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Man, at least one of my bees is getting cranky. I was out clearing some tall weeds around the hive and one of the bees did not like me there one bit. Kept diving at my head and sounded all kinds of angry. I ended up backing off since I was just out there in a shorts, a t-shirt and flip flops but I didn't think I'd have to get geared up (at least in a veil) to work around the hive without going into it.
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Jul 26, 2009 16:06
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Isn't this the time of year that they start getting more aggressive?
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Jul 26, 2009 17:47
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loving. Hell. It's been, what, two or three weeks since I spotted a swarm just hanging out on my fence. I kept thinking "wow, it sure is taking them a long time to find somewhere to go." No. No it hasn't. Those little fuzzy idiots HAVE SET UP SHOP ON MY FENCE. I see wax, the ball got bigger. Goddammit. Yes, I tried to contact beekeepers. No one replied. My pest control guy (out for a different reason) was all ready to kill them. So, now that they are "established" (in the wide loving open, in 100+ degree heat, with little to no shade) will it be harder to get them removed without killing them?
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Jul 30, 2009 00:45
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topenga posted:will it be harder to get them removed without killing them? Yes. Significantly. It's very unusual, to my understanding, for them to just chill out in the open for weeks at a time. They like secluded little cavities that they can fill up with comb, not just any old place where they can start chillin'. Very odd indeed. Pics plz.
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Jul 30, 2009 00:50
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walrusman posted:Yes. Significantly. 7/29 this evening: http://www.flickr.com/photos/topenga_dent/3770485949/ I got the courage to get closer and saw yellowish wax. Yeah, everything I read said that they would move on, find a spot that they could control the temperature, not be out in the open, etc. I guess just under a drat leaf is enough. If I could somehow train them to leave little jars of honey at my back door as an apology, maybe we could work something out.
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Jul 30, 2009 05:04
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holy crap how did i just barely discover this thread! everyone has BEES!!! this is fantastic! I guess I'll post an update on my hive. It survived its first winter, although it was kind of harrowing since there was a 2" deep patty of dead bees in front of my hive.  Early this spring, when it got about 50 degrees, I got into it to see how they fared. I left them with 9 frames of honey in a super, and 2 medium boxes that had at least 4 frames of honey. The bottom box was pretty much completely vacant and empty, and a couple of the frames had mold on them. I guess this is normal, with a little bit of moisture getting in one side somewhere. They just cleaned it up all nice and new. The second box had a little bit of brood and a couple of frames almost totally full of honey still, and the queen had taken up shop in the top super I left them. It had probably 6 frames of honey and 3 frames just chock full of beautiful brood.I left them alone after that, and I've only opened the hive once more, since it's at my old house, and I've yet to move it to my new house's yard. (Ugh what an adventure that's going to be.) I had put a second super on top about the end of May, and when I checked it last time about 2 weeks ago, it was 100% totally _full_ of honey. I nabbed and replaced 7 frames, since they had run out of room and glued the 2 end pieces to the box and I didn't have the means to transport a couple of supremely sticky drippy supers. All in all, the first haul was 30 lbs of honey. So far they're doing beautifully and I couldn't be happier with them. They're sweet and gentle and let me check them without getting pissed off in the least. ____________ TouchyMcFeely, I'm so happy you got a hive! I haven't ever tried foundationless but I'd like to for the comb honey aspect. I'm sorry about your bees not building properly; have you put a popsicle stick horizontally in the upper groove of the frame, to give them a little guidance on what to build on? Also, I run with 9 frames personally, it makes it easier to pull frames out once they propolis the poo poo out of everything. Just keep them tightly bunched in the middle of the box. One more thing, if your bees are getting cranky, and continue to be cranky you could either have no queen, or a mean queen. I'd suggest doing a really good inspection, and locate the queen. If she's there, leave it a couple of weeks and see if something didn't just piss them off that one time. If they're still lovely, I'd say try to find another queen to replace and pinch the bitch. topenga, you can't find a beekeeper to take that swarm off your hands? It should be really super easy for them to just come in, smoke the poo poo out of them, cut that comb off, tie it to a frame and put them all in a box. They're right out in the open!
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Jul 30, 2009 05:35
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melodywise posted:topenga, you can't find a beekeeper to take that swarm off your hands? It should be really super easy for them to just come in, smoke the poo poo out of them, cut that comb off, tie it to a frame and put them all in a box. They're right out in the open! Nope. I hit another bee resource type site today and supposedly it's very hard to find beekeepers to take bees in Texas (and the rest of the southwest). brsr.org posted:Does anyone want my bees, isn’t there a bee shortage? I called these guys this morning. I wish I had found them when the hive was a swarm. But I don't think they'll kill them. I'm waiting on a call back to set up an inspection.Edit: Definitely a live capture! Yay! $200. Boo. topenga fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Jul 30, 2009 |
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Jul 30, 2009 17:27
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melodywise posted:TouchyMcFeely, I'm so happy you got a hive! I haven't ever tried foundationless but I'd like to for the comb honey aspect. I'm sorry about your bees not building properly; have you put a popsicle stick horizontally in the upper groove of the frame, to give them a little guidance on what to build on? Also, I run with 9 frames personally, it makes it easier to pull frames out once they propolis the poo poo out of everything. Just keep them tightly bunched in the middle of the box. Ah, glad you finally found the thread! Unfortunately, I haven't been able to locate the queen since I started. I'm pretty sure she's still in there somewhere but I wasn't able to spot her before the hive got largish. I haven't been in the area of the hive since the little bastard was bombing me. I might get in there to check the progress of the first super but I've been trying to leave them alone as much as possible. I know Africanized have been spotted in St. George but they aren't as far north as SLC yet so I should be good in that regard. Quick question for you since you're here and some folks are getting towards harvesting time: How did you harvest last year? Did you rent a honey extractor from the crazy people in SLC or did you do something with what you had around your house?
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Jul 30, 2009 18:21
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TouchyMcFeely posted:Ah, glad you finally found the thread! I doubt it's an africanized problem, bees tend to get pissy when their queen either vacates or sucks, or something is trying to invade them, like skunks. Check out https://www.beesource.com's forums and see what you can find in there about hot hives. that's a great forum. as for harvesting, i just use a big metal sieve, and a bigger metal bowl. i put the frame over the sieve and use a de-capping comb to just scrape all the whole mess into the sieve.  then i just let the poo poo drain.  i keep the wax leftover in the sieve by melting it down in a pot with water, dumping the whole mess into a bowl to cool and taking the wax off the top of the water/leftover honey mess once it's cooled. i made one batch of chapstick with the wax and coconut oil, flavored with a little bit of honey and it's awesome. we're thinking this year that we'll try an extractor, since my folks' hive swarmed 4 (!) times and they now have way more hives than they did last year. But I really don't mind the old scrape 'n drain method.
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Jul 30, 2009 22:13
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My hive still hasn't touched the super and it's been a month. Also, they keep making supersede cells.
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Aug 4, 2009 21:13
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topenga posted:Nope. I hit another bee resource type site today and supposedly it's very hard to find beekeepers to take bees in Texas (and the rest of the southwest). Wow, $200 is more than half the cost to start bee keeping. I wish people were begging me to take colonies here in Utah. I have seen pictures of bees setting up shop in the open before but it is not common.
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Aug 4, 2009 23:41
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Maximusi posted:My hive still hasn't touched the super and it's been a month. Have you been able to locate your queen?
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Aug 4, 2009 23:59
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Not recently, but there's tiny eggs. I know she's there, I'm just wondering if the bees think she's not preforming up to par. I think my queen is mediocre. I've had this hive since April 26 and they still haven't filled all the frames of both boxes. I've registered my hive in the hopes that someone will inspect it and tell me if this is normal or not. Does the state inspector usually call beforehand or what?
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Aug 5, 2009 01:19
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Maximusi posted:Not recently, but there's tiny eggs. I know she's there, I'm just wondering if the bees think she's not preforming up to par. I think my queen is mediocre. I've had this hive since April 26 and they still haven't filled all the frames of both boxes. That sucks, poor queen. When I registered my hive last year, the inspector did call me up beforehand and I was able to go through my hive with her. Or you could probably call up and ask to have one come over and tell you what's going on. Good luck!
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Aug 5, 2009 06:21
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adept posted:Wow, $200 is more than half the cost to start bee keeping. I wish people were begging me to take colonies here in Utah. I have seen pictures of bees setting up shop in the open before but it is not common. Oh god, don't tell me that. This guy is coming from San Antonio (I'm in Austin), so I am more than happy to pay for his gas and his time. Seriously, if these little guys didn't scare the ever loving crap out of me, I'd keep a hive. Everyone I talked to said that there hive location was very weird. And it just got back into the triple digits again. I half expect to see wax dripping any day now. Edit: Under performing queen: Will the bees decide that the queen is no good and, er, make a new one? Do they kick out the old one or kill her? This is all fascinating.
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Aug 5, 2009 15:47
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melodywise posted:
Another idea similar to the popsicle stick is a paint stick if it will fit in the groove, since it is even larger. Personally I'm just going to use the same kind of comb guides as I put in my top bar hives because I have them mostly ready and they seem really nice. They are little wooden triangles around 1" wide on the largest side and as long as the inside of the frame. I attach them to the frame by predrilling the frame then putting a screw through the top of the frame down into the comb guide... I really like the result but it's probably not worth the trouble. I don't even own a table saw, and I have to borrow one to make this comb guide triangle (right now I just have some left over that I'm going to use on the batch of foundationless frames that arrived yesterday). Michael Bush seems to have some good ideas, I liked his top bar plans okay and he goes into depth on foundationless in this link. http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm We also just received a 1.5" honey gate to make bottling quicker. Last time we harvested 6 frames and found that I had put far too narrow a spigot on the bucket and it did not pour nearly fast enough (this is a huge understatement, I was foolish to even try it). Maybe a full open 3/4" spigot would have worked but the one I tried was smaller. Melody, have you had many bad experiences at Jones Bees? I am ordering gear now because the lady is always rude to me.
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Aug 5, 2009 15:56
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topenga posted:Oh god, don't tell me that. This guy is coming from San Antonio (I'm in Austin), so I am more than happy to pay for his gas and his time. Seriously, if these little guys didn't scare the ever loving crap out of me, I'd keep a hive. Everyone I talked to said that there hive location was very weird. And it just got back into the triple digits again. I half expect to see wax dripping any day now. You can spend $200 on a beekeeping suit actually, we just didn't... So far it is working out but it could be more of a concern in africanized land. The $400 basic setup I was referring to is more like this: 2 hive options: - $25-40 materials cost DIY Kenya Top Bar Hive-this takes time but you have bees now. There are also quick cheap hive options that are not designed to harvest honey from but I don't think you're even allowed to use them in Utah. Removable frames are a requirement I think? - $200 traditional bee hive from the bee store $120 Misc (Smoker/fuel, basic veil, gloves, bee brush, hive tool, sugar) $70 3lb package of bees $0-30 crush and strain honey harvesting setup Another concern about taking the project up yourself is needing to cut combs and wire them onto frames or top bars to get that comb into the hive. I have not done it yet myself and when I do that could be the day I find out I want a better beekeeping suit. It could be a scary task if you haven't had some time to get used to tons of bees flying around you. Maximusi posted:Not recently, but there's tiny eggs. I know she's there, I'm just wondering if the bees think she's not preforming up to par. I think my queen is mediocre. I've had this hive since April 26 and they still haven't filled all the frames of both boxes. I believe our bee inspector works for the state department of agriculture. Maybe you could start there. I know that some bee inspectors would rather devote their time to people who have questions and need help than randomly doing inspections, so you should try to contact them rather than wait in my opinion. adept fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Aug 5, 2009 |
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Aug 5, 2009 16:19
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adept posted:We tried a single foundationless frame this year and will probably be harvesting it tonight. I took a look at the frame a few weeks ago and it was looking beautiful. Since it was only one frame out of 10 we didn't even bother with a comb guide, the other frames foundations kept them going the right direction. We received 12 foundationless frames (and a third super for next year) from brushy mountain bees yesterday and plan to put comb guides on them. If we don't add comb guides I imagine we would alternate the foundationless frames with foundation frames to try and make them less necessary. I like that triangle guide idea, I think I may build something up as soon as I get my hive over to my new house. Who wants to help transport a hive?  As for Jones Bees experiences... they are all.. hmm. God drat insane? I guess? I dunno, that family is nuts. The one lady is really hard to understand with her huge thick Utah accent (and jesus i was born in utah) and IMO they sell sub-par quality equipment because they're the only show in town. My dad is actually sorely tempted to open a bee supply shop just to give them some competition, and allow people to buy better quality equipment for their hives.
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Aug 5, 2009 17:07
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melodywise posted:I like that triangle guide idea, I think I may build something up as soon as I get my hive over to my new house. Who wants to help transport a hive? Yeah, we aren't really happy about the selection there either but it's the customer service issues that will stop me from going back. As far as alternatives, Lee Knight in Lehi sells bee packages and we have been extremely happy with those bees (we got the minnesota hygienic bees). Lee was helpful and friendly. I would not be surprised if there is demand for another small bee store in the salt lake valley, we have wondered about the same thing.
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Aug 5, 2009 18:50
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Lee Knight is where I got my colony from this year. Hrm...so which color Subaru do you guys drive? And nthing the Jones people are weird. I went down there just to check things out and ended up buying a few things but good lord was I creeped out. I also think I may be in the same boat as Maximusi. I went into my hive over the weekend and they haven't touched the first super yet. It's been on for about 2 weeks or so and there isn't any drawn comb on it. I also went into the top deep but couldn't find any indication of the queen. All 10 frames are absolutely loaded with honey but no larva to be found. I'm contemplating requeening (maybe with a russian! I hear they come with tiny hats!) but I'm concerned that it's too late in the season and too hot to ship. I think I'll go into the bottom deep this upcoming weekend and see if I can find any signs of her majesty. edit: Is anyone here register on beesource? If you are, send me a Friend invite or whatever they're called. I'm registered as Micah.
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Aug 6, 2009 04:11
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I don't even check the bottom anymore. It's way too heavy and the last time I tried I messed up my back and killed a bunch of bees. :S But I noticed that the bees are using the bottom mainly for food storage and honey and the top for brood. Kinda strange how that happens. Yeah, I don't think I'm getting honey this year, despite them being super active all the time.
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Aug 6, 2009 05:39
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I checked my bees last night, and was also somewhat disappointed at their (lack of) progress. I guess the local beekeeping club's timeline was accurate when it said honey flow stopped at the end of July; that would definitely coincide with my observations. The last time I checked them, which must be at least two weeks ago, they had almost filled the first super, and made virtually no progress on the top one. Last night I cracked it open and...yeah, pretty much the exact same thing. They have wickedly glued the frames in place, to the point that I think I damaged a couple trying to pull them. There is a ton more propolis than at any time previous, but those little bitches need to be making me honey, not propolis. They were also surprisingly docile last night, which I had heard was unusual for August. At any rate, I have one super virtually full of honey, and a very strong population of bees, so I can't complain too much. So, people who have done this before: how do you go about stealing the full frames from the bees without pissing them off too much?
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Aug 6, 2009 18:46
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walrusman posted:I checked my bees last night, and was also somewhat disappointed at their (lack of) progress. I guess the local beekeeping club's timeline was accurate when it said honey flow stopped at the end of July; that would definitely coincide with my observations. The last time I checked them, which must be at least two weeks ago, they had almost filled the first super, and made virtually no progress on the top one. Bumping the frames firmly against something hard helps knock bees off the frame (watch youtube for this). Then we brush the last few off (I think you brush in an upward motion?), and put the frame in a bin, and close it... Repeat for the rest of the frames. The rubbermaid bin I was using would have only held 4 frames properly and was not doing well by the time I put 6 in, there's probably a better way or I need a better bin. I smoked the bees kinda heavily last time we harvested and I think it made tons of them start eating honey, more than I had ever seen eating honey. I will be trying less smoke next time, hopefully enough to make them docile but not so much that every single bee in the hive is trying to gorge itself on honey. I think it made it harder to clear bees off the frames. And even when I smoked heavily, there are a few bees insisting on buzzing my ears and hair constantly, which is very different from early in the season. T-shirts are way better than polo shirts for this job if you don't wear gear, the bees get caught in my collars and I end up finishing the job shirtless. adept fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Aug 6, 2009 |
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Aug 6, 2009 22:25
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walrusman posted:I checked my bees last night, and was also somewhat disappointed at their (lack of) progress. I guess the local beekeeping club's timeline was accurate when it said honey flow stopped at the end of July; that would definitely coincide with my observations. The last time I checked them, which must be at least two weeks ago, they had almost filled the first super, and made virtually no progress on the top one. I get my hive tool in the edges between the frame and the box and just wiggle around till i feel like i can actually move it without bringing the whole box with me. The little fuckers love to glue poo poo down. Just work slowly and they should come out in one piece. When I harvest frames of honey, instead of bumping it on something (and maybe squishing bees) I generally just shake the poo poo out of the frame once and brush the stragglers. Shake it by moving it up and then sort of... "snapping" it down. So it's like a sudden stop at the bottom. Only do it once, maybe twice. I like to do it in front of the hive entrance, so they don't have to go so far to get back in the hive. Then, like adept said, just brush the klingons off. Congrats on your hive being strong! How many supers are you running on it?
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Aug 6, 2009 23:14
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melodywise posted:Congrats on your hive being strong! How many supers are you running on it? Cool, thanks for the advice. Just two supers: the one that's essentially full, and the one that's essentially empty. For it being my first year, I think they did fairly well. I can't wait until next year, when the comb will be all drawn out already and they can concentrate on making more honey.
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Aug 6, 2009 23:39
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walrusman posted:Cool, thanks for the advice. I have 2 supers as well, and leave the bottom super for them to feast on during the winter. When they start filling up the top super, I gank however many frames are full and replace them with empty. I got 6 batches of honey last year this way. If they have space, they'll keep loadin' it with honey!
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Aug 7, 2009 00:47
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Do you guys have any 'tricks' to make the bees draw comb on the super? Mine's been there a whole month, and still no progress whatsoever. I really want to put a frame of bees in there, that really helped draw out the second brood box. The problem is that the frames are too big for the super.
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Aug 10, 2009 00:41
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Maximusi posted:Do you guys have any 'tricks' to make the bees draw comb on the super? Mine's been there a whole month, and still no progress whatsoever. I really want to put a frame of bees in there, that really helped draw out the second brood box. The problem is that the frames are too big for the super. All the progress that they made on my super, they did in the span of about two weeks. After that it slowed way down. I don't know of anything special you can do to make them like the super more; it just sort of happened for me.
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Aug 10, 2009 05:40
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My bees are gone! Yay! Guy came out Saturday afternoon. He had spent the morning at another client's house where the complaint was "hollow tree has bees." That was an understatement. The buzzing could be heard from the street. He was stung about 5 times. So when he gets to my house, he said "that's it? uh, how much do you want to pay me in cash, because this is not worth the $300 the company would charge." Just like a couple of you said, he smoked them, cut the comb off (and some of the vine they had used for structural integrity I guess), put them in a box and was on his way. About 20 minutes. So these bees are going to a happy new hive somewhere and they are out of my yard. I do feel bad, however, for the 5 or 6 bees that came home to find that they had no home. Poor little guys are still hanging out where the hive was. I'm thinking I need to scrub the fence to get whatever smell off of it.
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Aug 10, 2009 17:56
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topenga posted:My bees are gone! Yay! They'll be dead in a few days; I wouldn't worry about it. You could have scrubbed the whole affair in bleach and cleansing fire and the bees would have remembered exactly where their home was, and come back there. Moving a hive in the daytime is always going to lose a few bees, because some of them will be out, you know, being bees. I've read that bees will remember where their hive is to such an extent that, if you were to move it even just to the other side of your yard, they wouldn't be able to find it. They'd just sit there and buzz at the former site and get extremely confused. They say if you want to move a hive for a short distance, it's better to follow this procedure: 1) come in at night, when they're all inside, and block the entrance 2) move the hive to somewhere completely outside their range, so they get disoriented and can't find their way back to the old location 3) leave the hive in the new location for a couple weeks, until the memory of the old location is completely gone 4) come in at night and block the entrance again 5) move the hive back to the place you wanted it originally Yeah, it takes a couple weeks to safely move a beehive across the yard. I thought it was fascinating when I read about that. Congrats on a bee-free backyard. I'm still enjoying the comforting buzz and delicious smell of having my hive back there. I love my bees. 
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Aug 10, 2009 18:08
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SaltPhoenix pulled 10 frames of honey last night, we pulled from the bottom super because we REALLY liked the springtime honey. Our bees were acting very very protective and SaltPhoenix was stung 5 times while trying to clear the frames off. I guess shorts/tshirt are a bad idea for the honey harvest--she added gloves after the 3rd sting. She said that the bees that stung her weren't even like the "angry bees" I come across buzzing your ears and hair, they went straight for the sting. I was near the hive but a couple feet away, watching our daughter. I got to participate more with shaking bees off the frames last harvest, I believe my daughter was asleep. Without any veil or gloves and the bees getting extra protective at this point in the season, I didn't mind sitting it out. After we brought the frames inside, I got my first sting of the season, probably from a bee caught in my clothes. This harvest looks like 30lbs, which is what a shallow super should hold. To hold the brushed off honey frames, we used an extra shallow super with a towel wrapped around it to prevent bees from getting back into them. It worked much better than a plastic bin. We forgot the foundationless frame in the other super and want to pull that one out soon. After clearing 10 frames off while the bees are more protective, we are considering a bee escape board to mostly clear the bees out of the super before we go out to harvest. You put the board underneath the super(s) you are going to harvest and give them 2-24 hours to clear out. Deluxe bee escape board: https://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=31_56&products_id=482 Basic escape to be installed on an inner cover: https://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=31_56&products_id=480
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Aug 10, 2009 18:37
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Maximusi posted:Do you guys have any 'tricks' to make the bees draw comb on the super? Mine's been there a whole month, and still no progress whatsoever. I really want to put a frame of bees in there, that really helped draw out the second brood box. The problem is that the frames are too big for the super. Are you using a queen excluder?
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Aug 10, 2009 18:59
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Yeah, I've read a lot of arguments whether or not it's a honey excluder so I don't know what to think.
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Aug 10, 2009 21:06
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Maximusi posted:Yeah, I've read a lot of arguments whether or not it's a honey excluder so I don't know what to think. I'm glad you've already had a chance to see the debate on those... The queen excluder is the first thing I thought of when you described how the bees are reluctant to start drawing comb in the super, but I don't have personal experience with excluders. I've never seen any brood in the supers and we do not use a queen excluder.
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Aug 10, 2009 22:02
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Hell, I guess I'll try it. It can't hurt.
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Aug 10, 2009 22:18
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I've got queen excluders on both my hives, but it really does seem to be keeping the bees from branching out. The bottom two supers are just crammed with bees, but there's only a dozen or so enterprising workers at any one time crawling around in the top super. 
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Aug 11, 2009 16:42
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Simkin posted:I've got queen excluders on both my hives, but it really does seem to be keeping the bees from branching out. The bottom two supers are just crammed with bees, but there's only a dozen or so enterprising workers at any one time crawling around in the top super. Wow... It would take some serious queen problems before I would try one of those, I haven't really heard much positive about those queen excluders. I might even replace the queen on a hive before using an excluder if I did have problems with where she lays eggs.
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Aug 11, 2009 17:29
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adept posted:Wow... It would take some serious queen problems before I would try one of those, I haven't really heard much positive about those queen excluders. I might even replace the queen on a hive before using an excluder if I did have problems with where she lays eggs. I had the same problem when I tried my queen excluder for about a week last year. It just made it so the whole hive was crammed down in the bottom 2 boxes and they'd hardly venture into the super at all. My bees haven't had a problem putting honey in the supers and keeping brood below in the mediums. I'd try taking the excluder out and seeing how they do in a couple of weeks.
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Aug 11, 2009 17:34
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I'm using an excluder and they don't seem to mind it. It took them a day or two to get used to it, but they made honey just fine. This is the first I've really heard about excluders causing problems. Are my bees freaks? Am I a freak?
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Aug 11, 2009 17:43
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walrusman posted:I'm using an excluder and they don't seem to mind it. It took them a day or two to get used to it, but they made honey just fine. This is the first I've really heard about excluders causing problems. There is definitely some debate on this subject so it does come down to what works for you. Some beekeepers will tell you that queen excluders work fine, but you get less honey, and then some other beekeepers might overhear that and come stab them in the face for assaulting their beliefs but if you ask me those aren't very nice beekeepers and you should probably run away. My approach is to not use an excluder until it becomes apparent that I need one. Since it's really easy to tell brood from honey, and I've never seen brood in the supers, it appears I don't need one so far. EDIT: Last year before we got a hive, I had looked at a couple websites and made an assumption that you HAVE to use a queen excluder. I wasn't corrected until my wife took a class where the professor went into her own preferences. adept fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Aug 11, 2009 |
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Aug 11, 2009 18:23
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