Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Hobbies, Crafts, & Houses > Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

Jabronie: Jun 4, 2011; In an investigation, details matter.

Ideally you don't want any continuous load like a fridge, lights, or ev charger on a gfci.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2024 01:39

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# ¿ May 12, 2024 12:22

Jabronie: Jun 4, 2011; In an investigation, details matter.

captkirk posted:

I don't want to DIY the stuff. I want to be able to understand things well enough to be able to communicate better.

In the US we follow the NEC, National Electrical Code. In Chicago we follow the CEC, Chicago Electrical Code, which is additions and subtractions to the NEC. Check with your towns ordinance that will list addendums to whichever year's edition of the NEC they follow.

There are free versions of the NEC online you can use to help communicate since this is what electricians should be following and are a minimum standard.

# ¿ Apr 5, 2024 04:20

Jabronie: Jun 4, 2011; In an investigation, details matter.

Fruits of the sea posted:

No multimeter unfortunately.

Just looked up switch loops. If I understand correctly, that consists of running a hot wire to the light fixture and then back to the light switch? And they can get more elaborate than that if more light fixtures or switches are in play? That could explain a lot.

The power for lighting should be coming from your breaker or fuse directly to the switch device. The switch leg comes from the switch device to the lights in that room.

ideally, you would have a meter or non contact voltage tester to identify which wires are coming from your panel since doubling the voltage can damage your equipment.

devices like a circuit tracer can you see the path the wires are taking as well.

# ¿ Apr 12, 2024 19:01

Jabronie: Jun 4, 2011; In an investigation, details matter.

Fruits of the sea posted:

Right, so took me a while to figure out the multimeter and find time to play with what I now know is called the "ceiling rose". Thanks to this video, I was able to establish which pair is in continuity when the light switch is flipped on. But just bundling those together still leaves all the sockets in the room and adjoining room without power.

What's the next step? Should I flip the breaker on and figure out which wires are supplying power?

You found the two wires that go down to the switch. the power and the switch leg. In the ceiling those two should not be tied together. One of those is tied to the power from the panel's breaker and the switch leg connects to your light.

I'm seeing sheathing around every set of two wires in your photos so we can presume there's no ground wires. Four sets in total, one set go to the switch, one from the panel, one to a receptacle in the next room. You have to find out what that fourth set goes to.

Knowing which wires are from the panel's breaker will be useful to prevent damage to equipment. You mentioned there's only one breaker off right now:
If all the wires are disconnected you can check in voltage mode with your multimeter between every combination of wires with the breaker off.
If there is a wire that has a difference of about 230v with the breaker off then there's a second breaker in the on position. Meaning, there could be damage to equipment and further troubleshooting is needed.
If there is a difference of 0v then there is only one breaker powering the lights and receptacles which is probably what's happened here.

I'm seeing this picture again and seeing the two possible neutrals disconnected here.

Fruits of the sea posted:

If there really is just one breaker in this situation then go back to this situation and connect the two common neutrals together to complete the circuit

# ¿ Apr 23, 2024 01:27

Jabronie: Jun 4, 2011; In an investigation, details matter.

Rocko Bonaparte posted:

We recently got a house to stash my mom that was built in 1961 . . . right before ground was required. So it has a fuse box and no ground. It's using nylon-braided wiring. Some of the fuses are 30A. I'm not on-site there right now so I wasn't able to verify the circuits that were fused with 30A, but I have bad feeling they're 20A circuits that got the 30A fuse treatment. I think the rule of thumb there is to doubt the integrity of any wiring "upgraded" like that.

We went in with a notion of completely rewiring in the first place and thought we adjusted ourselves accordingly, but all the quotes are coming up wild. Well, it's more like I don't think we understood post-Covid pricing for anything and they're coming in normal. So we're torn on doing it anyways. We're suspecting it'll come back in the resale since the house was sitting for a long time on the market (presumably because of this and something that the inspector missed that's going to turn into a war).

A major problem with rewiring is that the roof angle is really acute, so it's very much a crawl-on-your-belly affair. Most of the rest is accessible from underneath in the basement, but some of it is in a crawl space instead.

We're considering some alternatives (in order of severity):
1. Apparently there are retrofits for fuses to convert them to breakers? We just do that and call it a day.
2. We install a new panel and put in GFCI breakers. Presumably, we later can work off of this to add or modify circuits.
3. Some or all of the circuits get replaced with Romex with a ground up to their receptacles. Anything in the ceiling runs without a ground. I think this would be DIY since I'm not sure an electrician could/would do it. That's probably a hint to its suitability.
4. Anything beyond that is going into a full rewire.

We were also getting quotes assuming drywall was mostly retained, and we're now reviewing what would happen if we got into different levels of drywall busting.

Is there anything else we should be considering?

A panel swap would be the safest option. You can buy a circuit breaker tracer and map the layout of your home to identify how many receptacles and/or lights are on each breaker. Our NEC recommends no more than 8 receptacles per breaker on 15amp breaker and 10 receptacles on 20 amp breaker. Your breaker size will be limited to the existing wire guage. 14g will be for a 15A breaker and 12g will be for 20A breaker.

AFCI breakers can be supplied to the bedroom receptacles. My local teaches us to have no more than 5 devices on a GFCI load side if you want to save money on new devices. Those downstream devices are to be labelled "GFCI Protected� and �No Equipment Ground." Any GFCI device installed with no ground will simply be marked with �No Equipment Ground." Some continuous loads like refrigerators are not recommend to be protected by GFCI since there can be nuisance tripping.

Increasing the fuse size is the previous owner overloading the circuit and finding a bad solution. Most common way that happens is an electric heater. The most likely causes of electrical fires are arcing at device terminations. If you inspect for any existing burn marks or melting plastic it should be replaced.

# ¿ Apr 23, 2024 02:02

Jabronie: Jun 4, 2011; In an investigation, details matter.

Rocko Bonaparte posted:

Hey, thanks for the response, but I got fixated on something here for unrelated reasons:

Is there some similar limit to AFCI breakers? In our previous house, we had it completely rewired and they had installed AFCI breakers as part of the updated code. Those original AFCI breakers were very grouchy. I think the breakers themselves were just bad because I had better luck with replacements later, but I wonder if there were some constraints that weren't followed like that GFCI limit and it encouraged nuisance tripping.

...I mean, we could also just assume the completely rewired circuits all had problems in them or something too...

Adding devices introduces more opportunities for arcing and triggering the afci but no, there is no nec limit to those breakers other than the rated amperage. 15a - 8, 20a - 10.

Also, if you�re upgrading your panel you may as well go to 200a service for any future upgrades.

# ¿ Apr 23, 2024 11:41

Jabronie: Jun 4, 2011; In an investigation, details matter.

Rocko Bonaparte posted:

I'd probably end up replacing all the outlets and switches anyways. What I had heard for 30A fuses is that it implies degradation of the circuits in general and the wiring involved should be set up for replacement. That was from one person though and it hasn't be substantiated by anybody else.

Also, yeah 200A service would be the way to go with a panel swap.

It�s true, insulation will melt or become more brittle if there�s more current flowing than the wire is rated for. That decision can be left to the electrician doing the panel upgrade since we don�t know how long the wires were being overloaded. Obviously he isn�t going to be landing these old cables if they�re falling apart as he�s working with them and would have to recommend a rewire.

Also, id recommend commercial grade receptacles for any outlet that�s being plugged into a lot such as spots for vacuums or kitchen appliances. They�ll cost a little more but the springs will last longer.

# ¿ Apr 24, 2024 17:05

Jabronie: Jun 4, 2011; In an investigation, details matter.

Rocko Bonaparte posted:

Are you talking about the tamper resistant springs in particular?

I think I've personally been using them for some time because they're also just easier to work with.

Tamper resistant or receptacles with TR stamped on them are just plastic shutters at the plug so a child doesn't stick a knife into a live conductor slot.
Commercial grade receptacles have a better grip over time so plugs won't fall out.

# ¿ Apr 24, 2024 19:43

Jabronie: Jun 4, 2011; In an investigation, details matter.

It could be aluminum. Al will be almost double the resistance.

# ¿ Apr 30, 2024 14:25

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# ¿ May 12, 2024 12:22

Jabronie: Jun 4, 2011; In an investigation, details matter.

Hed posted:

This could go into a few different threads but is there 24 or 48V landscape lighting? Everything I've seen is either 12V or line, which, fine but I have a really large yard.
I guess point sources have to standardize on something and it's not like in strip lighting where it's relatively easy to make strands compatible with higher voltages.

The transformer you buy for landscape lighting should have guidelines like this:

# ¿ May 2, 2024 21:47

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Hobbies, Crafts, & Houses > Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!