Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Hobbies, Crafts, & Houses > Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

Ahz posted:

I have a basement I want to finish and the builder left it with steel studs surrounding the foundation walls, insulated and sealed off with vapour barrier. Now I want to run electrical before I put drywall up. It's not a large basement, only 26'x26' square, but I figure I have three options ahead of me, which do you think would be easiest? FYI, I already have about 200' of romex 14/2 wire that I have leftover from finishing the garage. FYI, there's no code here requiring conduit of any fashion inside the home.

I can use my existing 14/2 romex and run it through my ceiling and for every recepticle I can run it down the stud and then back up into the ceiling to get to the next recepticle or switch. Are there any code issues with this? I believe this would mean the wire is just floating / falling down the side of the steel stud and getting clamped off at the recepticle box. I wouldn't actually be stapling the wire to the stud in any way since I don't want to rip down the vapour barrier if I go this route.

I can buy shielded 14/2 cable and somehow route it horizontally through my steel studs rather than wasting wire by travelling down 7ft and back up again for every run. Though now I would have to buy shielded cable and cut my vapour barrier at various areas to fish it through all my studs.

I can rip down the vapour barrier and install guards to prevent any cutting hazard in all the stud holes so that I can use regular romex horizontally run through the studs. But then I would want to try reusing vapour barrier, or would I have to buy new stuff?

Or maybe I rip down all the lovely steel studs and reframe with timber and start fresh, reusing my batt insulation?

Opinions?

I would have to imagine that replacing your barrier is cheaper than wasting copper wire by going up and down at every stud. I'd just go horizontally through your wall, and deal with the vapor barrier.

# ¿ Mar 6, 2009 18:44

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 07:46

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

You could always run wiremold up your wall and to wherever you want your light to be.

# ¿ May 26, 2009 04:12

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

You can run along joists, just not across the bottoms.

# ¿ May 28, 2009 20:22

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

benitocereno posted:

I'm currently in the process of remodeling my kitchen (some of you may know me from the plumbing/other home threads). I need to move my 220 line for my stove (it's currently hard-wired from a junction box) about 15 feet. I had a guy come out who said he could move it by wiring off of the existing box, going through my crawlspace, and up the other side into a receptacle. He understood the amp requirements (I'm getting a much newer stove, but it only takes 40 amps while my line is 50), etc, etc. He's done work for some friends and comes highly recommended, but he is not licensed (he's an HVAC and general handyman, I found this out after, even though he has done electrical work for my friends).

Now, because I don't want to burn my house down or invalidate my insurance, does this kind of work require that a permit is pulled and does it need to be done by a licensed electrician? I see a lot of advice on google for DIY 220 moving (which I am not comfortable doing), but nothing referencing the need for a permit outside of adding a new line or going outside of the existing structure (to a spa, for instance).

Any advice is definitely appreciated, thanks!

There are legal ways around using a licensed electrician. Most jurisdictions allow the homeowner to do his/her own electrical. So, if you are really into saving money by not hiring licensed electrician, Which you should do BTW, then basically, "you" get the permit and "you" do the work with help from your buddy. Do you get what I'm saying here?

Of course, the best way would be to hire a professional licensed electrician to do it. It'll cost you more, but if this guy fucks something up and either starts a fire or wires something incorrectly, he's probably not covered for damages.

# ¿ Jun 2, 2009 01:47

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

NEC 250.140 allows you to stick with the 3 wire when you replace your range. You can either pull the old whip off of the older range or buy a new one. You are permitted to use the grounded neutral as an equipment grounding conductor and I believe that the range should come with a little jumper that goes from your neutral connection to the ground screw.

# ¿ Jun 2, 2009 02:22

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

Here is what you need to do. You've got the red and black wires going out of the top of your box, those go to the fan and the light. Find the one that goes to the light. You can do this by connecting each one, one at a time, to the main hot coming from your panel. Once you figure out which wire is which then do the following:

1. Pigtail the wire that goes to the light to one of the dimmer wires.
2. Pigtail your hot to both the second dimmer wire as well as the fan wire.
3. This will make it so that the fan is always powered and you can turn it on and off at the chain, and will make the light controlled by the dimmer.
4. The green ground wire should be pigtailed to your bare grounding conductor, if one is available. Or if you've got metal boxes that are grounded connect with a grounding screw or clip.

edit: Disregard this diagram and use second one below.

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RedReverend fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Jun 2, 2009

# ¿ Jun 2, 2009 23:43

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

Whoops wrong one. This is the correct way to wire it.

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# ¿ Jun 2, 2009 23:44

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

babyeatingpsychopath posted:

Your conduit and splice box are full of water. Underground conduit always gets full of water. Dig up the junction box, install some direct burial splices, rebury the box. You could also dig up the box, drain and dry it, fill all conduit entries with approved potting compound (RTV, silicone, etc), then close it back up. Ideally, you'd dig up the box, repair the pipe, and repull the wire to have a continuous run. Insulation doesn't care AT ALL about water, but splices do.

I've never run into a buried jbox before, but I don't think that it's allowed. They should be accessible at all times. So shouldn't he just go ahead and remove the box and just run new wire so there is no need for a splice?

# ¿ Jun 28, 2009 02:34

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

Here's one I can't explain. My wife rented a carpet shampooer which only works on one receptacle. She asked me if I was loving with the panel as none of the receptacles in the living room worked. I checked them with my voltmeter and they were reading hot. The entire circuit in that room is fine, but for some reason, the shampooer won't run. Plug anything else into the receptacles and it works fine.

I am at a loss, I told her that there isn't any reason that I can think of why it isn't working. In fact, there is NO reason that it shouldn't be working. Am I crazy or what?

# ¿ Aug 15, 2009 05:27

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

stubblyhead posted:

I have an old house which has no exterior receptacles. I've finally decided that I'm tired of snaking an extension cord through an open door or window and am going to install some. A question about the box, though. I bought a couple very similar to this:

which I understand are intended to be installed on the outside of the wall rather than flush, which is ok. My question though, is do I need to have some kind of fitting for the opening I use to maintain water-tightness? Just having a hole in my wall with romex sticking out directly into the box seems very wrong to me.

Alternatively, if I wanted to go with a flush installation, can I just use a regular old work box with an exterior faceplate?

You can use that. See the hole in the back of it? If you put a small hole in the wall, you can snake your wires through it into the back of the box. Mount your box to the wall but be sure to seal around it with some caulking or similar substance. You will need to use a gfci receptacle on it and make sure that you put a waterproof cover onto it after you have it mounted.

# ¿ Sep 22, 2009 23:20

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

dyne posted:

Thanks for the advice. You're right, I can't put a sub-panel in the attic because I have one of those fold down stairway entrances to it. I've also heard about the GFCI thing, but half the outlets in the house don't work as-is and we need to add a bunch anyways .

At what interval should the wire from the basement to attic be supported? I can punch as many holes in the wall as I want but I'd like to keep it to a minimum
I have 3 bedrooms, hallway and a bathroom upstairs that will be rewired - how many circuits should I divide those into? And do I need to run a separate 12/2 cable for each circuit?

I plan on doing a similar project in my two story house. What I'm going to do is bore a hole in one of my non-load bearing walls all the way down to the basement big enough to run probably trade size 1 1/2 or 2. I'll run my wires through that all the way from basement to second floor. Plus, since i'll have a bit of extra fill that if I ever need to run any other wires through, I can use the same conduit without making any more holes. All you have to do is secure the conduit and put a Jbox on each end. Once you come out of the box you anchor accordingly depending on where your wires are going.

As far as your circuits you will need one 20 amp for your bathroom, probably 2 20s for your bedrooms and hallway to be safe and one 15a lighting circuit for the entire floor. You're looking at at least 57 amps of load for your wires. So use 6 awg wire for your home run.

# ¿ Oct 20, 2009 07:33

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

dyne posted:

So supporting the wire on a 2 story vertical run is not necessary if it's through conduit? Can the conduit just be secured in the attic or basement?

If I use a single 6awg wire from the main panel to the attic, wouldn't that really just be 1 circuit for the entire upstairs (note: I can't use a subpanel in the attic).

Right, the wire is considered supported in conduit, or at least I cant find anything in the code that says otherwise. Assuming you are using PVC, the conduit needs to be supported within 3 feet of the top and bottom and if using #1 1/2 or #2 then every 5 feet thereafter. Right, I missed where you said that you aren't putting a subpanel up there.

Then you'll need all of those circuits to be home runs. So you'll need 3 runs of 12/2 and one run of 14/2.

Have you thought about maybe putting a subpanel on your second floor somewhere? It might save you money, running the #6 up there instead of 4 homeruns. I plan on putting it on a wall in my hallway and hanging a picture over it so nobody has to see it.

RedReverend fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Oct 21, 2009

# ¿ Oct 21, 2009 00:09

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

babyeatingpsychopath posted:

I'm not so sure about this. The discount you get on buying a 1000' spool of 12/2 romex probably outweighs the cost of the subpanel and #6.

And don't bother running 14/2 anywhere. Just get the 1000' of 12/2 and use that for everything. You can connect it to 15A breakers if you've got 15A only outlets, then if you (or anyone who ever lives in that house) wants to upgrade to 20A outlets, you're set.

Material isn't the biggest cost in this project: it's time. Spend the few extra bucks and make it overbuilt, since you're saving THOUSANDS of dollars by doing it yourself.

Also, panels must be "readily accessible. Capable of being reached quickly... without requiring those to whom access is requisite to... remove obstacles...." So no pictures over your breaker panel. Also, no panels in bathrooms or over stairs. You have to wonder why there are specific rules not to put a panel in a bathroom, don't you?

Yes, I'm aware of the codes about accessibility. And when the inspector comes by there won't be anything covering the panel. After he's gone though, my wife won't want to look at that panel.

You are right though, I hadn't priced the 12/2 vs #6 w/panel so was just guessing as to it probably being cheaper.

# ¿ Oct 21, 2009 15:45

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

Canuckistan posted:

I'm converting my home range from electric to gas so instead of the 240v outlet I'm using right now I'll need a 120v outlet.

I've already booked an electrician who says the best thing to do is not to remove or change the 240v (for resale reasons) and instead just extend an existing circuit and install a new outlet. I thought that was reasonable since he told me that it'll likely be under $100 to make this happen.

However I just spoke to the gas line installer and he told me that I can just buy an adapter that will essentially just use one of the hot lines on the 240v outlet which will give me my 120v outlet. Total cost of under 10 bucks according to him.

I'm pretty sure that this can't be up to code. Any thoughts?

Should be okay. The cable and breaker will be oversized for what it'll actually be drawing, but there isn't anything illegal about that. Just make sure that you detach the other hot wire from your panel and cap it off. Also, replace your double-pole breaker with a single one.

You might have problems if you don't have a neutral though. I haven't connected that many ranges, but I assume that they all have neutrals. If not, then you can retool your second hot and use it as a neutral. Just make sure you wrap white electrical tape around both ends of the wire to identify it as neutral. Then attach it to your neutral/grounding bus at your panel.

# ¿ Mar 1, 2010 23:22

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

Not unless the AC speficies maximum overcurrent protection at 20.

# ¿ Apr 14, 2010 00:29

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

If it specifies a fuse then I believe that you have to have both.

AC---------FUSE---------Breaker

In line like that.

# ¿ Apr 14, 2010 23:24

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

Thats right, I figured it was something like that.

Off topic: I heard the 2011 Code was going all metric. Is this true?

# ¿ Apr 15, 2010 04:46

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

insta posted:

What are the rules about 220v in rooms that aren't utility rooms? I'm curious about potentially pulling some 220v to my computer room, and installing it against the one wall that all the computers are plugged into.

Nothing wrong with that, but I am curious. Why do you need 220v in your computer room?

# ¿ Dec 7, 2010 21:50

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

Just found out that Washington State, due to budgetary cutbacks is not going to consider implementing the 2011 NEC code until 2012 at the earliest. I'm planning a remodel though this year, and haven't read the new code yet. I am aware of the 14/3 light switch change, but as far as common residential things is there any other big change?

# ¿ Apr 5, 2011 22:24

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

SolidElectronics posted:

How is that supposed to work in practice? My electrical panel isn't some ancient relic, but nobody makes AFCI breakers for it. Even if I had a brand new Square D panel the cost difference is ridiculous. For a 15A breaker, Home Depot wants over $80 for AFCI or $10 for standard. Like hell I'm going to pay an extra $70 to put in a one outlet branch circuit to power my central vac.

What happens if somebody needs to replace a broken receptacle? Would they be required to make that AFCI (which could mean a new breaker, which means new panel, which means the whole house brought up to 2011 code, etc. etc.)

While I was looking into it I came across this video which suggests that it's being pushed back until 2014 to allow AFCI receptacles to come on the market, is that correct?
http://www.youtube.com/user/MikeHoltNEC#p/u/16/IHZ1FsR2dh4

Sorry if I sound a bit harsh, that's not my intention, I just have a lot of questions about how these changes will affect modifications to slightly older existing homes.

Which is why I'm going to get as much done this year before Washington State adopts the 2011. AFCIs are ridiculously expensive. As for a broken receptacle, you can go ahead and replace it without having to update your panel. Your system will be grandfathered in and you will be okay unless you add something new or do any other work to your panel.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2011 22:26

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

Bad Munki posted:

I think you underestimate what extreme determination can do with a 3/4" drill.

Quick question: am I allowed to run 14/3 romex (or "14/2 with ground", as the wire I have handy says) inside metal conduit? And if not, what do I use instead?

Also, can someone just sanity-check my work, make sure I put this thing together right? It's going to go under the workbench up against the wall, I was just assembling it there because it's easier to work on while I get everything measured/cut/wires run, etc. I just want to make sure I'm not overlooking some stupid, painfully obvious thing.

Also, this is the wire I want to use in it, since I have a bunch of it handy:

The whole thing will be fed off a new 15A line from the breaker box which I have yet to install, and will hook up to that via the nearest box.

e: Meh, I just went ahead and did it with that wire. Everything I read made it sound like it's not normal, due to running romex through conduit being a hassle, but there's no (national) code disallowing it, provided you still meet all the conduit fill requirements and such. In this case, one line in 1/2" conduit, and nothing over 4' long, I'm pretty sure it'll meet code. Got the thing installed, and now I just need to run a line back to the panel to drop in the new circuit.

if you strip the jacket off of the cable then it is allowed. Run just the wires through your new conduit.

# ¿ Aug 11, 2012 17:01

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

dwoloz posted:

My power company, PGE, is going to be installing service to my property for the first time. They tell me I can get a drop from their pole max of 150ft and they'll run 1/0 aluminum. What I don't understand is that they keep on telling me that this is 200A service. Per NEC table 310.15(B)(16) 1/0 alu is good for only 120A. What gives?

Simple answer, the poco doesn't have to follow the NEC. They size their services based on what they think your peak demand will be at a given time. You probably won't ever get near 200 amps let alone 120. Source: I'm a poco engineer.

It's fun to watch the Low voltage engineers poo poo themselves when they give you a design showing a 1MVA service and we turn around and give them one sized for 300 or 500 KVA.

# ¿ Aug 11, 2015 05:47

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 07:46

RedReverend: Feb 15, 2003

Hubis posted:

Since you dropped in and made the mistake of exposing your secret identity, I've got a minor issue that I haven't had the time/motivation to sort out:

There's a short run for telecom service over the middle of my back yard that seems to date to very early in this house's lifetime -- at least before the fairly old carport was built, which seems like it would be a much more natural place to run the cable to where it enters the building. In fact, there are two cables: both identical, one of which was just cut at both ends for some reason and is kind of just dangling there. Instead of running about 35' across my back yard, and then another 50' along my eaves to the connection, I'd really love it if it ran the 10' between the lines and the edge of the carport, and then the much shorter distance to the service entrance (removing a bunch of dangling cables).

1) Is this a reasonable thing to ask a provider to do? I'm happy to pay a (non-ridiculous) service fee for it, especially since it would be more secure from downed trees/branches in addition to being much more aesthetically sound.

2) Who on earth would I talk to about it? I'm in Northern VA, so my telecom provider is (in this case) Verizon and Dominion Power owns the poles. I haven't bothered to contact either yet, but I am kind of dreading playing the "it's not our service, talk to the other guy" / "it's not our poles, talk to the other guy" game.

3) If this is reasonable and someone knows the right organization to talk to, how do I describe what I'd like to be done in a way that's clear to them so I don't have to explain it a half-dozen times? Is there a word for this type of request (aside from "some rear end in a top hat homeowner" )?

I can provide photos if you want to see exactly what I'm talking about.

Contact Verizon and ask for them to reroute the service drop. They will charge but it shouldn't be too expensive, probably just a couple hours of labor along with a service charge.

Usually the telecoms rent space on the poles and are allowed to work up to a certain height so I doubt it'll be an issue. Actually, I've been meaning to call and have my phone wire removed completely as I doubt I'll ever have a landline.

# ¿ Aug 12, 2015 01:25

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