Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Hobbies, Crafts, & Houses > Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

mrglynis: Mar 10, 2009

I've got an 80yr old Mill House with some Knob and Tube wiring in the attic. Thats the only place its still active. The K&T is used only to power the ceiling fixtures. Here's the thing. The wiring has been illegally spliced into. The K&T doesn't run from the box. There is a "newer" wire type coming from the box into the attic. It then is spliced into the K&T. I put "newer" in quotes because its not romex new. Its rather old in itself, just newer than K&T. I'm not sure exactly what kind of wiring it is. The writing on some of it says: 14-2 Anaconda Dutrex 600V. And theres only 2 wires. Hot and neutral, no ground.

Also at each of the ceiling boxes the K&T is spliced into about 6-8" from the box and that newer wiring is what is actually running into the boxes. Its also whats running down to the switches as well.

Ok, so heres what I want to do. I want all that K&T gone. I have 50 bags of blow-in insulation taking up my whole garage, that I cant install while the K&T is active. Now, what I was hoping to do was to just splice in romex to the "newer" wiring at the point it connects to the K&T and then redo everything. The only snag with that, is that theres no ground wire. I'm therefor assuming that the only reasonable option is to run all new romex all the way from the box, and just replace the whole shebang?

I hope all this makes sense. I took pictures, but I'm having trouble getting them on my computer. I'll update the post if i get them on here.

One last question. Is it ok to have more that 1 hot wire running into 1 breaker. I ask because 3 different breakers at my box have 2 hot wires running to them. I know that regarding outlets and such you can only have 1 wire per screw. I was wondering if the same rule applies at the box too. Thanks in advance for any advice you can give.

edit:got the pictures here they are:
http://www.imagebam.com/image/a4a70529349599
The main box, highlighted area is where the multiple hot wires are connected under one breaker.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/0100e129349602
This shows the main splice where it connects to the K&T. Red is the main line coming into the attic from the box. The yellow is running off to power the bathroom and 3rd bedroom addition.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/5b2a8629349601
This shows the wiring at one of the ceiling boxes. Yellow is K&T. Blue is the 14-2 Anaconda Dutrex 600V mentioned above. Red is running down to the switch.

Hopefully these pics will make things a little clearer. If you need more pics or info, just ask. Thanks.

mrglynis fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Mar 11, 2009

# ¿ Mar 11, 2009 04:47

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 09:04

mrglynis: Mar 10, 2009

Anyone got any advice for my situation I posted about at the bottom of the first page?

# ¿ Mar 15, 2009 16:47

mrglynis: Mar 10, 2009

grover posted:

Didn't see your photo edit. Sorry to say, but everything you've posted here is wrong. It's not legal to land 2 wires under 1 breaker terminal unless it's US listed for it (and I doubt it is). Flying splices are illegal, regardless of the setting. Also, grandfathering rules only apply to upstream things. Like, you can add romex to extend a K&T run, but if you replace an obsolete fuse box with a breaker panel, the entire house was required to have been upgraded. So, these are all violations.

The best thing you can do is replace the main panel with a larger one, and bring the whole house up to modern code. It's probably prohibitively expensive, though. Easy ways to fix the biggest safety issues for cheap: pigtail the double-wires under the breakers with wire nuts, and install connection boxes in your attic. It won't make your house completely NEC-legal, but may postpone a visit from your local fire department.

Thanks for the reply. I really do appreciate it. I pretty much anticipated everything you said. I had an electrician come out to talk to me today. Where do I begin?
The power coming from the street doesnt come down into a box. The ground is essentially non-existent. The wiring is exposed coming out of the meter and into the crawlspace(ie:no conduit). Aside from the aformentioned problems in the box, The main neutral wire is exposed. There's no sheathing on it. Theres no grounding bar in the box. Neutral and grounds are together on the neutral bus bar. The box itself is more than 5 feet away from the meter. Meaning theres no shutoff between the meter and the box in the house.The box is mounted on the wall as opposed to recessed into it. There is an 8 gauge wire for the range run up through the floor and into the bottom of the box. Its run in some plastic conduit that isnt secured to anything. The main supply is aluminum wiring. They tied copper wires under the main to run to a sub-box for the dryer. I think that might cover all the major problems.

Heres what he proposed:
Install main ground systyem -$518.00
Install cold water ground system - $349
Install outside electrical sysyem - $1986
Install service mast - $845
Install SER Cable - $1251
Install 200 Amp Panel - $1986
Inspection Fee - $150
TFS charge - $9.75

Total - $7094.75

My plumbing system includes plastic piping, so the cold water ground system is out. All of the above is just to update and fix the outside power and the box. That would give me a box with power outside, and a box inside. It DOES NOT include updating the wiring in the house. Seeing as all the wiring is pretty much 2 wire it all needs to be replaced. Rough (non written) estimate is ~$3-400 per circuit, just for the "home-run". That doesnt include running to all the additional outlets.

Anyways, I just wanted to give an update on my situation. I'll probably get a couple other quotes at least before I green light anything. (not to mention going to the bank). Thanks again for you reply Grover.

To anyone out there planning on buying an older home. HIRE A loving ELECTRICIAN TO INSPECT IT!!! Do not rely soley on the general home inspector. You may or may not end up with a hack like me. Just for laughs heres what my inspection report says:

ELECTRIC SERVICE:

The overhead electric service wire entered the home on the right side wall. The electric meter was located on the exterior wall. The service wire entered a General Electric service panel, located on the rear pantry wall with a 100 amps and 120/240 volt rated capacity. The branch circuits within the panel were copper and aluminum in the 240 volt circuits.
These branch circuits and the circuit breaker to which they were attached appeared to be appropriately matched. The visible house wiring consisted primarily of the Romex type and appeared to be in good condition.

A representative number of installed lighting fixtures, switches, and receptacles located throughout the home were inspected and were found to be functional. The grounding and polarity of receptacles within six feet of plumbing fixtures, and those attached to ground fault circuit interrupters (GFCI), if present, were also tested. All GFCI receptacles and GFCI circuit breakers should be tested monthly. There were GFCI protected circuits located in the bathroom. The present and tested GFCI's were not functional. The G.F.C.I. outlet in the bathroom is not grounded and will not trip during an over current. The outlet must be grounded.

The electrical service appeared to be adequate. Alarms, electronic keypads, remote control devices, landscape lighting, telephone and television, and all electric company equipment were beyond the scope of this inspection. There were no major visual defects observed in the electrical system.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2009 19:01

mrglynis: Mar 10, 2009

grover posted:

I want to comment on a few of your comments. You will want to get another electrician to come out and take a look, a number of things this guy said aren't quite accurate:

The power coming from the street doesnt come down into a box.
How does it come down? There are approved methods for transitioning from the aerial wire to SE that don't need a box. (Mine is just spliced to SE in a little hood below the peak of the roof.) Usually, the power company owns the line from the street to the meter, if I'm not mistaken.

The line comes straight down into the meter. Out of the bottom of the meter the wiring comes down and shoots into the crawlspace, where it runs along the joists to the other side of the house where the box is. I'll try and take pictures tomorrow when I get home from work.

The ground is essentially non-existent.
This is a BIG problems and needs fixed!

Agreed big time!

The wiring is exposed coming out of the meter and into the crawlspace(ie:no conduit).
What kind of wire is it? Some times of wire (SE, for example) is perfectly fine like this.

I'll try to take pics tomorrow.

Aside from the aformentioned problems in the box, The main neutral wire is exposed. There's no sheathing on it.
This needs to be fixed, but it;ts not quite as dangerous as it seems, as the neutral wire is grounded in your panel and grounded at the pole. Return current is flowing through the neutral, the ground wire, and the dirt beneath your feet. Theres' really not much difference electrically between any of these wires. The poco rarely sheathes the neutral aerial wire.

Theres no grounding bar in the box. Neutral and grounds are together on the neutral bus bar.
This is fine for the main panel. The neutral must be bonded to ground at one point, and it's the ground bar. (Subpanels must have separate ground and neutral bars.)

I think maybe the problem is that since the whole system is essentially un-grounded that it might be more of an issue.

The box itself is more than 5 feet away from the meter. Meaning theres no shutoff between the meter and the box in the house.
This isn't a problem; it's normal design. The main breaker in your panel is the service disconnect. The meter serves as the disconnect if you need to service the service conductors. I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure the code never mentions 5' or sets any distance- they just don't want you putting the panel on the opposite side of the house and running unfused service wire where it can get damaged.

I wasnt aware there was any type of shut off at the meter itself. If there isnt then unless the power company shuts off the power there will always be a hot line between the meter and the box running through the crawlspace.

The box is mounted on the wall as opposed to recessed into it.
Perfectly acceptable. Simple an aesthetic choice.

I understand this point, and I agree, but for aesthetic choices I personally would prefer it recessed and have all the wires running through the wall.

There is an 8 gauge wire for the range run up through the floor and into the bottom of the box. Its run in some plastic conduit that isnt secured to anything.
The conduit should be securely fastened, but this doesn't seem like it's necessarily a violation aside from that. (We'd have to know more)

I dont think he mentioned it as being a violation so much as just kinda lazy work. They just drilled through the floor and ran it up as opposed to fishing it in the wall.

The main supply is aluminum wiring.
Not a problem IF it's done right, using UL fittings approved for use with Aluminum.

The main being aluminum isnt a concern for me. Its the part below, with having the copper wires under the same breaker screws.

They tied copper wires under the main to run to a sub-box for the dryer.
Does the main breaker kill power to the dryer, too, or did they tap off of the feeder side of the bus? This *may* be OK, but there are some specific rules for this that might not have been followed.

The G.F.C.I. outlet in the bathroom is not grounded and will not trip during an over current. The outlet must be grounded.
It will trip on a ground fault regardless of whether it's grounded or not, the ground wire is not required for it to function. I concur that it must legally be grounded, but it will still trip and save your life if there's a ground fault.

This part is quoted from my home inspection report, not from the guy I saw today. I understand though, that it will still trip.. Kinda all semantics since the whole house isnt grounded. Needless to say, that news didnt particuarly brighten my day too much.

Good luck on getting some better bids! How much of this are you up to try to fix yourself? If you get the power company to come and pull the meter base, it will remove power to your house and let you safely work on the system. (The electrician would have to do this, too.)

All the stuff involving the grounding, installing new boxes, running new mains, is something I'm not comfortable with. Now running the new circuits, fishing wire, hooking up outlets/switches; thats definetly in the realm of DIY for me. I imagine I could run the circuits, label them clearly and then just have a pro come and hook them up to the box for me. It would certainly save me a wad of cash doing it that way.

Thanks again for the info. I really do appreciate it. I do plan on getting some other opinions/bids. It'll be next week before I have time to do that though. In the meantime I'm gonna hit up the bank tommorow to see what they'll do for me. Anyways, I'll try and get some pics up tomorrow.

edit: screw sleep. heres some of the inside pics:

http://www.imagebam.com/image/80a1f230824047
This is a shot of the un-sheathed neutral

http://www.imagebam.com/image/72ee8d30824048
A shot of the main breaker with the dryer wires running to it.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/d7d18730824051
The sub-box for the dryer

http://www.imagebam.com/image/43349230824053
The neutral bus bar

http://www.imagebam.com/image/aa91c030824054
The lazy plastic conduit running the 8ga wire.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/929c0430876007
A full shot of the service where it hits the house

http://www.imagebam.com/image/c79c3b30876009
The exposed cable

http://www.imagebam.com/image/6497bd30876010
The "grounding" system

http://www.imagebam.com/image/6d5aee30876011
Showing where the service hits the house

http://www.imagebam.com/image/7898e130876014
The SE cable running through the crawlspace.

mrglynis fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Mar 26, 2009

# ¿ Mar 26, 2009 04:39

mrglynis: Mar 10, 2009

grover posted:

http://www.imagebam.com/image/72ee8d30824048
A shot of the main breaker with the dryer wires running to it.
This is wrong! There's a way to do a bus tap, but this is NOT that way! What SHOULD have been done is a new subpanel should have been installed where the dryer box is, a couple existing breakers moved from your panel to the new box, and a new breaker installed in your panel to feed the new subpanel. (This subpanel would need separate neutral and ground bars, btw.)

Yea someone just decided to cheap out. All that would be fixed with the new service/box.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/d7d18730824051
The sub-box for the dryer
Looks OK, aside from the way the feeder is tapped. No telling what's inside, though...

http://www.imagebam.com/image/3440cb30892130
Heres a pic of the inside of the box.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/929c0430876007
A full shot of the service where it hits the house
Looks typical. Not ideal, but not terribly dangerous. Code requires conduit where it's liable to be damaged; I'd strongly recommend coming out the bottom of your meter pan with conduit to protect against weed whackers and suck. This is a subjective code, though.

Yea it definetly needs protecting on the bottom. I took out the power to my AC with my hedge trimmer at my last house.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/c79c3b30876009
The exposed cable
Is that just paint flaking off, or is the cable degraded? The latter is most certainly a problem.

Its hard to tell whether or not the cable is sufficiently degraded enough to warrant concern. I would imagine though without even the small layer of paint protecting it, the elements have been, and will continue to take their toll.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/6497bd30876010
The "grounding" system
I really can't see what's going on here. Is there a thick copper cable inside the sheathing, and is is solid and connected solidly to your ground rod? How badly is it corroded? What's that little wire wrapped around it, is that grounding the cable/phone stuff?

I wouldnt call it thick. It looks like a standard size ground wire inside the metal sheathing. It appears to be solidly connected to the ground rod. Its hard to tell whether the copper is corroded or not. I did note some corrosion on the part of the rod thats above ground. Heres a pic:
http://www.imagebam.com/image/592e5430893249

The little wire was just a dead wire. Not attached to anything. It was probably for the phone or something at some point. At the top of the other pic where the green tag is, the cable box has a ground tying into it.

If you do have your electrical system upgraded, one thing you can do that might save some labor is to instead of putting a new panel outside your house, put a service disconnect there- basically just a main breaker in a box. Then it doesn't matter where your actual electrical panel is located, the 5' distance is N/A, etc. (This will make replacing your panel a lot cheaper if you don't have to splice or replace as much of the inside cabling.) When you have it done, I'd recommend having a generator manual transfer switch (MTS) installed, too; it'll be cheap compared to everything else, and they sure make life a lot more pleasant! (The MTS lets you swap your house from utility power to generator power during a big outage. They're legally required to prevent accidentally backfeeding the high-voltage lines through the utility company's transformers and giving line workers repairing the power lines a 7000V surprise.)

If you're feeling up to it, you can even have the electrician stop at the new service disconnect, and you can safely wire the rest up yourself. Just make sure to read up like chryst did, pull all the necessary permits, etc.

That was something that was discussed. Having a box outside that would serve as a cut off and allow for easier access to power out in the yard and such. I'm not sure I understand what you mean here:

"This will make replacing your panel a lot cheaper if you don't have to splice or replace as much of the inside cabling."

Why would you have less splicing and replacing to do? I'm might be looking at it from the wrong perspective. As it stands, most if not virtually all of the wiring in the house is 2-wire. So in order to bring everything up to snuff, it all needs to be replaced with 3 wire, so that everything; switches, outlets, everthing will be nice and grounded.

As far as the MTS goes. This is the first I've heard of one, apart from just the basic assumption that things like that exist. Would it be useful, even if I dont have a generator, nor plans to purchase one?

Thanks again. Youre really giving me alot of great feedback. I do appreciate it. I would love to do the bulk of the work myself but alas I have more desire than time. I work 2 jobs, and dont have an extensive amount of free time as it is. But I do hope to do some of the work at least. Running circuits and such.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2009 23:20

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Hobbies, Crafts, & Houses > Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!