old Rockwell motor, circa 1960-something. Here's a full-frontal that shows all the wiring info:  And here's a sexy-sexy upskirt shot that shows the model number and such:  And one last one that shows the info at the bottom of the panel:  Upon closer inspection, it looks to be actually rated at 20 amps, but that must be the stall load or something because like I said, only rarely do I ever trip the 15 amp breaker this thing is running on. I've done it a few times while powering up the saw, and only once or twice while actually cutting, and that was like 8/4 hardwood. I think when it does happen, it's cause all the kitchen lights are on at the same time. So yeah, 20 amp stall, maybe?
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Apr 12, 2011 04:30
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A friend of mine has a thing in his garage. It may have been part of a grow op, as it was apparently wired into the outlets in an attached shed-type structure and that place was...well, looking like a grow op moved out recently. Anyhow! I have pictures of the thing. Here you can see the cabinet the thing came in:  The thing we are interested in is the black thing on the right. The beige thing is just a timer that was added later, is my understanding. The outlets in the grow room may have been wired through said timer as well as the black thing in question. Here's a closeup of the label attached to the inside of the cabinet:  And here's a closeup of the label on the thing:  So the question(s): 1) What is the thing? 2) What is the thing for? 3) Is it worth keeping the thing? 4) If not, can the thing likely be sold for fat stacks of cash on craigslist/ebay? 5) Any further questions are left as an exercise to the reader.
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May 13, 2011 01:32
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sixide posted:I saw this a long time ago and it caused me to do some research. Sure, just makes the lamp cord extra pliable while operating the garage door.
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Oct 20, 2011 06:51
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I think my house is broken. It's going through light bulbs waaaaaay faster than I feel it ought to be. I don't really have any numbers, but I've never seen a house eat this many light bulbs so fast. Is there anything I can do to check if the power is lovely in some way or something? It's a fairly new construction, within the last 15 years, maybe even 10, but of course it's typical "build a whole neighborhood of townhouses at once probably with the lowest bidder contractor" type stuff.
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Oct 28, 2011 06:14
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That is so drat awesome.
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Feb 9, 2012 21:23
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Can anyone tell me about running power underground from a house to a detached building like a shed? What's involved/what sort of cost/needed materials, that sort of thing? Just curious, so it's okay to broad stroke it here. 
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Mar 8, 2012 00:52
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Cool, thanks for all the info. I've seen the cable company use some sort of rig that basically has a big knife blade go down a couple feet into the ground, and it just cuts a slot and lays a cable in as it goes, and the slot closes in behind. Is renting something like that an option, or is that what you're referring to when you say a trencher? (When I say trencher, I think of a ditch witch or something that leaves behind an honest-to-god trench, as opposed to this cable layer thing that doesn't murder your lawn.) Anyhow, this is all just pure speculation. I'm doing some home shopping and one of the places has a 1 acre lot that's fairly long and has a little shed at the far end, and I was just curious about what it would take to get some (lightweight) power out there. Like one or two 10A outlets at the most, I imagine.
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Mar 8, 2012 04:02
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Cool. Rest assured I'll check into local code and such before doing anything, if any of this even proves to be necessary and I decide I actually want to make it happen.
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Mar 8, 2012 04:19
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Okay, I pinged this thread a while back about running power to an external structure. I've now bought a house, and there's a shed at the back of it with floodlights, although I have yet to test them. So here's what I want to do: I want to build a greenhouse next to the shed, and run both power and water out to the greenhouse. If I were to dig a trench, would I need to have these two runs in their own trenches or separated by some minimum distance? If so, what do we think about daisy chaining the greenhouse off the shed so I'd only have to dig one trench for the water? Where do I go to find out about codes for this stuff in my area? (Harborcreek, PA.) I won't need a ton of power, but I will need at least enough to run some fans, pumps, and maybe a wifi router. That last because I'm a huge nerd and want to hook up some electronics to control all my greenhousery, and I also intend to have a nice little garden out there to hang out in. I may also like to run some ethernet (cat5, cat7, whatever) out there if the wifi isn't solid (thinking one router at the house, and one at the greenhouse to provide a physical network there, but if that bridge doesn't work well, I'd just run a physical line.) Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 21:11 on May 22, 2012 |
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May 22, 2012 21:09
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kid sinister posted:If you do end up doing this, low voltage wire isn't allowed to share the same raceway as line voltage. Besides, running data parallel nearby to line voltage introduces all kinds of crosstalk. Run it in a separate trench. Also, they do make cat5 & 6 rated for direct burial. Good point. Either way, I'm really hoping to just beam wifi out there (it's only about 300 feet, absolutely no obstructions even nearby) since it'll be a much easier installation.
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May 23, 2012 03:06
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Well, that's certainly true. In any event, I should be able to avoid that whole mess and just shoot a signal across the probably-optimal-conditions yard, and just put a repeater out there.
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May 23, 2012 19:36
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A couple quick wiring questions here. I have this little corner of my basement: You can see that switch there, it controls four lights in the basement. Two of those lights are in a side room and have their own pull strings. More on that later. The back side is easily accessible:  The wire running off to the left goes to a switch at the top of the basement stairs which also controls the same lights, the wire at the top goes to the first bulb in the web of four. You can see that coming in from the right here:  The other three wires go to the second and third bulbs (one of which also has a pull string) as well as back to the panel. I want to build a desk/workspace into this corner along the length of the block wall, and I'd like to have power and lights (controlled independently of the basement lights) along the length of it. Is there any way to tie into this existing circuit over by the switch at the bottom of the stairs, or should I just run a new line from the breaker panel or thereabouts? Maybe put in a junction box (blue) and run some conduit (in red) as shown below? I'm guessing not, since by the time the wires get to where I need them, they're all controlled by the switches, but I was curious if there was some clever way to do this that wouldn't involve a whole new run.  Also, do I need to use conduit for such a thing, or is it okay to just use romex or whatever? Cost isn't really an issue but of course saving money is always good. Of course, I require that whatever I do here be up to code. Here's a crude map I drew that illustrates the current state of things as well as the location of my desired power. Nothing is to scale, but hopefully you sort of get the idea.  Of course, since it's all in the basement and everything is readily accessible, it'd probably be best to just run a new line, I guess I'm mostly just looking for a sanity check. If I want the basement to all be on the same breaker, would it be best to just clip the line before it hits the first bulb, put in a junction there (just left of the lower-left bulb in the map), and then run from there to the south wall and down to the level I need it at? Also, re: those two lights in the side room: how about I remove both the connections to the main room, hook the two lights together, and then put a switch on the wall just inside the room, which would in turn be connected to my new junction box? e: Oh, also, what's the right kind of box to use for this? Mounting on wooden joists/studs, and then on concrete if I have to on the south wall, but hopefully on some 2x4s that I'll mount on the wall as support structure for the desk. Metal, or plastic? Metal I guess? 
Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Jun 4, 2012 |
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Jun 4, 2012 04:48
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The house is pretty new, built in 2007. Very well built, too, I should post a picture of the panel and associated bits. The lights in that side room are slaves to the light switches, they just also have pull cords so you can leave them off when the basement light is on. I'm planning on putting pegboard up on the south wall where the new outlets are going to be, can I just run romex behind that down to a junction box under the bench I'm putting in?
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Jun 5, 2012 01:11
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All righty, so, romex from the one bulb box, through the joists above, to another box at the top, and then conduit behind the pegboard to outlet boxes. That should be a pretty easy installation.
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Jun 5, 2012 02:40
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moonshine is...... posted:If the conduit you are running in is going to be more than 24" in length you should probably mount a metal 4 square box as the junction box. That way you can switch to THHN in the junction box then run that in the conduit. Make sure to use all the proper fittings, use GFCI receptacles, etc. What is THHN?
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Jun 5, 2012 03:39
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Ahh, gotcha, thanks.
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Jun 5, 2012 03:55
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That reminds me, I wanted to post a picture from my basement. I don't know how it looks to other people, but it looks pretty organized to me, especially compared to every other place I've seen. Don't mind the 3-way on the bottom outlet: that was my doing for my cable modem & wifi router until I move them somewhere more permanent. Probably upstairs somewhere, but at least that'll be a cinch since all those coax lines are labelled for which room they connect to. 
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Jun 7, 2012 03:57
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Tell me about cracking open my breaker panel and adding an entirely new circuit. I've never done such a thing before, so I'm not really sure if this is something I should be doing, or if I'd be better off just paying someone to come in and do it for me, or if it maybe even needs to have a permit to go with the work. What I want to do: I use my garage as a shop, and a lot of my tools need at least 20A service. I would like to have 30A service around the perimeter of said garage, and while brainstorming last night, I spotted a REALLY easy path to do so, so now I'm wanting that to happen sooner rather than later. Currently, there's just a single 15A breaker, which is the same as my last home, and I practically wore that thing out from constantly tripping it. So yeah, want to add a new line to the breaker panel. And once that's done, what wire should I use to actually make the run to the shop?
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Jun 14, 2012 13:46
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I think the "mysterious danger" of the panel, at least in my case, comes down to how frequently I'm in there, and the notion that (at least perceptually) it's the last line of defense against the Deadly Deadly Mains. I dunno, something like that. Anyhow, I'm stoked now and am hoping to at least the line out to the garage hooked up this weekend. All the conduit and outlets I'll need to install will have to wait until later, but the biggest step is just getting power out there in the first place.
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Jun 14, 2012 23:09
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That's actually good to know. Yes, I tripped the 15A breaker nearly every goddamned time I laid into a piece of thick walnut or maple with my table saw. Super annoying, not to mention dangerous since the lights were on the same circuit. My table saw itself is rated at 20A. Maybe I don't get it because I was thinking a breaker would take any load up to its rating, is that a faulty understanding? Whatever I end up doing, it'll be code-worthy. For this installation, I'm planning on running conduit around the perimeter of the garage and dropping down to outlets as needed. Should I post pictures and a more extensive list of requirements before I start buying supplies? To go further, I certainly could put in a sub panel, I'm not against that. Would definitely be nice to have separate circuits for the major items, anyhow, so maybe I should do that. Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Jun 15, 2012 |
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Jun 15, 2012 03:44
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Ahhhhhh, I gotcha now. Maybe I'll run a bunch of separate circuits from a sub panel then. Unless I do that, I fear I'd still be tripping the circuit all the time even if I made it a 20A because there'll be extra lights, an angry table saw (or planer or jointer or band saw or lathe or whatever), some dust collection, and whatever other random crap I have running at any given moment. The garage is attached, or more accurately, integral. I'll post pictures of what I'm working with a little later on.
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Jun 15, 2012 15:45
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ncumbered_by_idgits posted:How many spaces do you have available in your main panel? quote:How far is it from the main panel to the garage and what is the degree of difficulty? Might be easier to just run a few circuits from the main and skip the sub. quote:If it's only you working out there, there's a limit to how many things would be running at the same time. Might put a dedicated circuit in for the dust collector, and then maybe some of the other machines can share a circuit since you can only operate one at a time. quote:Keep in mind (depending on your location) that all receptacles now require ground-fault protection.
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Jun 15, 2012 18:01
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I recently wall-mounted my tv. I'd like to put in a couple plates so I can run power/hdmi through the wall, since I don't want just a hole in the wall behind it with the cables fished through. The hdmi is fine, I can just get a typical hdmi plate and a right-angle cable to fit behind the tv. not sure what to do about the power, though. Is there any sort of "recessed" power outlet type deal I could install? Or if I could find a short, low-profile right-angle power cord for my tv, but I'm not sure that's any more likely...I'd need one that is both right-angle at the tv, and right-angle at the wall, and I haven't turned anything up via google yet. It's a samsung that takes a normal computer power cord type plug. Any suggestions?
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Aug 10, 2012 02:26
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Oh, sweet, that's perfect! I hadn't had any luck finding something like that yet, thanks a ton. I was really hoping to find something that won't require special-order cables so that it'll work right out of the box for the next guy, y'know? Awesome. e: So wait, does this thing just take whatever thing I have? So like a typical $1 outlet and plate would go inside there on one of the faces? I just want to make sure I'm reading it right. ee: Extra sweet, it's on amazon prime. Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Aug 10, 2012 |
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Aug 10, 2012 04:54
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:You can't cause the thing to collapse with a 3/4" drill. I think you underestimate what extreme determination can do with a 3/4" drill.  Quick question: am I allowed to run 14/3 romex (or "14/2 with ground", as the wire I have handy says) inside metal conduit? And if not, what do I use instead? Also, can someone just sanity-check my work, make sure I put this thing together right? It's going to go under the workbench up against the wall, I was just assembling it there because it's easier to work on while I get everything measured/cut/wires run, etc. I just want to make sure I'm not overlooking some stupid, painfully obvious thing.    Also, this is the wire I want to use in it, since I have a bunch of it handy:  The whole thing will be fed off a new 15A line from the breaker box which I have yet to install, and will hook up to that via the nearest box. e: Meh, I just went ahead and did it with that wire. Everything I read made it sound like it's not normal, due to running romex through conduit being a hassle, but there's no (national) code disallowing it, provided you still meet all the conduit fill requirements and such. In this case, one line in 1/2" conduit, and nothing over 4' long, I'm pretty sure it'll meet code. Got the thing installed, and now I just need to run a line back to the panel to drop in the new circuit. Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Aug 11, 2012 |
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Aug 11, 2012 03:36
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Yeah, it's going in the garage. The first outlet in the run is going to be gfci, that's on my list of things to pick up today (currently it's just an empty receptacle at that end, and not connected to any source of power at all.) Here's where it's actually going, on the underside of the workbench I was building it on. Probably doesn't matter, but that entire wall is an interior wall (there's a hallway and bedroom on the other side.)  In this case, things will be getting connected/disconnected basically never. This entire run is going in for the tools that will be more or less permanently installed on the bench (saw, grinder, drill press, shop vac, air compressor, things like that) as well as a couple power strips, which will be mounted on top of the work bench for routine plugging/unplugging of stuff, or maybe on the sides of the legs at front. Either way, these particular plugs will see very little use. How often do I have to put one of those little conduit brace dealies on? These are all just shy of 4-foot spans, but at the middle of each there's a very easy place I can put a clamp on, bringing it to just under 2-foot suspensions, if needed.
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Aug 11, 2012 22:23
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:Only if the wires themselves are labeled. Cheap 14/2NM is made with THHN, but the insulation isn't marked on the individual conductors, so it's not legal. quote:You need one within 3' of every box. So one in the middle of every run is fine.
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Aug 12, 2012 00:49
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dwoloz posted:I was under the impression that only THHN/THWN were allowed in conduit, not NM, due to heat I will also be running a 12ga 20A circuit, but only for certain tools (namely, my table saw.) Also, the lights are all going to be on a separate circuit from the 15A circuit I ran today, so that'll help distribute some of the load. If I find I'm tripping the breaker with the little stuff on the 15A tool circuit, I'll just go back and rewire it. Now that I've got all the conduit and ports in the joists and everything, replacing it would be a fairly quick task. For now, though, I'm leaving it, since it's already in. Also, I just decided to put in a GFCI breaker instead of fiddling with GFCI outlets. That's valid, right? Since the breaker is GFCI, the entire circuit is protected? I'm doing this for both my 15A general-use loop, and my 20A table saw loop. Anyhow, I've got everything for the 15A circuit run all the way back to the panel, just waiting for my wife to get back so I'm not alone when I start mucking about in the panel. On a side note, is this bit of conduit and box "overkill" or just "proper procedure?" Inside that box is where I transition from THHN to romex. Reason I ask is because right next to it is a conduit that comes into the basement from the garage that just terminates with a little protective sleeve on the end of the conduit, no transition box or anything. I don't know if that was put in by the original electrician, or the owner. You can sort of see it right behind that yellow gas line.  P.S. Bending conduit is kinda fun.  
Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Aug 12, 2012 |
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Aug 12, 2012 23:04
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kid sinister posted:GFCI = GFCI, whether it's a breaker version or a receptacle version. Personally, I would have put it in a receptacle in the garage, just so that you didn't have to run all the way back to the panel to reset it in case you do trip it. Plus they're a lot cheaper. I was going to use the knockout on the back of the box, and really wanted to, but the space available prevented it, since I didn't want the port through the wall to be any further from the existing lines, which meant there was no space for a box right next to them. On the garage side of that wall (you can see it in one of the pictures) there's a doorway right there and I don't want crap coming out of the step in the wall under the door any more than is absolutely necessary. Part of the reason I opted to put in the gfci breaker was because I don't necessarily know what my plans are for extending that circuit to other parts of the garage, and I felt it would be easier to just ensure the entire thing was protected. As for that open-ended conduit that was already there, I'm not sure what it's for, but there are some pretty beefy lines running through it and it heads directly across that wall of the garage and through the far wall to the outside, where it dives underground and...oh, you know what, I just realized what it's for: they used to have a hot tub out on the patio, so the lines running into that conduit are connected to two tied 50A breakers...
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Aug 13, 2012 02:32
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Oh, what, really? You mean if I'd run my cables straight into the port/conduit I put in, I could have done without the box as well? Darnit, that would have saved me a few minutes and a little bit of money...not much, but still. It's funny because my run goes to the left into that box, then out, away from the wall, and then back to the right to make the same run as the other cable, just with a little jog in the path. On the other hand, I still needed to switch from thhn to romex so I guess the box was still needed for that. New question: Basically, I have romex between the four outlets, but thhn on the actual feed running up to the first conduit. Is it okay for me to run some 12ga thhn in that same conduit? I don't think it'd overshoot the fill restrictions, and my 12ga (20A) line would fork off before it even got to the first outlet. Maybe I'll draw a picture... e: Here's a horrible drawing:  Although the more I think about it, the more I think I might like to actually have my 20A outlet off the far end of the 15A set, which means running 12ga thhn down the whole thing, and if I'm doing that, I might as well do it right and replace that romex with thhn anyhow, in which case, the real question becomes: can I have 12ga/20A thhn and 14ga/15A thhn in the same 1/2" conduit without violating any rules? Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Aug 15, 2012 |
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Aug 15, 2012 17:24
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Cool, guess I'm doing some rewiring tonight e: Well, that was pretty easy. Fortunately, I didn't have to pull the whole assembly down to get the romex out, since my runs were straight and so short. And of course, the thhn went in smooth as silk. Got all the outlets hooked up again, and my 12ga run is hanging out the far end, waiting for my to put in some more conduit to run out to where the outlet(s?) will be. I also need to run the 12ga romex from the junction in the basement back to the panel and drop the breaker in, but I have all the supplies for that so it should go pretty quick. Thanks a ton, guys, for all your help. I feel like the quality of work I ended up doing here was vastly superior to what I would have ended up with otherwise, and certainly cost less than hiring someone to come in and do it. On a side note, I have a couple lingo questions: I keep hearing people using "GFCI" and "GFI" seemingly interchangeably. There's no actual difference, yeah? And two, do you actually say "T H H N" or like "thin" or "thhhnnnnnn" or something? I just don't want to sound like a greenhorn.
Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Aug 16, 2012 |
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Aug 15, 2012 19:25
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Whereas "fix this or I call the fire marshall" will probably get it fixed, but you may find your rent gets hiked every month until you move out, or you get booted when your lease is up, whichever is sooner. Also depending on the quality of the place, and the quality of the landlord, he might actually PREFER the place burned down so he could collect that sweet, sweet insurance dough.
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Aug 22, 2012 03:59
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Just out of curiosity, how do I determine how many wires are allowed?
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Aug 24, 2012 18:00
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They could be protected by another outlet, or at the breaker box. You can get a GFCI tester at home depot or lowes for like $3. You plug it in, press the test button, and it'll either trip or not. Here's one, although you can absolutely get them cheaper: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202867890/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=gfci+tester&storeId=10051 imho, a tester like that is something everyone should bring with when home shopping. Also reveals outlets that appear to have a ground but don't, or are just straight up wired wrong. Heaven knows I found a lot of both when I was looking. :/
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Sep 12, 2012 22:39
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That would have made for a great series of followup posts in SH/SC's Haus of Tech Support.
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Sep 19, 2012 02:12
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How is that anything but a short circuit at the bottom of the pic, there? 
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Oct 6, 2012 21:45
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