Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Hobbies, Crafts, & Houses > Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

«‹›12 »

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

asdf32 posted:

Heh, I actually just added one of those to my attic last weekend, it already had 2 and I wanted a 3rd. Are they legal in the attic? What kind of $5-$10 fixture are you talking about?

I thought about fluorescent too but thought they were perhaps not ideal in the cold/hot, and being rarely used in the attic it's a good place to use leftover incandescents.

It's code that light bulbs need to be protected from physical damage; the risk is that the bulb glass could be broken, thus exposing live conductors within the bulb. There are a few niche places you could use a fixture like that with an exposed bulb, but not in your garage, attic, basement, closet, laundry room, or just about anywhere else people try to put them.

National Electric Code posted:

110.27.(B) Prevent Physical Damage. In locations where electrical equipment is likely to be exposed to physical damage, enclosures or guards shall be arranged and of such strength as to prevent such damage.

I'm not going to tell you those $2 ceramic fixtures aren't installed all over the damned place, but they shouldn't be. Even the cheapest $5 enclosued fixtures Lowes sells meets NEC 110.27 requirement for protection against damage. May be glass, but no fixture is indestructible, and glass in an enclosure is much stronger and thicker glass than on a light bulb and serves to deflect most damage away from it.

Nothing wrong with using incandescents in an attic or rarely used basement. Unless you live in CA where it's illegal, but even then it's still kinda stupid to spend an extra $2 on a bulb to save maybe 2 cents in electricity. You *may* have issues with flourescent lights taking a while to turn on in your garage on cold mornings, but I've never really had problems in my garage. My unheated shed- yes, takes a long time to heat up, but not the garage. YMMV. FYI, enclosed CFLs (like floodlights and recessed lights) take a lot longer to warm up than open CFL fixtures, so definitely don't use them in cold areas.

grover fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Jan 27, 2013

# ¿ Jan 27, 2013 02:29

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 19, 2024 23:36

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Bad Munki posted:

My house was built in 2007 and it had three of those fixtures in the garage; it's not a junker house or anything, quite the opposite. I suspect that "likely to be exposed to physical damage" is highly subjective.

Depends on the inspector, yep; some allow it, some will red-tag you for it. NEC is explicit about not using them in closets and attics, but less so in garages, basements, etc.

# ¿ Jan 27, 2013 02:39

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

babyeatingpsychopath posted:

Anything over 6'6" is not readily accessible, therefore protected from physical damage. Unfinished and/or uninhabitable spaces that do not get regular use = no physical damage.

I love our inspectors.

As far as GFCIs in 1g boxes: it's rough. Get slimline, or be meticulous about fitting your wire in. The minimum you're allowed by code is 6" of wire where the wire enters the box. It's not very much if you measure it, and it helps for large devices in small spaces.

Various other places say 8' is subject to damage. Others are even less tolerant and assume you're going to be swinging all sorts of poo poo at the ceiling.

Attics are another funny one. If it's not used for storage, bare bulbs are OK. Throw a box in the attic, though? Now it's subject to damage. Seems to be a common convenient discrepancy- builder claim's it's not used for storage and cheaps out on the fixture to save $3, but what's the first thing the homeowner does? Toss some scrap plywood over the joists and fill 'er up. I wonder how many homes burn down when a cardboard box crushes a bulb and lights off?

# ¿ Jan 27, 2013 04:35

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Bad Munki posted:

I need that but for a 4' fluorescent fixture...preferably something that can be mounted I guess on the sheetrock? I saw one product on the web with a 5" width and 4" depth that I think would work, it seems to be the same thing sold pretty much everywhere, but I can't really tell how it actually mounts.

This is the one I keep finding, I can't tell how those metal clips attach to the surface: http://www.amazon.com/Wire-Guard-Fl...cent+light+cage

You should be able to get a nice light-diffusing cover from whomever made your fluorescent fixture.

Or, for $20, you could just get a new fixture.

# ¿ Jan 27, 2013 16:36

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Pufflekins posted:

gently caress 750 kcmil teck cable. It's a bitch.

Fortunately, not too much of this in the average house :science:

# ¿ Feb 14, 2013 00:36

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Pufflekins posted:

There is, however, a bunch in these dorms we're wiring

Have you ever had to pull 1000kcmil? It's always in the tables, but I've never actually seen anyone crazy enough to use it.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2013 02:50

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Cpt.Wacky posted:

I don't know, that's what Home Depot is selling for 2 bulb 4 foot direct wire flush mount with diffuser. Maybe it's a cost saving measure to save a few cents on wire? I could see series wiring being a problem with 4 bulbs but 2 is easier to test.

I've found that most of the time it's cheaper and easier to just buy a new fixture than to replace the ballast.

# ¿ Feb 15, 2013 00:31

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

kid sinister posted:

That really comes down to amperage. All USB uses 5V DC. According to specs, any USB port that handles data is limited to a max of 0.5A under USB 2.0 and 0.9A under 3.0, at least when data is being sent back and forth. The newest Apple plug-in USB charger is rated for 12W. Apply a little Watt's Law and it puts out 2.4A.

Surprised the hell out of my once when I was (I thought) charging my droid smartphone via USB while using it when a warning popped up and said that the phone was draining the battery faster than it was charging and I needed to be careful.

Only happened once; I forget what I was doing, but it was an aberration. Still, these can be high-drain devices.

# ¿ Feb 27, 2013 03:48

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

IOwnCalculus posted:

In general, what is code like for running conduit / outside outlets? My HOA can be intermittently anal-retentive, but I'm thinking it would be relatively easy to run conduit down to just above ground level, flush up against the outside of the house, and then come back up to a reasonable height and stick the outlet at the front of the driveway where I currently have a broken garage door keypad. Or can I trench it and come up at the driveway? Or am I going to be paying an electrician to crawl around in my attic space and fish cabling over the front bedroom to drop the outlet along the inside wall of the garage, near the garage door?

Yes, you could do it any of these ways. Since it's outside, you'd need to use wet-rated cabling, but you could mount conduit on your wall or you could trench it. Minimum depth depends on how you're trenching it, but the most common methods require 12-24" depth.

You could always run oversized cable, which would give you an easy upgrade path, should you change your mind in the future and want to use a 6.6kW charger.

grover fucked around with this message at 12:42 on Mar 4, 2013

# ¿ Mar 4, 2013 12:38

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

oldskool posted:

Speaking of running oversized cable, is it possible to use 15A outlets with 10ga wire? It's not the outlets I'm having trouble with, it's the lovely mobile home circuitry that has half the kitchen, the office & the spare bedroom's lights & outlets all sharing one 15A breaker & I'd prefer to replace as little as possible to make it so I can microwave without shutting off the office computer & the lights.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Yes, it's OK to use #10 wire with a 15A outlet, though #10 can be a bit stiff so you may have to pigtail it. Also, you can ONLY feed a 15A outlet from a 15 or 20A circuit, not 30A. So if you're thinking of bumping that whole circuit up to 30A to avoid nuissance trips, sorry, that's a code violation because the outlets themselves can't handle the overload and fault current a 30A breaker will allow through and can present a fire hazard. You're probably best off putting your microwave on a new dedicated 15A circuit. Don't forget the GFCI.

IOwnCalculus posted:

It's funny, I never even thought about trenching it until I wrote up that post, and that's probably the most sane way to do it since I think the HOA would probably be annoyed at any not strictly necessary additional conduit on the front of the house, even if it's nearly 100% invisible from the street by running at ground level.

Yeah, HOA would probably be much happier if you trenched it

Here's the table from IRC with the various methods and depths- it's the same table as the NEC. Which method works best for you will depend on how deep you're willing to dig vs cost/difficulty in running the conduit. EMT is relatively easy to work with any might work well for you, but you could use IMC if you're not keen on digging a deep trench. If you're entirely within conduit, you can use individual THWN or XHHW wires (available in your local big box).

grover fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Mar 4, 2013

# ¿ Mar 4, 2013 18:31

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

oldskool posted:

3) Go fixture-by-fixture back towards the box, replacing the 14ga wire with 10ga as I go.
4) Once I reach the breaker box, replace the 15A breaker with a 30A one.

That's unfortunately not legal; duplex receptacles can't be fed from a circuit greater than 20A, even if the cable is large enough. Pulling #12 and increasing it to 20A is OK, but you'd need to replace every piece of #14 with #12 to be safe/code legal.

And yeah, you don't want the microwave, space heater and AC units on the same breaker; they'll each pull damned close to 15A by themselves and will quickly overload it. To do it right, you're going to need to add more circuits. The AC won't ever be on the same time as the space heater (right?) so you can potentially share a circuit there. Still leaves you with 3 dedicated circuits if you want to eliminate overload trips.

Can you use tandem breakers to effectively increase the # of breakers in your panel, are they available for your panel?

# ¿ Mar 4, 2013 21:09

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

oldskool posted:

I've got tandem breakers installed at the moment, but I might be maxed out. I'll have to check the diagram.

Worst-case, I buy a couple UPSes & whenever it gets tripped nobody loses satellite/internet/PC and they have time to find the culprit, scold them, and get to the box to un-trip the breaker.

You could put in a 60A subpanel, too. Move some of those circuits to the new panel.

# ¿ Mar 4, 2013 22:03

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

stik posted:

I'm trying to not involve real electricians because they may tell me I need to replace all of my wiring and that's not an option right now. I do plan on rewiring the entire house this fall but for now it isn't going to happen.

A real electrician would tell you to upgrade the rest of your house to meet modern code, because that's the law right now- you upgrade your panel, you need to bring everything fed from it up to code, too.

Fair warning: if you replace your panel and don't upgrade the house to 100% grounded wiring, 2x20A GFCI circuits in the kitchen, etc., your locality may fail you on inspection and make you do it anyhow. Depends on your locality- I highly recommend you call them and explain the situation and ask what their policy is for this sort of thing. They *might* grant you some leniency as a properly done panel without those upgrades is safer than the old panel without those upgrades, but the last thing you want to happen is a failed inspection and your power gets shut off until you fix it.

Upgrade it without inspection, and your insurance company may not pay out if your house burns down.

grover fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Mar 10, 2013

# ¿ Mar 10, 2013 22:04

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Account_Username posted:

Does every type of electrical work have to be inspected? I replaced a beat-up 15 amp outlet with a new one myself a few weeks ago.

Depends on your area. Most places how allowances for 1:1 replacements of simple things with no modifications, like outlets and light fixtures, but adding a new outlet usually requires a permit.

# ¿ Mar 11, 2013 02:10

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

stik posted:

Well I'm just replacing one box with another so I should be good. San Antonio is extremely lax about this kind of thing compared to other parts of the country too luckily.

Main panel is a little bit different than replacing a broken light switch, though.

# ¿ Mar 11, 2013 02:45

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Account_Username posted:

So is it not normal to have an outside breaker then? There is a panel outside mounted on the same post as the kwh meter to cut off power going into the house where I live. It only has a main breaker + some other breaker in it, all breakers for individual circuits are in the panel inside the house. Every house in the neighborhood is like this, so I don't think ours is an outlier. Would it be because we live in a mobile home (trailer)?

Yes, your case is different because you have a mobile home. In most permanently constructed homes, the main breaker is inside the main panel, and there's nothing between the meter and the main breaker.

# ¿ Mar 11, 2013 23:19

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

IOwnCalculus posted:

The fact that it's outside isn't at all unusual, at least to me. In AZ every house I've lived in has the main panel on the outside with the meter; the only times I've had electrical panels indoors have been apartments.

Having a main panel outside isn't abnormal, but having a main breaker outside feeding a panel inside isn't entirely uncommon, but isn't the norm. It's mostly used because code requires the main service entry breaker to be *right* beside the panel (a few feet away at most), and if you want the panel somewhere else, the easiest way is to put that breaker right beside the meter to give you that flexibility. You also need to do this in most cases if you want to install a traditional transfer switch for a generator.

Shameless plug for my generator thread, btw:
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3515309

# ¿ Mar 11, 2013 23:54

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Nuntius posted:

Not sure if this is the best place to ask this, but it seems roughly right.

My girlfriend recently purchased a flexible shaft drill in Germany which runs on 240v with a maximum load of 800VA and at 50Hz. She wants to use it in Canada which runs at 120v (ish) and 60Hz.

(my understanding is that the Hz difference won't make a huge difference, just make it run a little fast/hot)

We got a Hammond 170FE autotransformer that has a capacity of 1000VA and can convert either 115v-230v or 230v-115v depending on the way you wire it. I wired it to go from 115v to 230v and tested the voltage of the output to confirm. I didn't however test the current (my friend lent me his voltmeter and said that it was not capable of testing that amount of current). When I test the drill, it runs VERY slowly. I tried reversing the circuit incase I was just an idiot, and when I did this it did not run at all.

What horribly obvious thing am I doing wrong? What stupid miscalculation have I made? What basic understanding do I not have? I have almost no knowledge of electrics that I didn't learn from spending a day on Wikipedia.

Does it have a full load current of 800VA, or a locked-rotor current of 800VA? Motors have a ton of in-rush current, several times the normal full load current, and the autotransformer might not be capable of supplying it enough juice to get it to start turning.

grover fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Mar 15, 2013

# ¿ Mar 15, 2013 01:44

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Be careful when attempting to install UF by putting it in the conduit before you install the conduit. Sure, you avoid having to pull it through, but PVC cement will damage UF insulation.

grover fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Mar 21, 2013

# ¿ Mar 21, 2013 01:40

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

particle409 posted:

Can you just throw some strong fishing line in the conduit before installation? Then you just tape/attach one end of the line to your UF, and pull it through.

You can use rope or fish tape, either of which are OK to install before it's glued (and much easier to do). You'll find UF is stiff and has a lot of friction and is a real bitch to pull through multiple bends or any length; THWN or XHHW is much easier. Make sure you secure it VERY well or the splice point will tear off in the conduit and you'll have to pull it back out and fish in new rope.

Like this, but smaller:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMA9ybAtpzo

Other tips:
http://electrical.about.com/b/2011/08/22/how-do-i-pull-wire-through-conduit.htm

grover fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Mar 31, 2013

# ¿ Mar 31, 2013 14:56

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

kid sinister posted:

What are those plugs on the end for?

Those are connectors for 3-phase 208V power. For high powered connections. Kinda funny they'd pretend to plug in a powerstrip. I like this one, too:

# ¿ May 4, 2013 20:04

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Noctone posted:

To add on to both of these posts, cam-locks are primarily used for temporary three-phase power feeds. Probably the most common application I see is to connect a load bank to a generator. We also use them quite regularly at work to feed 480 or 208 to our breaker test sets.

I see them mostly on load banks. For everything else, we usually just use lugs. The color scheme looked 208V, but the connectors don't care what you plug them into.

# ¿ May 6, 2013 00:51

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Those 2-prong adapters are unsafe and illegal to use in this way. There are only two safe and legal ways to plug 3-prong grounded appliances & equipment into 2-prong outlets:

1) Upgrade it to an actual grounded 3-prong outlet by pulling in a new ground wire. If you're REALLY lucky, the ground is already in the box, and all you have to do is hook it up. I've yet to see it, though.

2) You can install a GFCI receptacle on the circuit, which will allow you to legally install 3-prong receptacles on all downstream outlets that are protected by it. It still won't be grounded, but the GFCI provides shock protection and allows for this in the electrical code. This must be labeled "UNGROUNDED" and "GFCI PROTECTED"

# ¿ May 9, 2013 01:08

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

kid sinister posted:

My own house was! Well, half of it. Half the house the original electrician twisted the grounds together outside the boxes and attached them to a box gang screw, the other half he clipped the ground off where he removed the outer insulation. That's when I got double lucky and the ground wire was bent zigzagged inside the outer sheath so I was able to tug out an inch to twist pigtails onto.

And what about GFCI extension cords? Would they work for his instance, beyond getting expensive per outlet really quick?

A GFCI cord should be OK, I think; especially the ones that only have a 2-prong plug and don't require an adapter. GFCI receptacles are pretty cheap, though, and one could protect probably half the house, which could then be upgraded to normal 3-prong receptacles.

# ¿ May 9, 2013 10:47

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

SneakyBeef posted:

Nope, I believe the max is 8 receptacles if you want to maintain the UL listing for their purpose. I'm sure it will tell you just how many on the instruction sheet that comes in the box though.

At an average 2 receptacles per room, back in those days? Don't think they ever anticipated the electric life we live today. I don't recall there being a limit on receptacles in a residence. 13/ckt commercially, IIRC.

Missed the apartment bit; yeah, you can't do poo poo like this no matter how much it makes sense if you're renting, sorry. GFCI power strip'll have to do.

# ¿ May 10, 2013 01:51

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Cat Hatter posted:

I tried pulling it out with pliers but it's broken off flush with the socket it pushes into.

Seconding kastein. The old-school trick for this is to cut a potato in half and jam it into what's left of the socket. Always worked pretty good on incandescents.

# ¿ May 20, 2013 15:03

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Laminator posted:

Okay, sounds good. I'll get a new gfci and see if I can grab a new gasket. Maybe a bead of caulk around the outside of the case would help?

Yeah, bead of caulk with work great; that's how the pros usually do it. GFCI outlets are a common failure, but are an easy DIY replacement. Make sure to secure power to the breaker before you work on it. Should be pretty straightforward to install; the markings on the back of most GFCIs are pretty clear and hard to gently caress up.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2013 17:32

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Cat Hatter posted:

I'm too lazy to try another brand yet because then I'd have to go to a different store, but the last time I picked one up I got a regular bulb because they're built a bit different from the double-life bulbs that I've been using. I was actually wondering if anyone knows why the normal bulbs have a sort of doughnut-hole in the middle of them? I've never seen anything like it in a light bulb before.

Either way, I've had to replace 4 of the 5 bulbs so far, its even money if the last one will burn out or explode, but I'll probably know by the end of the month.

Just wipe it clean before you turn it on for the first time.

# ¿ Jun 10, 2013 10:47

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

ShadowStalker posted:

I'd add the outlet. A retrofit box and outlet will cost less than $5 and won't take too much time to do.

Seconding this; definitely the better and more code-compliant approach, and not at all that hard to do. With added caution, though: fan hoods draw next to no power and are generally fed from a lighting circuit. OTR microwaves draw a lot of power and because they're a "built in" appliance over 12A, they're supposed to have a dedicated 20A circuit. You might want to look and see what else is on that circuit and make sure you're not overloading it; worst-case, you might need to tap off one of the 20A kitchen appliance circuits instead, or even add a brand new circuit.

# ¿ Jun 13, 2013 10:48

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

FCKGW posted:

My coworker installed a new Nissan Leaf charger, not sure if he has the wiring done right or not.

That just looks plain sloppy, and has a couple code violations.

1. Needs to be stapled within 12" of the box
2. Needs to have a protective grommet with strain relief where it enters the box (maybe there is one? can't tell)
3. The insulation should be stripped and cut trim within 1/4" or so if where it enters the box, not hanging out like that.
4. Can't tell what he did inside the receptacle box, but it doesn't look like the box is hung properly
5. The receptacle box needs a strain relief grommet
6. The wire is supposed to be stapled within 12" of this, too.

Basically, you need another 50 cents worth of fittings, a couple staples, and some decent worksmanship to make this code-legal. The white romex coming out of that box looks awful, too.

# ¿ Jun 25, 2013 01:33

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Depends on what the actual brand is. If it's a Cooper combo switch it should have a break-off tab and is even easier; black on black, white to silver and red to copper, and no jumpers necessary. If it doesn't have a tab, yeah, you need to pigtail it. Would make more sense if they all had tabs; pretty just exactly what they're made for.

grover fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Jul 15, 2013

# ¿ Jul 15, 2013 21:11

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Astonishing Wang posted:

I already broke the tab off, I was just a little thrown because I need one more wire than I have. I can just take off the wire nut and use the two black lines as they are, correct?

Yep.

# ¿ Jul 15, 2013 23:10

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

dietcokefiend posted:

I need to get a UPS working in another room, only problem is the room doesn't have the proper outlet. Is there anything wrong with putting a L5-30R outlet on a 20A circuit? Breaker is still a 20A breaker and the UPS wouldnt be drawing more than 20A. Is it breaking code by doing this?

I had this exact problem a few years ago; we solved it by making up pigtail jumper cables for the UPS units. Don't change the wall receptacle; that's not permitted by code. The pigtail jumper cable probably violates the UL listing, but is at least a grey area and load on the UPS can be easily managed.

# ¿ Jul 20, 2013 13:26

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

FogHelmut posted:

I'm installing a light in my ceiling, and above my ceiling there is like a truss similar to this:

The drywall isn't directly screwed into that. There are metal strips running perpendicular to the truss which the drywall is attached.

The loving truss and metal strip cross at dead center in my ceiling. So I have to move the hole for the light a whole length, 4" or so, diagonally. This is probably inconsequential, but I'm anal about symmetry. Ugh.

Is the wire for the light the only wire in the box? Does the style of light allow room inside the light fixture for wiring? If so, you may be able to get away with a pancake box no deeper than your drywall, and still put it right where you want to. Shim it up and secure it appropriate to the size/weight fixture you're planning to use.

grover fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Jul 20, 2013

# ¿ Jul 20, 2013 19:40

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

UF is a lot like romex, only it's solid rubber jacket instead of a thin rubber sheath with paper filler like NM-B. Data on NM-B cable is printed on the jacked, but UF is stamped- if it's UF, you should be able to see it through the paint. If you can't tell, open the GFCI receptacle and look at the termination.

Motronic posted:

Previous Owner.

And I agree that it's a total no-go with Romex/NM as the NEC says absolutely not in a "wet or damp location" with "damp" being defined elsewhere in the code using an example of under a deck.

Some people would let it through with UF...it's a gray area. I wouldn't have it at my own house. NMLT conduit is too cheap and easy to install to be worrying about cable abrasion.

It's not a gray area, this is pretty much exactly why UF exists. You use it in places where it's going to get wet, but is not subject to damage, like a deck or open porch. It's rated for direct burial as well, though you've got to dig it awfully deep.

# ¿ Jul 21, 2013 11:00

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Motronic posted:

The gray area isn't about the moisture resistance, it's about lack of abrasion resistance in a cable who's abrasion resistance is supposed to be supplemented by 12" of soil or by being behind drywall or in a conduit.

That's why it's a gray area. It depends on exactly where it is and how likely it would be to come in contact with something that will rub up against it. I can't make that call without seeing it.

FYI I'm not just making assumptions here. I was code enforcement - fire marshal to be precise - for the better part of the last decade so this is 100% in my wheelhouse but of course codes aren't the same everywhere nor are interpretations of what may be the exact same code. I'm just calling it the way _I_ would have responded to someone in my jurisdiction asking the same question.

What abrasion? NEC doesn't make mention of that; may be a local thing, as I've never heard anyone place those sort of restrictions on UF. In fact, 2011 NEC 340.10(3) & 340.10(4) explicitly say UF should be treated as waterproof NM. It's just not supposed to be subject to physical damage or exposed to direct sunlight. Under a deck is fine.

grover fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Jul 21, 2013

# ¿ Jul 21, 2013 23:49

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

SuicidalSmurf posted:

Going crazy trying to replace a breaker with a GFCI breaker. I am confident I have found the neutral/hot pair that go to the circuit I want to protect, and I properly connected the neutral off the breaker to the neutral bus. When I try and power on the circuit it instantly trips. Is it possible I have the wrong neutral? When I was troubleshooting, I attempted disconnecting various neutrals one at a time from the panel in an attempt to verify I was working with the correct neutral, and I had the lights stay on on that circuit regardless of the neutrals being disconnected. Is this normal?

Disconnect the neutral from the breaker, and test for continuity with ground. You should have NO continuity if the neutral is properly wired downstream. If there is continuity, it means some of the neutral current is returning via the ground, and creating a current imbalance the GFCI breaker thinks is someone is getting electrocuted.

If this is the case, you need to start opening all the downstream boxes to figure out where the neutral-ground fault is. Considering your lights stay on with this neutral wire lifed, I suspect this neutral is wired up to another neutral circuit somewhere- I'd start looking in light switches, especially any gang boxes with more than one light switch in them.

grover fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Jul 29, 2013

# ¿ Jul 29, 2013 22:22

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

SuicidalSmurf posted:

Makes sense. I know in the bathroom the neutral in the switch is tied to two other neutrals I believe. So if one of the neutrals it is tied into is on another circuit/breaker that would cause the fault?

Yep. The GFCI breaker measures current going out and current going back, and if the two currents are not within 5ma of each other, it trips. If half the neutral current is coming back via another neutral, it's going to trip.

# ¿ Jul 29, 2013 22:57

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Couple bits of code:

* You need to put a service-rater breaker between the meter and the ATS.
* The neutral must be bonded once, and only once in the system. If it's a 2-pole ATS, you'll need to float the neutral-ground bond in the generator and bond it ONLY at the ATS or main panel. (3-pole will switch the neutral.)
* If you have an ATS, your generator is required to be sized for 100% of your loads. In other words, really big. If you have a reasonably sized generator, you can only have an MTS.
* You need working space for the ATS and panel. It must be 36" deep and 30" wide. It doesn't matter if the 30" is centered on the panel or begins at the edge of it, so long as you have a 30" wide working space to get into it.

grover fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Aug 10, 2013

# ¿ Aug 10, 2013 03:52

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 19, 2024 23:36

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

He's in europe, so their conduit sizes and names are different. I'd imagine 30, 40 and 50mm flexible conduit are available for this type of use.

babyeatingpsychopath posted:

To further complicate things, if your ATS doesn't switch the neutral (most residential don't), then the neutral-ground bond is inside your main panel, only. You're forever and ever completely forbidden from ever allowing your generator to run when there's ever any possibility at all in any possible way of energizing the utility, no matter how remotely. Usually, this means some kind of locking cam inside your ATS that only your utility company is allowed to have keys for. If power drops, it's up to them to unlock your ATS for you to get back on the grid; until then, you're pouring gas in your generator to keep your steaks chilled.

What kind of weird paranoid utility does poo poo like that for open transition ATSs? Residential ATS and MTS are designed for break-before-make connections; it's impossible for a transfer switch of this style design to inadvertently place the genset in-line with utility. No need for padlocks or locking cams or anything like that.

In this case, he'd have to have a service disconnect breaker right after the meter, which is where the neutral-ground bond should be. The only difference between a switched neutral and hardwired neutral is whether the generator has its own N-G bond. Code permits either method.

My recommendation is to hook up the generator to a 2-pole breaker on the main panel with a sliding sheet-metal interlock to prevent both the generator and main breaker from being simultaneously closed; simple, as effective as an MTS, code-legal, and dirt cheap.

grover fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Aug 10, 2013

# ¿ Aug 10, 2013 18:00

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Hobbies, Crafts, & Houses > Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

«‹›12 »