Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

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grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Why are you using 50Hz in Australia instead of the much better 60Hz?

1) Blame George Westinghouse. He picked 100V as the standard. It crept up a bit due to voltage drop until 120V became the new standard. It's stuck because it's so much safer for consumers than 240V, letalone 480V delta which would be awesome from an engineering standpoint, but electrocutions would skyrocket.

3) Our cables are similar. There are tables that compare the two; your cables would not be legal in the US because the guage is too small for the current rating. 24A T&E cable is about the same physical size as our 15A #14-2, IIRC. And it's strictly for fire safety; US electrical code is far more conservative than codes used in other countries.

4) The neutral wire is grounded at the utility pole/transformer, and grounded again at the panel to the house. In a structure, the neutral is grounded at one point, and one point only, regardless of how many places it's bonded (water pipe and ground rod were common until everyone started using plastic pipe).

5) GFCIs are required anywhere near water (outside, garages, kitchens), and reduce fault current to 5ma. In the newest code change, AFCI (arc-fault) are required just about everywhere.

# ¿ Apr 27, 2009 10:40

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# ¿ May 8, 2024 10:08

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Lucid Smog posted:

I have heard many times that having a higher voltage will result in more electrocutions. I don't get it. Yes, an arc will occur over a larger distance... but most people are not ever near electrical arcs. It seems just as dangerous to me. There seems to be some endless debate about whether it's "better" to have more voltage/lower current or vice-versa, but it sure seems like a moot point.

Twice the voltage = twice the current. Ohms law. Twice the current means a higher incidence of fatal current going through the heart. What was a harmless 5ma at 120V is now involuntary muscle contraction at 10ma. If you were sweating a little, maybe that non-fatal current is now fatal current. There's a big difference between getting shocked by 50V, 120V, 240V and 480V. They can all kill you, but the higher voltages are much more likely to do so. The sheer # of people in this thread getting complacent about 120V shocks (that CAN, btw, KILL YOU!) are proof of that.

Electric Current (1 second contact)/ Voltage required to produce the current with assumed body resistance @ 1000-100,000Ohms:

1 mA: Threshold of feeling, tingling sensation. 1-100V
5 mA: Accepted as maximum harmless current 5-500 V
10-20 mA: Beginning of sustained muscular contraction ("Can't let go" current.) 10-1000 V
100-300 mA Ventricular fibrillation, fatal if continued. Respiratory function continues. 100-10,000 V
6 A Sustained ventricular contraction followed by normal heart rhythm. (defibrillation). Temporary respiratory paralysis and possibly burns. 6000-600,000 V

Lucid Smog posted:

I've heard from some British electricians who have seen U.S. electrical work that they are amazed at how "lax" American rules are. I didn't ask specifics but they were sure under the impression that most U.S. homes would fail a U.K. miserably. All hearsay though!

They're probably looking at something that's just as illegal in the US and just hasn't been written up yet. I do a lot of work internationally where I have to abide by both US and local electrical codes, and US electrical codes are invariably more stringent than anywhere else in the world. For ampacities and grounding and everything else, US codes are so much more conservative.

And no, a US job wouldn't pass in UK because the voltage, frequency and wire color would be all wrong, and it would all carry the wrong listing label

grover fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Apr 27, 2009

# ¿ Apr 27, 2009 22:51

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Lucid Smog posted:

Ohm's Law is V = I * R. If you increase the voltage by a factor two, the equivalent current is decreased by a factor of two for the same load.

No, that's completely N/A. Think about it. R will change if you've got sweaty hands, but it isn't going to change depending on which wire you grab. Double V, and you double I, too. The power through your body actually quadruples when you double the voltage.

grover fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Apr 28, 2009

# ¿ Apr 28, 2009 03:11

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Fire Storm posted:

Hoping to get this in before I lose power:

I have 2 battery backups on 2 separate circuits and they keep cycling. One is a new battery backup, one is an older one, but they are both cycling at the same time. I tried plugging them into other circuits and they keep cycling like this. Not seeing any flickering anywhere else in the house, voltmeter doesn't catch any changes other than the power going from 118.7v to 119.5v and it's just as stable at the meter. Seems to cycle more when it's windy, but this has JUST started within the past 36 hours. No tree branches are touching my wires, transformer on the pole looks clear, run from the pole to the house doesn't appear to be swaying at all.

Any suggestions?

EDIT: Power is relatively stable for a few minutes, and the control panel software for my UPS isn't showing any power outage, under voltage or over voltage, but it is cycling.

This is the UPS protecting your equipment from surges, dips and transients you can't see with your voltmeter. The source of the problems may be miles away from your house, and relatively small. Do you ever notice the intensity of your lights changing momentarily when this occurs?

If you get a higher-end UPS, and it will filter better, and will be less sensitive. For instance, during thunderstorms, my APC Back Ups 350 is constantly cycling on and off no apparent reason (lights are on) and quickly drains its battery for, while my APC Smart UPS rides through it- it logs the disruption, but doesn't hit the battery so hard or so long.

grover fucked around with this message at 14:49 on May 2, 2009

# ¿ May 2, 2009 14:34

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Fiesta Nacho Plate posted:

Dear Goons,

Please help me not burn my (rented) house down and/or kill myself.

The place I'm living was built in 195X and has the original space-age avocado green oven and separate built in electric range next to it in the counter (super awesome push button heat controls too). Long story short, one of the little 6 inch coils is broken/burned through and I'd like to replace it.

Thing is, the obsolete ones in the stove have two wires going into one end of the coil and one coming out the other side (or reversed, not sure which way the current is going).

This certainly won't work with the 2 plug versions at the local home depot, so I need to find a replacement that will. I see 3 wire elements online but some are 220v, and some are 240v. Can anyone tell me which I need and if it makes a difference? Here's a closeup of the the wires if it matters.

Two ends are joined together on the black wire, and the other ends are attached to red, and what looks like white with a lot of red rubbed off on it.

All of this is crap is then arranged inside a little ceramic sandwich like so.

Some quick searching leads me to eBay and a few online stores. Here's what I'm thinking about installing. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390046993693 Any thoughts?

220V or 240V won't make a difference. I *think* what you have is a dual stage element (not sure the proper term), but I can't tell. This lets your oven turn on one element or the other independently. Often, a large (9-12") element will have a smaller 6" internally so you can use it for a smaller pot. You might have to special order it.

The ebay one you linked to will probably work just fine, if it fits. The element is resistive, so you can connect one end of each coil to the common black wire. Make sure you mark which red wire is which so you can stay consistent there, too.

grover fucked around with this message at 14:46 on May 2, 2009

# ¿ May 2, 2009 14:37

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

skoobert posted:

Anyone have any ideas whether doing this would be code or not?

It's not legal in the US, sorry.

# ¿ May 12, 2009 10:50

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Per NEC, the conductors, grounded conductor and grounding conductor all have to be run in the same raceway. For NM, I've seen AHJs allow a bare wire to be run outside of, but parallel to, the existing cable. Usually, though, it means "in" the cable, since NM is its own raceway, which means replacing the cable.

Keeping all the wires in parallel reduces the risk of the ground wire getting broken or disconnected and nobody realizing it.

# ¿ May 13, 2009 00:23

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Good catch, I'd forgotten about that exception! (300.3, btw, not 303.3) Yes, I do believe you're good to go

# ¿ May 15, 2009 00:20

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

teethgrinder posted:

In my reading now I'm hearing all about "grounding" which I have absolutely zero knowledge of. There are tonnes of articles online about grounding antennas on rooftops and the like, but I can't find anything about mounting one on a balcony.

Is it even possible to ground something like that from a condo balcony? Do I need to, or is it only important when the antenna is the highest point around during a storm...?

Grounding is extremely important for antennas, as they tend to act as lightning rods, and proper grounding will dissipate the static charges that build up, and reduce the change of being struck by lightning. What you're literally doing is running a wire from this antenna into typically an 8' (or longer) rod stuck in the ground - this "grounds" your system, and dissipate any electrical energy right into the earth. The ground wire of your electrical system is always grounded, too. The risk is lessened if there are higher actual lightning rods around, but not eliminated. Does your building have lightning protection on the roof?

If your antenna is just a piece of wire dangling from the balcony, there's no grounding possible, you can't ground a monopole antenna. You can ground other types of antennas, though. If you're using a commercial high-gain antenna with a metal body, you need to ground the metal body to a ground point. You should use a grounding block to ground the shield of the coax, too. Often, the easiest one is the ground prong in your electrical system, but to do it right, you'd run a grounding conductor directly to the structural steel of the building. If you have a metal balcony railing, that metal balcony railing should already be grounded- if you can verify that it's grounded, it'll make this was easier.

grover fucked around with this message at 14:11 on May 16, 2009

# ¿ May 16, 2009 13:49

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

NEC says extension cords are illegal, so technically they are... but it's not exactly ever enforced. You'll find many businesses enforcing the rule, and many house fires caused by extension cords that are worn through, but nobody's going to arrest you for running an extension cord up your wall. FYI, power strips are considered extension cords are are illegal, too, so I hope nobody reading this has one on their computer!

If you want a technicality that's 100% IAW NEC and legal, there are many ceiling-mounted lamps designed with a long cord and plug. My grandparents had one in their kitchen. Interestingly, though power strips are illegal, surge suppressors are considered to be equipment and are perfectly legal. One of those stupid little loopholes. So, get a surge suppressor with a 12' cord and mount it on your ceiling

grover fucked around with this message at 13:51 on May 25, 2009

# ¿ May 25, 2009 13:46

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

To clarify, yes you can tap off the pigtails in the receptacle box. You leave leave the receptacle there, there's no limit to the # of receptacles on an outlet string in a residence. The only consideration is that there has to be enough room in the box to make the connections. For this pigtail, I doubt you'll have any issues, but you could remove the receptacle if you wanted to.

FYI, garage receptacles must be GFCI now. If this circuit is not GFCI protected, you'll need to make sure the first in the string is GFCI.

# ¿ May 26, 2009 19:04

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

fishhooked posted:

So any thoughts on me using the old chimney to run wire to the attic? I'm hoping to start this project this weekend.

How long would the unsupported vertical section be? And is the chimney sealed off, or open to the elements?

# ¿ May 27, 2009 15:49

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

I suppose it's too late to recommend replacing your doorbell with another wired vice wireless, huh? The wires are low voltage, so it's not terribly dangerous, but they still shouldn't be hanging there entergized. So, find the doorbell transformer on the other end of those wires, and disconnect it. Easy

I wouldn't rip any of it out; that way, you (or the next owner/tenant) can put in a wired doorbell back in down the road when the wireless one dies.

IsaacNewton posted:

Well I'm preparing to get a permit for this, hoping to have some help..

Here's how I plan to install this;

100amp breaker (it can do 240v since it's a double pole) @ the house panel, (Why don't they make 70 amp breakers to match their 70amp panels?)
70amp panel (8 slots) in the garage

For now I'll only drop 2 15 amp breakers (1 for external light, 1 for internal lights) 2 20 amp breakers (one for each sides of the garage's wall electrical outlets) into it, but I will have room to add the breaker needed for a compressor etc.

How's this sounding to you guys?

No, you can't do that. You can't provide 100A overcurrent protection to a 70A panel, you have to size the breaker for the circuit. You can feed it with a 60A or 70A breaker, but nothing larger than 70A. Your other option is to just buy a larger sub panel, as they're really not all that expensive.

grover fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Jul 15, 2009

# ¿ Jul 15, 2009 02:46

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

IsaacNewton posted:

Thanks guys, appreciate the help.

babyeatingpsychopath, is this what you refer to? My house is equipped in Federal (pretty much brand new install), so I figured I'd match the garage.

I found this while trying to find a wiring diagram, this looks right to you guys?

Edit: Added some question; Can I mount the panel on particle boards or is plywood the only way to go? Should the wire be covered in the garage, since it's so large (the wire would be exposed about 4 feet coming from the ground otherwise)?

Is it an attached or detached garage? Attached garage doesn't need a new ground rod, but detached would. Aside from the red and black wires shown off opposite sides of the breaker in the main panel (they'll be off the same side), it looks like exactly what you want to do.

You can mount the panel to whatever you want, there's no code that says plywood or particle board, it just has to be suitable. I flush-mounted my garage panel between two studs. Just make sure you have something to staple to, as you need to secure all those cables within 12" of the panel.

BTW, you'll need #4-3 w/#8 ground for a 70A panel, or #1-3 w/ #8 ground if it's a 100A panel. Larger is OK. If it's a long run, you might need to go larger for voltage drop anyway.

# ¿ Jul 15, 2009 21:03

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

ChesterJT posted:

GFI outlets: I understand these to be like #1 on a chain so if something surges or whatever it will pop it thus saving everything down the line? Should there be more than one in a house my size? My home inspector seemed to think there would just be one in the house. I saw someone mention earlier they are just used around water and such, so the only outlets aligned with it would be the bathrooms, kitchen, and garage? How can I tell exactly which outlets are on it? Just do the test button and see which outlets don't work?

If your house was built in 2002, there should be 2 GFCI circuits in your kitchen, 1 for your bathrooms (sometimes 1 for each bathroom), and everything in your garage and outside also must be on GFCI. Basically, it's required to have at least 4 in every new house. The easiest way to find out what's on what is, like you said, test the outlets and see what receptacles you lose.

ChesterJT posted:

If I were to do anything panel related, do I need to contact my electric company to shut off service to the house to make it safe? Or is there some switch between my panel and the source from the pole/meter/wherever that I can operate myself?

Depends what you want to do that's panel related. If you just want to install a new breaker, then no, you wouldn't have to call the power company, you'd just shut off the main breaker. If you want to upgrade your main breaker or something that requires touching the wires coming in from the meter, you'd need to have your power secured.

ChesterJT posted:

I'm looking at building up the patio area with a short brick wall with some switch powered low wattage lights every x feet. I already have an outside light attached to the house with a switch but it's of course higher up. Can I just connect a line up to that and run it down the wall and have it pop out lower to the ground so that I can run it inside the brick and wire the lights? What considerations would I have to watch for when adding them on? Total amps on the circuit?

Yes, you can tap off that light for your low voltage lights. Total amps is a concern, but you're not talking about much, it doesn't sound like. There are some other issues with running this you'd need to be concerned with; I'd recommend asking back with more details when you get closer.

# ¿ Jul 21, 2009 10:39

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

babyeatingpsychopath posted:

I don't know about Federal in Canada, but Federal Pacific in the US is electrician-speak for "house-consuming electrical fire deathtrap in a box."

If there are still available knockouts on the bottom, it should be fine to punch another one out and feed a wire in from the bottom. The "metal part protecting the naughty bits" is called the deadfront, because if you remove it and touch something, you're dead. US Code says you have to have that installed, Canadian code probably does as well.

Naw, new federal pacific are cheap, but they're not fiery deathtraps like their 70s "no-break" breakers were.

That said, if you're looking at a house built in the 70s and it's got an FPE panel and you open it up and not a spec of copper to be seen... RUN!!!!

# ¿ Jul 28, 2009 23:05

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

babyeatingpsychopath posted:

But really, since your walls are open, now is the perfect time to rewire everything up to current code. This means AFCI in bedrooms, GFCI practically everywhere else, and the proper number of circuits for kitchens/bathrooms/etc.

That's old code, though. New code expands AFCI to the rest of the house. And everything's supposed to be tamper-resistant now, too.

I do second your recommendation, though- 12/2, replace the panel, and bring it all up to modern standards!

# ¿ Aug 11, 2009 10:58

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

leseak posted:

With the information given, and under my circumstances I think I am going to try and get rid of the old box by running new wire from the new box to everything the old box covered, which I think is mostly only the kitchen. As much as I would love to bring everything up to current code I don't have the skills or money to do so. So my new plan is to start every string with a GCFI and run 14/2 from the old plug-in's to some new ones. With this plan do you think I will run into any problems? Is there a limit of how many per "string" I can have? I was also told to run 12/2 to my kitchen for things like a microwave and whatnot, does this also mean I need a 20 amp breaker and GFCI?

Code requires kitchens to have two 20A GFCI circuits. Things like a built-in dishwasher and garbage disposal are supposed to be separate from these. You can extend the strings into the dining room, butlers pantries, and other kitchen-related rooms but they're not supposed to serve outlets anywhere else in the house. The bathrooms have to be on a dedicated 20A GFCI circuit, too. You can do the bathroom(s) one of you ways- you can share a single 20A GFCI circuit between multiple bathrooms if you only put receptacles on the circuit, or you can have one GFCI circuit per bathroom and put the bathroom lights & fan on it, too. It can't serve anything but the bathroom(s).

The rest may be 15A (14/2) if you want to reuse existing cabling. (I recommend 12/2 for all new circuits, though.) Only a few outlets have to be GFCI, mostly stuff near water. AFCI (arc-fault) is a relatively new 2008 requirement that was expanded from bedrooms to cover the rest of the house; it may or may not be invoked in your locality yet, you'd have to check. Either way, you'd still have to put AFCI breakers on circuits feeding your bedroom at $30+ a pop.

grover fucked around with this message at 10:58 on Aug 12, 2009

# ¿ Aug 12, 2009 10:54

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Tequila Mockingbird posted:

Not sure what kind of wiring problem this could possibly be. We're at a total loss!

The top floor of our townhouse lost power last night. The rest of house is fine, but when you get to the top floor nothing. Last night we turned on the light in the ensuite bathroom and lost all power to the floor. Breaker didn't trip (we flipped it, waited, put it back on) and all of the fuses are fine. None of the lights or outlets on the top floor work. Any chance you know why our top floor run out of electricity?

The top floor has 1.5 bathrooms and a master bedroom. Is this something anyone can advise on?

Might be a loose connection in a wirenut somewhere. I'd start with the light switch, turn the breaker back off and check all the connections, and work from there back to the panel.

# ¿ Aug 27, 2009 00:35

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Dragyn posted:

I'm afraid to ask this, but my father and I have been working on rewiring my garage/barn.

We replaced the fuse panel with an updated breaker panel and rewired from the main. That worked great. Right now there are 2 15amp breakers for lights, wired with romex 12/2 and 2 strings out outlets on 20amp breakers wired with romex 14/2.

I have a funny feeling that I just wired 12 outlets with the wrong wire and will now not pass an inspection. Am I right?

Yeah, you can't put a 20A breaker on a #14 circuit. #14 = 15A max, #12=20A max. It's OK to use a 15A breaker on #12 wire, though kinda pointless. If you swap the breakers, and you're fine from that standpoint.

# ¿ Sep 15, 2009 22:46

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

bgack posted:

I want to wire 2 outlets in my garage on the ceiling for garage door openers. These will be surface mounted in metal flex. I want to run these back to a switch box that is currently located between the garage doors. This switch is a three way that controls the existing lights in the garage. The other three way switch is by the cellar door, maybe 20 feet away.

If I replace the three way switch at the cellar door with a two way, and then remove the other three way (between the garage doors), I should be able to just make this switch box a junction box and wire my outlets from there. Is this the easiest way to do this? I would just disregard the red cable, and connect the white and black to my new two way at the cellar door. I obviously don't care about losing the switch between the garage doors. Anything else to consider?

Code requires there be a light switch at all entrances, so you may not be able to do this.

Have you identified which switch has the hot line from the panel, and which is going to the light? And verified that it's straight-through wiring, and not a switch loop?

If you can find the incoming always-hot line, I'd recommend just splicing off that with a red wire nut, and leave your light switches the way they are. Run the flex to whichever box has the always-hot line.

# ¿ Sep 18, 2009 21:22

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

bgack posted:

The hot line and wire to the lights are at the cellar entrance switch. The garage switch is just a loop. The only wiring connection from the switch at the garage door goes back to the cellar door switch. The cellar door switch box then runs back to the panel. Your advice makes sense, and would probably be just as easy. thanks

Good luck! When did you plan on starting this?

# ¿ Sep 18, 2009 23:29

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

The holes in the box are all threaded, and accept various watertight and non-watertight couplings. You need the watertight fittings to maintain watertight integrity. Also, you can't use normal romex (NM-B) cable outside because it's not waterproof, and would have to use UF instead (just like romex but waterproof).

A regular old box with an exterior faceplate is fine, too. Depends on your finish as to whether you'd be able to seal it properly. Both methods are common and fine.

And to reiterate, all exterior receptacles must be GFCI protected.

# ¿ Sep 23, 2009 00:05

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

All exterior conduit and boxes are considered to be damp locations. If it's flush-mount, you can use NM, but you need THWN or UF for exterior. Your inspector might be lenient with you, though; it wouldn't hurt to call and ask if you already have the NM.

# ¿ Sep 23, 2009 00:26

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

What kind of motion sensors are you using? I've found some to be incompatible with fluorescent lights and kill bulbs rather quickly.

Also, what ballasts?

# ¿ Sep 25, 2009 11:58

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

EssOEss posted:

The motion sensors are Steinel IS 3360. The ballasts are Alter PC-J220 L1 (digital type) and the ballasts for the two replaced 2-bulb fixtures are VS ELXc 236.208 (electronic type).

In the fine print, it's only rated for 600W for electronic ballast fluorescent lights, not 1kW. Are you exceeding this anywhere? I don't know what they mean by "10 AX max., VDE tested (fluorescent tube)"

To verify, are you using 230V 50Hz? I don't know anything reliability-wise about the specific ballasts you're using, but from what you've posted, I suspect defective ballasts as the root cause. Which *should* be the manufacturer's problem to fix, not yours. Have you contacted your supplier to see if other bad ballasts have been returned?

# ¿ Sep 27, 2009 19:22

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Once upon a time, the alternator in my car died. I replaced it, it died about a month later. I replaced it under warranty, it died about a month later. I replaced it under warranty, it died about a month later. I replaced it under warranty, it died about three months later. I replaced it under warranty, and this one lasted just to the end of the warranty period and died, too. Only THEN did I go somewhere else and got an alternator that wasn't a piece of poo poo, and it lasted for years without issue.

Moral of the story: most often if everything is failing, an outside force is at work. But on the other hand... poo poo parts are poo poo parts, no matter how many of them fail. I'd replace a few more with a new brand and see how they hold up. If that fixes it, suck it up and replace them all.

# ¿ Sep 28, 2009 23:23

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

bort posted:

I have an old-school round thermostat that I'm contemplating replacing with a programmable one. It has two wires, but they're both brown, not red and white like they're supposed to be.

What's a safe way to figure out what's hot & what's ground? Neither side of the thermostat or the holes or wires seem to be marked. I know what breaker it's on, but I figure if I shut off power to it I won't be able to tell.

Edit: I think I got it, someone just snipped an extension cord and wired it to the heater. I should probably just put in new wires with proper colors.

There are different kinds of thermostats. Yours is a switch style, where it controls the full current required for the heater; most modern programmable ones just use control logic and switch relays or transistors, so be careful when you select a replacement. You may end up having to install a separate relay to handle it. You can get battery powered thermostats, so you don't necessarily need to install a power supply.

# ¿ Oct 2, 2009 20:27

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

stealie72 posted:

Depends how it's been wired.

If the circuit leading to the light passes through the switch, and you have both the hot and neutral in the box, then yeah, it's not difficult to do.

Yep. If it's a switch loop, you can't do much- you can tell it's a switch loop if there is exactly one cable with 2 wires and a ground in the box.

If you have a hot coming in, and a switched hot going out, you can install a receptacle. You have options; one of which is to install a switch/receptacle combo which should allow you to meet code with a light switch *and* have a receptacle. Another option is to leave the switch alone but splice off the wires, and fish it down the wall to a new receptacle box. So long as you're staying within a single wall cavity, this isn't too hard to do.

# ¿ Oct 7, 2009 02:50

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Dragyn posted:

My new house has an existing electrical wire that controls the lights on the outside of the garage, over the driveway, via a switch in the house. This wire runs underground through an buried pipe, along side a couple of other wires I have since disconnected.

My plan is to use the old electrical wire as a lead to snake the new updated romex through the pipe using the old electrical tape method.

Here's my problem. Once I get the electrical through, I'd also like to run a Cat5 (I have UTP) and a coaxial cable through the pipe. I know full well that running data cable parallel with a power cable is just asking for interference trouble.

Does anyone here have any experience with it? Could I buy some STP Cat5 and run it alongside in hopes that the shielding is enough to ward off interference. How about the coax? is it shielded enough normally?

You can't run NM-B (romex) through underground conduit; anything underground is considered to be "wet" and you can safely assume it will will with water (even if ostensibly watertight and with both ends above ground) and plan accordingly. You can use UF (essentially waterproof romex), but UF and romex aren't designed to be pulled through conduit and you might have quite a struggle on your hands. Individial THWN wires or something else along that line is what professional electricians usually use inside conduit.

It's illegal to pull cat5 in the same conduit as THWN. UF and romex are considered to be their own raceways, so I *think* you can pull in Cat5 and UF through a single conduit legally, but normally, it's illegal to run comm and power cables through a common raceway. It may be damaged when the conduit floods, though.

Using the old cable to pull in new cable is a good method, BTW. Alternately, you can use the old cable to pull in a snake, and then use the snake to pull in the new cable.

grover fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Oct 16, 2009

# ¿ Oct 16, 2009 18:44

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

dyne posted:

Hey guys, I'm upgrading the wiring in the house I bought and have a few questions. The house is from the 1930s, has no grounded outlets, but did have a circuit breaker installed some time ago. It has an unfinished basement and an attic, so I figured I could just run wiring up a wall to the attic and then down into the 2nd floor walls.

questions:
1) Any advice on books that will walk me through what I need to make sure everything is to code?
2) Is it a problem running wiring to the attic through a wall that shares water lines and the main plumbing stack?
3) Should I put a sub-panel in the attic?
4) Good place to buy materials? Any online retailer that would give me better prices than lowes?

You can't put a sub-panel in the attic, though, there are strict requirements for accessibility that I doubt your attic meets. You can put connection boxes up there, though. You can fish lines through a wet well, it's not a problem. You should be supporting the cables at some point, though; you don't want them just dangling 2 stories. Running from the basement to the attic and fishing down is very likely the best way to do this without tearing up walls.

For the volumes you're looking at, Lowes and Home Depot are just fine. Do yourself a favor, and install all #12, don't bother with #14, even where you think you're only going to use #14.

Alternately, you can legally replace your ungrounded outlets with GFCI outlets- only the first on the string must be a GFCI, and then you can legally replace all outlets fed from that GFCI with 3-prong outlets (all must be marked GFCI PROTECTED and UNGROUNDED). This will protect from electric shock and is the only legal way to plug 3-prong devices into an ungrounded outlet, but still won't provide a ground, so your computer case will be floating, etc.

grover fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Oct 16, 2009

# ¿ Oct 16, 2009 18:50

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

skeetio posted:

I have a Siemens panel (200A) in my recently purchased house (2003 construction). One thing I have discovered and been unable to rectify is that the none of the outside outlets seem to work. Upon looking at the panel, there is an open spot covered in a electrical tape where it appears a breaker once was. So my sharp deductive reasoning leads me to believe that for some reason the previous homeowner removed the breaker for the outside outlets and never replaced it. Why he did this is mystery and I have no way of contacting him to see why. The outlets appear to be in good condition and I have no reason to believe there may be a wiring fault that would cause him to totally remove the breaker.

I purchased a replacement 15A breaker, however when I got home I noticed that I had a Square D QO HOM breaker where the rest of the breakers in the panel are Siemens QP breakers. The QO appears to fit and there seems to be some suggestions on the Internet that these are compatible parts. My question is can I safely substitute the SquareD breaker for the Siemens (and does this violate code?) or will my panel box explode in a shower of sparks? Furthermore, should I just break down and contact an electrician to try and diagnose why the previous homeowner removed the breaker in the first place?

tl;dr: Can I substitute a Siemens QP breaker for a Square D QO breaker and not violate code or the safety of my family.

Look on the door of your panel, and the packaging of your breaker. Some SquareD breakers are cross-listed and UL-tested as substitutes for Siemens breakers, but others aren't.

Is this the breaker you bought?
http://ecatalog.squared.com/fulldetail.cfm?partnumber=HOM120

Without knowing why the previous homeowner taped if off, it's impossible to say whether energizing it is safe or not- did a worker put a nail through a wire somewhere? Was a neighbor constantly stealing power? Who knows.

grover fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Oct 31, 2009

# ¿ Oct 31, 2009 18:16

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

slap me silly posted:

I'm replacing a bathroom fan. The light and fan are on separate switches in the current installation. Aaaand... it's done via a 14/3 drop, power supplied to the fixture, so if I want to install some sort of clever timer switch I have to run more wire, because there's no neutral at the switch. gently caress. Suggestions? Is there some kind of timer I can install at the fan unit? It's one of these bad boys:
http://www.nutone.com/product-detail.asp?ProductID=11032

You can't use that fancy-pants timer on a switch loop without running a neutral to it. You can, however, use a simple mechanical timer instead. They use a spring and just open/close mechanical contacts, so there's no need for a neutral.

# ¿ Nov 16, 2009 00:33

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

babyeatingpsychopath posted:

Run a new wire. Installing a new, hidden j-box is just asking for someone else to get really pissed off that you cheaped out on 16" of wire.

This is rather overkill for a rehab job where demo would probably be required to do this. Accessibility IS a code requirement, so a buried box would be illegal, but an old work box in the ceiling and accessible from the bathroom would be just fine, as would a box mounted above the insulation.

Fart Jesus LOL posted:

I've got a question and figured this thread should do the trick. I was making coffee this morning on the electric stove and realized it took a bizarrely long amount of time. The stove was just not working very well. When the coffee was ready and I was drinking it, the light in my kitchen went dimmer and dimmer until it went off, and so did my radio. I checked the fuses but they are ok, and when one blows lights and everything go off in a second, they don't just slowly stop working. I tried to turn the stove on again, and the light and radio also did! So what is going on? Is my stove short-circuiting something? This is very confusing. Thank you very much.

Sounds like you may have a loose or corroded connection somewhere. Did this impact circuits throughout the house, or only in your kitchen? Are these all sharing the same fuse, or on multiple circuits?

grover fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Nov 21, 2009

# ¿ Nov 21, 2009 14:31

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

eddiewalker posted:

I'm assuming this is a wiring question, so here goes: the lights dim way more than I'd expect them to when any large appliance cycles on. The central air is the worst culprit, but I've noticed it with a vacuum cleaner, and even a small corded drill.

I stuck my logging multimeter into a random wall socket, which read around 130vac. Then I flipped the air conditioner on, and the outlet power dropped by 12vac, staying at 118vac until the air conditioner cycled off. 130v without a load seems a little high, but maybe it's no big deal. I'm pretty sure a 12 volt drop is a pretty big swing, though.

Just in my minor poking around replacing switches and outlets for cosmetic reasons, I haven't run into anything that looks hacked together, so I'd like to have some faith in the house wiring. Its a 1976 build.

Am I worrying too much, and should I just ignore the dimming light, or is it possibly indicative of a larger problem?

That sounds like excessive voltage drop, probably from a long undersized feeder cable. It's one thing to dip 12V momentarily when your AC starts up and there's a big in-rush of current, but your voltage should never exceed 125V or dip under 110V, and it should not change more than 6V, no matter how much or how little you plug in.

How far is it from your house to the transformer?

# ¿ Nov 23, 2009 23:24

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

eddiewalker posted:

Well, all my wiring is underground, but there's a small plastic electrical company box in the corner of my yard. It looks similar to a large, upside down flower pot, so I don't know if its big enough to be an actual transformer.

Someone was hypothesizing something about a loose neutral on the mains maybe providing an inadequate return path for the power, but I don't know how likely that is. If it's something I need to call the utility provider about, I'd like to be informed before I deal with them.

A loose neutral or bad ground could cause all sorts of issues. What's the voltage from neutral to ground? Can you check this vs copper pipes or something else you know to be solidly grounded? Should always be close to 0V.

Transformers are generally at least the size of a garbage can. Most residential tranformers are pole-mounted cans, or locked boxes about the size of a desk. Anything like that on your block? Each will typically feed a handful of homes in order to keep the low-voltage lines short. If it's a long way from your house to yours, this could very well be the problem. If so, complain to your power company- it's their fault and not yours.

Mr. Clark2 posted:

Is there an easy way to tell if the service drop going into a house is 120 or 240 volt?

You mean besides measuring it with a voltmeter?

If there are two insulated wires and one uninsulated wire, it's 240V. Also, if there are any 2-pole breakers in your panel, it's 240V. Nearly all residential drops in the US are 240V.

grover fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Nov 25, 2009

# ¿ Nov 25, 2009 18:33

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Mr. Clark2 posted:

Thanks! I just checked mine and it is exactly as you described.
Another drop related question. There is a neighborhood near mine where all the houses have 2 mastheads. They're all single family homes, built around the same time, probably late 60's to early 70's. Pretty much everywhere else that I've looked, the homes all have only one masthead. Any idea why this is might be?

They were likely originally duplexes with two services. Otherwise, code is pretty strict about 1 service entry only.

# ¿ Nov 25, 2009 20:17

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

None of that stuff should be tripping the breaker, not if that's all that's on the circuit. Normally, the culprit is something like a space heater, coffee pot or microwave- anything designed to heat as quickly as possible will draw a ton of power. You wouldn't happen to have a space heater, would you?

The dryer should be on it's own circuit. The washing machine shouldn't draw all that much power. And no, there's nothing illegal about having so many outlets on one circuit, but it's clearly poorly designed.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2010 03:12

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

bimmian posted:

I don't have a space heater or anything that would be a power hog like that. Assuming then just poor design, can I just have them put in a bigger breaker?

Please, to NOT do this. The breaker is sized to protect the wires, and trip before the wires catch fire- 20A for #12 and 15A for #14. Just changing the breaker would be a fire hazard.

If what you listed really is all that's on the circuit, that's only 4 or 5A at most, and it shouldn't be overloaded or tripping. So, there is a chance the breaker could be going bad, in which case it would be perfectly fine to replace it with the same size breaker. I'd try this first, it's only $2 or so. If you find more stuff plugged in than you realize, the permanent solution is to add more breakers and split the circuit up.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2010 04:16

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# ¿ May 8, 2024 10:08

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Chasie posted:

I have an upstairs room for which the electricity (lights and three outlets) all seem to be running through a wire-nutted connection behind a plate by the door leading upstairs. This room was an attic at one point and I'm guessing this was the light switch. There's another connection behind this plate as well.

Over the weekend I overloaded things up here and the connection shorted out but didn't trip the breaker (so I had one room with no lights and no breakers tripped). I redid the connection and now everything's working again, but would it be appropriate to put a light switch here? My overriding concern is, is it safe to have all this juice flowing through a light switch, if I have, say, a TV and an air conditioner, etc. running through it? Never had any problems with the connection before.

Switch on, electricity on upstairs. Switch off, no juice.

You can use a switch, but the switch must be rated for it. (EG, 15A if it's a 15A breaker or 20A for a 20A breaker.) Most of the cheap ones are only rated for 10A and will quickly burn out (fire hazard) if you try to power heavy loads through them. Air conditioners and other large motor loads may still be an issue. They have large in-rush currents on startup that can exceed 20A for a fraction of a second and while not enough to trip the breaker, light switches aren't really designed to handle.

It's OK to have the receptacles hardwired and just the light on a switch, too. There's no code issues with putting receptacles and lights on the same circuit, but as you've noticed, it's a poor design.

grover fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Jan 10, 2010

# ¿ Jan 10, 2010 18:13

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Hobbies, Crafts, & Houses > Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

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