Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Hobbies, Crafts, & Houses > Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

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insta: Jan 28, 2009

Ok, I have some weird behavior with a branch I'm helping a friend install. We are replacing aluminum AC in the unfinished basement (the cable runs the outlets in the living room upstairs). We pulled 12/2 from the breaker panel through a 20A breaker, into one junction box in the rafters. This feeds two outlets. A 12ga run comes out of this box into another junction box. This feeds three outlets. One of these 3 outlets is a GFCI (for a fish tank). With the GFCI in the circuit, two of the outlets read 197V and my little "3 neon light" tester has the middle orange and left red neons blinking quickly. There's a 108v potential between neutral and ground on the GFCI.

... the gently caress? Did we just get a bad GFCI? It's only when it's plugged in. And, yes, we're on the right terminals of the GFCI.

# ¿ Nov 12, 2010 09:10

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 20:13

insta: Jan 28, 2009

grover posted:

Are you sure? Also, sounds like you may have a bad neutral bond somewhere. Double-check your wire nuts. You didn't use those back-stabs for your splices, I hope!

Yep. The GFCI's "downstream" terminals are still covered by the warning sticker.

All the splices are done in the basement, inside of plastic junction boxes. A single NM-B cable feeds into each receptacle box, where the wires are stabbed into the back of the outlet. The splices are either two 12's and two 14's, or one 12 and three 14's. In both cases the wire nut sits snugly, takes about 4 twists to secure, but we occasionally missed a wire and had to redo the wire nut.

# ¿ Nov 12, 2010 15:11

insta: Jan 28, 2009

grover posted:

If you plug the tester into any of the other outlets, how does it read? Still sounds to me like a poorly connected (open) neutral. Normal receptacles have no connection between hot and ground, but GFCI receptacles have some circuitry. If the neutral is open, you will read voltage on it, due to voltage through the GFCI. The GFCI will fail to function, as it cannot create a circuit. If a bad neutral connection is the problem you'd see the same thing if anything (a light or something) is plugged into any of the outlets that show higher voltage.

Two of the total 5 outlets exhibited the weird blinky behavior, and what's more strange is there was one per junction box. The GFCI was illuminated properly, and furthermore the "test GFCI" button on the plug actually worked.

Are you inclined to think that the GFCI outlet is not bad, and we should try re-nutting the junctions in the basement?

# ¿ Nov 12, 2010 17:25

insta: Jan 28, 2009

What are the rules about 220v in rooms that aren't utility rooms? I'm curious about potentially pulling some 220v to my computer room, and installing it against the one wall that all the computers are plugged into.

# ¿ Dec 6, 2010 18:25

insta: Jan 28, 2009

TacoHavoc posted:

Server equipment or a large AC I'd guess.

Nah, in fact it's just 3 PCs -- mine, hers, fileserver. The room has a sag anyway because it's 14ga farthest away from the breaker, so I'd be happy either pulling 12ga to it or switching it for 220. All of the PCs and monitors can handle 220, and nearly all switchmode power supplies are more efficient (read: cooler) when using 220 as an input.

# ¿ Dec 8, 2010 04:08

insta: Jan 28, 2009

babyeatingpsychopath posted:

I hadn't thought about it, but that's pretty clever. The only funky part would be finding 220V plugs for your computers.

Hmm, well, since there's apparently not a rule against it ...

I've found dual NEMA 6-15 outlets, and NEMA 6-15 to IEC 320N power cables.

What're the rules for using normal 12/2ga wire? Just tape up the neutral to mark it as hot?

# ¿ Dec 9, 2010 05:42

insta: Jan 28, 2009

dietcokefiend posted:

Interesting, so basically a beefed up light switch? Would I need two of those (one for each 120v line?)

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/SWS-13/1.html :colbert:

# ¿ Dec 13, 2010 07:35

insta: Jan 28, 2009

kid sinister posted:

He would run regular 12/3, with red and black connected to the hots, then white to the neutral. The ground is always the ground and can't be repurposed. In this case it would connect to the receptacle's frame, or the box if it's steel.

The real question is how insta is going to do computer-grade surge suppression off a non-NEMA 5-15 outlet...

Hmm, didn't think of the surge suppression / UPS. That's going to kill the project, unless we go whole-house suppression. Rats

# ¿ Dec 26, 2010 23:25

insta: Jan 28, 2009

Can you use backstabs and screws at the same time on an outlet?

# ¿ Jan 11, 2011 18:02

insta: Jan 28, 2009

^ bummer dude.

New fans aren't that much?

Anyway, I'm wanting to wire an outlet to my garage for a welder. I picked a sample one on Harbor Freight's website just for numbers. None of the welders I found used more than 40A @ 240v. So, I figure I should run a 50A line. Eyeballing a 50 foot run (subject to measuring), are the following SKUs on Home Depot's website what I'd need to put this together?

Now, I'm just going for 'rough idea'. If I don't actually have a SquareD breaker panel, I won't get SquareD breakers, and so forth. I just need to know if I'm on the right track, or if I should be overrating more than that (bearing in mind no welder I'm going to get can keep 100% duty cycle @ 40A)

Wire: http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...catalogId=10053 (6/3, boo. Is 6/2 ok if I can find it?)

Breaker: http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...catalogId=10053

Outlet: http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...catalogId=10053

Does that style outlet need a junction box behind it, and if so, will a standard plastic one work like I use for normal 120v outlets?

# ¿ May 5, 2011 02:20

insta: Jan 28, 2009

insta posted:

Anyway, I'm wanting to wire an outlet to my garage for a welder. I picked a sample one on Harbor Freight's website just for numbers. None of the welders I found used more than 40A @ 240v. So, I figure I should run a 50A line. Eyeballing a 50 foot run (subject to measuring), are the following SKUs on Home Depot's website what I'd need to put this together?

Now, I'm just going for 'rough idea'. If I don't actually have a SquareD breaker panel, I won't get SquareD breakers, and so forth. I just need to know if I'm on the right track, or if I should be overrating more than that (bearing in mind no welder I'm going to get can keep 100% duty cycle @ 40A)

Wire: http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...catalogId=10053 (6/3, boo. Is 6/2 ok if I can find it?)

Breaker: http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...catalogId=10053

Outlet: http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...catalogId=10053

Does that style outlet need a junction box behind it, and if so, will a standard plastic one work like I use for normal 120v outlets?

I'm wondering if my question got lost in the sea of fan-related ones :ohdear:

# ¿ May 11, 2011 14:39

insta: Jan 28, 2009

chedemefedeme posted:

It depends upon the device. Brown outs are less harmful than surges. TVs tend to be ok in my experience. Desktop computers do not like it at all and are subject to a variety of physical damages, not to mention possible data loss. Laptops will tend to be ok because of their internal batteries. Wireless routers may reboot but won't get hurt. Printers won't care unless printing when it happens.

It's mainly desktop PCs that will get screwed up bad by this, when we're talking purely about brownouts. If you factor in issues with grounding or neutrals or surges or a variety of other conditions that quite possibly exist in his situation...all bets are off. It should be fixed.

I had a desktop computer on an overloaded apartment circuit once. I upgraded the video card to an 8800GTX (a notoriously high-current draw card at the time). First time I switched into 3D mode and actually spun up the card, the breaker half-tripped and started spraying sparks like a fountain into my laundry room. :stare:

# ¿ Oct 19, 2011 06:23

insta: Jan 28, 2009

IOwnCalculus posted:

Jebus that's gotta be bright. Might pick up a few of those for my garage.

Still, though, there's got to be some movement to make a lower-powered socket that you could safely / to code wire up a large number of on a single breaker, and only make bulbs up to ~20W actual draw with that socket size?

They are bright. A buddy of mine and I found the 300W bulbs a few weeks ago, and in our amazement took one to the lamp aisle. It was bright enough to cast a shadow upwards on some of the other lamps despite the overhead lighting. Even in the 20-30 seconds before it's warmed up, it's too bright to stare at.

edit: the socket you want is GU24. It's the future Energy-Star-proposed socket for newer low-wattage CFLs.

# ¿ Oct 20, 2011 02:54

insta: Jan 28, 2009

Dimmable CFLs don't work with all dimmers

The older dimmer in our living room works perfectly with a set of dimmables, but the same set on a newer dimmer in the bedroom made the bulbs' ballast squeal. Both dimmers are solid state.

# ¿ Mar 5, 2012 00:25

insta: Jan 28, 2009

My buddy is having trouble with his 220V tig welder. We measured the voltages on his panel, and got:

code:


  (Leg) -- 118V -- (N) -- 118V -- (Leg)
   |                                 |
    \____________ 185V! ____________/

Basically, we get 118V measuring between any side and neutral, and only 185V between both. Many houses on the block are doing this with voltage. We decided this is the reason the welder has low power. No lights sag when the welder strikes the arc.

Ideas?

# ¿ May 7, 2012 04:34

insta: Jan 28, 2009

Main panel exhibits the same symptoms, as does his neighbor.

# ¿ May 7, 2012 14:27

insta: Jan 28, 2009

moonshine is...... posted:

In a lot of jurisdictions it is illegal to run Romex in conduit over 24". THHN/THWN is just individual copper wire with insulation, you can pick it up at Home Depot at a reasonable price. Here's a link to what I'm talking about http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbmad/h_d2/Navigation?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

I want to run a 220 air compressor and welder in my garage, which is about 30 feet from my service entrance. Expected load if they're both running is 75A. How can I accomplish this?

# ¿ Jun 5, 2012 06:47

insta: Jan 28, 2009

some texas redneck posted:

Transformer smelled lovely, btw, and was incredibly hot (even the cord was very hot to the touch). I'm getting 9 ohms across the prongs on the plug, which, if my math is correct, works out to about 13.3 amps. Secondary is open, so hopefully it didn't send 120 volts to the lights. Glad I pulled up when I did, that transformer normally sits just outside my bedroom window.

No excuse that this was done, but transformers are subject to impedance of the alternating current at 60hz. The "effective resistance" is higher than a DC ohmmeter will show.

# ¿ Jul 30, 2012 07:14

insta: Jan 28, 2009

+1, I accidentally yanked a ceiling fan out of the ceiling by tugging on the fan and light pullchains at the same time. At the other end of the fan was the remnants of an old plastic box. It doesn't take much force for a 30lb fan to exceed the weight capacity of those boxes. I think they're better suited for chandeliers or something that doesn't require motion and interaction.

# ¿ Aug 4, 2012 16:51

insta: Jan 28, 2009

brnai posted:

assuming that my landlord isn't going to redo all of the wiring in the building

I dont' think that's something landlords can just ignore.

# ¿ Aug 22, 2012 01:08

insta: Jan 28, 2009

daslog posted:

It all depends how you play it. A frantic phone call of "ZOMG THIS OUTLET SPARKED AND SHORTED OUT MY MICROWAVE AND I PUT A MULTIMETER ON IT AND IT READS 170 VOLTS AND IT ALMOST BURNED DOWN YOUR PLACE" should get the reaction you are looking for.

Heh ... I had an outlet that I must have been running 12A on constantly at my first apartment. A big fat computer upgrade would dim the lights whenever the video card went into 3D mode (but just at the desktop was fine, this was an 8800GTX). After awhile the breaker finally gave it up, but rather than tripping, it went halfway and started arcing. I called maintenance at 10pm saying "there's a breaker shooting sparks into my laundry room", and turned it off with a broom handle. The maintenance guy shows up, looks at the charred breaker, shrugs, and goes "you got too many things plugged in mang", flips it back to on, and leaves. It took a surprising amount of harassing the landlord until they replaced it with a new breaker. I never had a problem after that.

# ¿ Aug 23, 2012 00:32

insta: Jan 28, 2009

FCKGW posted:

He also bought a Nissan Leaf and installed the charger himself, it may or may not be related to that outlet.

I like how the enormous fat power cord seems to be powered by 14/2.

I am surprised there's no speaker cable.

# ¿ Sep 3, 2012 04:38

insta: Jan 28, 2009

Get a DC rotary switch, a 5v wall wart, and 3 SPST SSRs on eBay. Then you can put it in a pretty enclosure too.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2013 06:35

insta: Jan 28, 2009

Outside of future owners wishing for my firey death, is there anything in code that prevents me from using solid state relays to control lighting fixtures in my (Kansas) house, and having the lightswitches be low-voltage? This lets me do things like control the SSRs with an Arduino or the like.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2013 20:27

insta: Jan 28, 2009

kid sinister posted:

How low would the voltage be? I actually ran into a problem with that for the switch to my parents' gas fireplace. If I remember correctly, the specs for the relay were so low (1.5V DC @ ~300mA I think) that a regular 120V switch wouldn't close and make contact.

Lots of HVAC equipment uses 24VAC for heating and cooling calls.

Speaking of low voltage, call me crazy but I think that I could see within the next decade or two that some type of USB-like plug will become standard in future homes, combining low voltage DC power and data/home networking.

The trigger voltage for most SSRs I've found is 3-32V at 10ma. I'd probably use 24V, and run thermostat wire or something similar. The Arduino/whatever could use simple BJTs to drive that.

# ¿ Feb 26, 2013 20:00

insta: Jan 28, 2009

Put wirenuts on the ends of each individual wire and bundle the whole set together. He will still test it though.

# ¿ Aug 12, 2013 13:41

insta: Jan 28, 2009

12v switch mode power supplies are a dime a dozen. Post the specs of it, we'll help you find a better one that won't burn your house down.

# ¿ Sep 30, 2013 14:49

insta: Jan 28, 2009

Motronic posted:

That is not a resistive load and will require AC.

LEDs. You need LEDs. You could run the whole thing for 12 hours on 2 AAA batteries.

Think about a book light that you can modify and put into a gutted lightbulb.

CFLs start their circuit with a full-bridge diode. They can run on AC or DC. Still, 120v is required.

14x 9v batteries stuck end-to-end will give you 127v across the terminals. A 13W CFL will draw about 100 milliamps. Since a 9v battery is about 400-600mah, you can expect approximately 4-6 hours of runtime. LEDs are definitely the easiest bet, but this is how you can use CFLs.

# ¿ Oct 29, 2013 02:09

insta: Jan 28, 2009

BANME.sh posted:

My staircase has two light switches. One at the top, and one at the bottom. The top switch acts as a "master" switch, meaning that when it's off, the bottom switch does nothing. It's really annoying as you can imagine. Is it possible to rewire so that both switches work, no matter if the other is on or off? Or is it more complicated than that.

I love the "master" switch description. It had to be invented by desperate real estate agents who needed to explain a miswired 3-way switch

# ¿ Jan 31, 2014 05:19

insta: Jan 28, 2009

PuTTY riot posted:

I seriously think the PO is trying to kill me. The hall bathroom vanity light hasn't worked since we moved in. Finally did a little investigating, and they had this combo 3 way switch next to a regular switch. Of course, my local home depot doesn't have a regular not-3-way double switch in white except in decora, which I didn't really want, but I guess that's my only choice unless I go buy a loving switch online. Meanwhile, the kitchen, which *should* have 3 way switches, has regular switches. I think the PO must've updated *some* of the fixtures, because the original construction seems to be done properly, but every time I uncover something that may have been changed at some point, it's just totally wrong. Look at this '3 way switch' poo poo in my kitchen:

Seriously?????

They sell gobs of them. They're on the lowest shelf and not advertised though. I just picked up two at HD for 68 cents each.

# ¿ Jul 30, 2014 22:46

insta: Jan 28, 2009

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9UjxG8sN1c

What the christ

# ¿ Oct 11, 2014 18:45

insta: Jan 28, 2009

Cat Hatter posted:

Thats...weird, but carry on then.

It's not *that* weird:

# ¿ Feb 18, 2015 07:57

insta: Jan 28, 2009

Aurium posted:

So I'm building a good size piece of equipment.

Among other things, it has a 300 watt heater (240v), a 1/2 hp motor (currently 240v, but can be setup for 120), a 300w power supply (120v) and a couple of hundred watts of misc computer and electronics.

I'd like to be able to power this conveniently. As it's a mix of 120 and 240, one of the newer style 4 prong outlets seems pretty convenient. Unfortunately, all of the 240v plugs around are the older 3prong hot hot ground style.

I could potentially do what most large appliances do, and simply pretend ground is neutral, but my understanding is that they can do this because they send such low loads down one of the 120v legs as they only power a timer/low power computer. I am continuously operating at least 300w, and probably closer to 5-600w, and sending that current down the ground line strikes me a somewhat less than good. In addition the 300w supply is unavoidably grounded to the case, and using the same as a live conductor seems problematic again.

The 240v plug is near a 120v plug, so I could use 2 plugs. I'd like to avoid this for the convince factor, not to mention that It just looks dumb.

But that got me thinking, how terrible would it be to run a short line from the 120v line's neutral, and go the the neutral of a new 4 wire plug, leaving the other 3 lines as they already are.

Properly a new neutral for a new 4 wire plug isn't going to happen.

Is there an accepted solution here? I'm guessing it's 2 plugs.

Use 240v power supplies for the computer equipment and the 3-prong 240v plug. Unless it's something super esoteric a 240v supply exists and can be plugged directly in (or your existing ones will work without modification)

# ¿ Feb 25, 2015 23:52

insta: Jan 28, 2009

H110Hawk posted:

Jesus christ that thing uses more current than my lawn mower.

I have a Blendtec. It was the smaller $400 model. It's got some crazy 20k RPM brushless motor in it, and can reduce six cups of straight ice cubes to slush in about 5 seconds with no clogs. I grind up ice just to avenge my old lovely blender, which died making a smoothie.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2016 14:52

insta: Jan 28, 2009

Yes. I am a DINKY consumer whore.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2016 06:22

insta: Jan 28, 2009

Electricity doesn't work that way, it doesn't matter which end he puts the fatter extension cord on. The run will drop voltage by the sum of resistances.

# ¿ Aug 14, 2016 21:10

insta: Jan 28, 2009

BeastOfExmoor posted:

Ah, I didn't consider the voltage drop. I guess I can just plug in the cables and see what the voltage is on the far end.

I'm less concerned with the voltage drop (or was, I'll have to see what the end result it) than the amperage being pulled trough the cords themselves. As I understand it (which certainly may be incorrect) if the device is pulling 10amps at the far end of the cord, some larger amount is actually being sent through the line from where it begins with some amount of that getting converted to heat along the way.

Edit: Forgot to add that I believe the amount converted to heat relates to the resistance of the cable which would relate to the gauge.

Its the other way around -- you'll lose voltage throughout the run. You'll lose less voltage along the 12awg cable, but since the 16awg is either before or after it, the total loss is the same.

The voltage loss is also proportional to the impedance of the device being run. A multimeter draws fuckall in terms of power (microamps?), so the voltage drop won't show up. You'd have to measure the voltage with your device at full amp draw to get a meaningful voltage drop.

# ¿ Aug 15, 2016 04:33

insta: Jan 28, 2009

There's a large gulf between when a child learns to pluck those out, and when you can explain to them that it will hurt. However, inside of this age range they are aware that the power strip is a frightening device they should avoid ... they just don't realize it's because of the paperclips and steel wool you put in the strip's outlet before flicking the switch.

# ¿ Oct 16, 2016 16:02

insta: Jan 28, 2009

02-6611-0142-1 posted:

i meant the bad and wrong thing, actually.

You can use a PC power supply for this. Short the green wire on the 20/24 pin plug to its black neighbor, and 12 volts will come out of any yellow and black wire pair.

# ¿ Nov 27, 2016 06:11

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 20:13

insta: Jan 28, 2009

I'll piggyback on that question.

I have LED strip lighting on my deck. I have an outdoor 24v supply ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01IU8QBCO/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 ), that I was going to mount to the 6x6's underneath the deck (vertically), and use low-voltage wire to power the LED strips. I was planning to cut the end off an extension cord, put weatherproof heatshrink crimps on it, and use that to power the supply. The extension cord would be plugged or unplugged as lighting was wanted, into the existing outdoor outlet that's been on the side of my house since I moved in.

How many rules am I breaking?

# ¿ Nov 28, 2016 19:51

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Hobbies, Crafts, & Houses > Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

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