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Eason the Fifth
Apr 9, 2020
Any recent books you recommend? I'm leaning into non-fiction lately mostly because of the declarative style (Empire of Pain was especially good in this regard, and read like a real-life version of the Godfather on account of the facts alone), but I'm down always for any new well-written novels.

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Brainworm
Mar 23, 2007

...one of these--
As he hath spices of them all, not all,
For I dare so far free him--made him fear'd...
Nap Ghost

Eason the Fifth posted:

Any recent books you recommend? I'm leaning into non-fiction lately mostly because of the declarative style (Empire of Pain was especially good in this regard, and read like a real-life version of the Godfather on account of the facts alone), but I'm down always for any new well-written novels.

I haven't landed much non-fiction, but I'm just running into a Contemporary Fiction course this Spring. It focuses on Haunted House stories and I've read some good ones:

First, Carmen Marie Machado's Her Body and Other Parties is a good but uneven collection of short stories where one -- an almost-a-novella called "The Resident" -- really stands out. I can also dig on Silvia Moreno-Garcia's Mexican Gothic and Alma Katsu's The Deep. I want to say those are all out in the last two years.

I also really wanted to like Helen Oyeyemi's White is for Witching -- it falls into the "I know it's solid but I just can't get into it" bucket. It reads like a rough draft of something really good. Like the kind of book where the Netflix miniseries could be better than the read.

And I read Robert Marasco's Burnt Offerings, finally. I think the line on Offerings is that it's where Stephen King got his best ideas for The Shining. That holds up in the specific sense that Offerings is one good thing after another, but reading it after The Shining kinda spoilers things. King stuck so close to Marasco's story. I'm not going to say that King did it better but he sure as hell didn't do it any worse.

Apart from that: Station Eleven and Midnight Library are also both worthy reads. Not great but good -- what I'll call "well crafted" since each story hits its beats in ways that are both predictable and satisfying.

On the flipside, Station Eleven could be, like, a kind of sprawling, multi-perspective epic and a really good one, but feels like it pulls the eject seat at the first possible opportunity. Midnight Library almost overstays its welcome, and if what I'll call the second act had gone on any longer I might have put it down. But I didn't, so there you are.

Last: Joe Abercrombie just delivered his last book in the Age of Madness trilogy, which is the first thing I've liked from him since he finished First Law. If you liked Law, Madness is just as good; a lot of the same without feeling derivative.

Brainworm fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Jan 30, 2022

Fuschia tude
Dec 26, 2004

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2019

Brainworm posted:

I haven't landed much non-fiction, but I'm just running into a Contemporary Fiction course this Spring. It focuses on Haunted House stories and I've read some good ones:

Do you use the same method reading for fun as you do texts to prepare for a course? Speed reading, and reading it multiple times?

Brainworm
Mar 23, 2007

...one of these--
As he hath spices of them all, not all,
For I dare so far free him--made him fear'd...
Nap Ghost

Fuschia tude posted:

Do you use the same method reading for fun as you do texts to prepare for a course? Speed reading, and reading it multiple times?

I do not. When I get to split the difference (like I did with these books), I got a nice, leisurely read the first time through. Then when I'm preparing to teach (like I was last week) I'll blast through them a few times to remind myself where everything is. Especially for plotted novels, the repeat-skim method is kinda joyless.

There is one exception: I subscribe to Fantasy and Science Fiction and a handful of other short story markets. When I read those, I'll sometimes check the first paragraph of each story to see what's interesting. I almost never read each issue in its entirety. That's not a ding on the quality of a good short story market -- just that there's some amount of stuff that falls under "good, but not for me."

Eason the Fifth
Apr 9, 2020

Brainworm posted:

Great suggestions

Thank you! Looks like Burnt Offerings is next on my list. I forgot to mention in my earlier post, but "One Monday We Killed Them All" was a great recommendation. MacDonald's style in that book was a pleasure.

Brainworm
Mar 23, 2007

...one of these--
As he hath spices of them all, not all,
For I dare so far free him--made him fear'd...
Nap Ghost

Eason the Fifth posted:

Thank you! Looks like Burnt Offerings is next on my list. I forgot to mention in my earlier post, but "One Monday We Killed Them All" was a great recommendation. MacDonald's style in that book was a pleasure.

Yeah, that passage about the town dying just a little slower than the country around it was a joy. I would slog through a hundred pages of anything after a hit like that.

Happy Sisyphus
Nov 13, 2013

You take the blue paarp - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red paarp - you stay in pre-alpha, and I show you how deep the sperg wallet goes.

Any tips on how to get out of the literature phd racket if I no longer want to be a professor? Where (if you know) did your colleagues who didn't get tt jobs wind up?

Brainworm
Mar 23, 2007

...one of these--
As he hath spices of them all, not all,
For I dare so far free him--made him fear'd...
Nap Ghost

Happy Sisyphus posted:

Any tips on how to get out of the literature phd racket if I no longer want to be a professor? Where (if you know) did your colleagues who didn't get tt jobs wind up?

I think the first piece of advice is to avoid asking some version of the degree question: "What do I do with a PhD in English/Equine Studies/&c?"

It's a loser question for any PhD program that's really a five-year vo-tech program for the professoriate. That's most English PhD programs, which are basically teaching and research apprenticeships.

A better question is "what can I do with the specific skills and experiences I've picked up during graduate school?"

Just for instance, I ran the Writing Center and (later) the FY writing program when I was a graduate student. I did hiring and firing, process and project management, and worked with a real budget. A friend of mine -- I'll call him West -- had a similar set of responsibilities w/r/t a University Press.

That said, West is now an in-house librarian for a big law firm in Georgia. But both of West's former co-press-managers are senior editors (one at Scholastic and the other at Grove). Those careers were built on the fellowships they used to pay for graduate school, not on the degree program proper.

Another grad school acquaintance of mine manages a tourist cave (i.e. a cave that you pay admission to tour, camp, spelunk, and occasionally go missing in). Another is in stasis as a traveling adjunct with a pretty successful house painting business (this was the position he was in before he started graduate school). For them, graduate school was more like a standalone experience than a bid to enter academia.

More broadly -- outside my fellow travelers from graduate school -- the Big Deal is teaching at private boarding schools. We're talking about the heavy-hitters outside major metro areas, with international populations and endowments and students who drive Land Rovers or better. If you like teaching but don't like College Academia, those jobs are no joke. My kid sister (who's a ceramicist/sculptor) went on that market a couple years ago and got hired in at $93K plus a college house and all the boarding school dog chow her family can stand.

That's not a one-off. The offers I've seen in my division are in the 80s and 90s. Keep in mind: someone with a lower offer wouldn't show it to me. But they're out there, and common enough that even some of our hires who probably won't pass their two-year review can get them.

The second-biggest non-professor space is Academic Administration, especially at R1s. I'm not talking about Deanships as much as I am about director positions at Teaching and Learning Centers, Advising Centers, and so on. These are 9-5 jobs in the main, and the people I know who have them like them.

Most of those people have PhDs and at least some teaching experience. The local R1 just hired away a couple of our Associate Profs in Lang & Lit to run their off-campus study programs, which describes a pretty common career pathway.

IDK if that's helpful. If you're interested in boarding school jobs, I think my advice is to choose a region and sign on with an agency that serves it. That's where the bulk of the offers I see are coming from.

Happy Sisyphus
Nov 13, 2013

You take the blue paarp - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red paarp - you stay in pre-alpha, and I show you how deep the sperg wallet goes.


Thanks for the response and the advice. I've since made some headway--actively doing applications now because I'm hoping to bail on my program before next fall.

Eason the Fifth
Apr 9, 2020
Sorry to just drop a lengthy essay and ask for your opinion on it, but what do you think about the argument below? I'm almost a decade out of grad school and only have minimal experience with rhet/comp and writing studies, but I seem to remember a lot of these issues being present in the departments at the time, and I can't imagine they've gotten any better.


quote:

Pity Writing Studies, the Field That Hates Itself

In 2009 I found myself in my late 20s, broke, and trying to get a job in the teeth of the post-financial crisis employment depression. I had applied to hundreds of positions, entry-level and low-paying and low status, and yet couldn’t get hired to save my life. I was living in my sister’s house and driving an old beat-down Jeep Wrangler I couldn’t afford to gas up. I would take odd jobs on Craigslist, scraping paint off of houses or working product demos at the convention center where liquor store owners were sold on alcohol that turns your tongue blue. My early-to-mid 20s girlfriend and I had gone through an endless series of falling apart and getting back together again, and it was finally over. I was hungry for any kind of job that could bring in, perhaps, $30,000 a year, which would have changed my life. Couldn’t get one. It seemed that a BA in English and Philosophy from an uncompetitive state university and a resume filled with lifeguarding and dog-walking wasn’t going to cut it. So I went to grad school.

Reading and writing were then, as now, my only hobbies, the only thing I liked doing, the only thing I was ever good at. My friends joked that it had always been inevitable, my going back to school. And I am an academic, even today, though I will never again hold a position at a university. I had resisted, I think, in part because going to grad school was so expected of me, which is a custom common to the young, fighting doing something just because others assume that you’ll do it. In any event, the only job offer I had received would pay little more than I would make as a grad student and involved only soul-crushing clerical work with no opportunity for advancement. So when the University of Rhode Island gave me an offer of admission to their MA in Writing Studies, I said yes. I mean… why wouldn't I?

I borrowed someone’s van and loaded an old twin bed, an Ikea desk, and my giant CRT monitor into it, strapped my hound dog into the passenger seat, and drove an hour and a half east to the shittiest apartment I have ever lived in. The first day I walked around the campus in Kingston it felt like heaven. I found a building off the quad that looked like something from Harry Potter and an office in the biology building with a stuffed tiger inside. I also saw, after the first weekend, endless empty Natty Light 30-rack boxes sitting by the trash. I asked someone “isn’t this a dry campus?” and she said “it’s a little damp.”

Anyway, the writing department was in Roosevelt hall, the type of moldering old liberal arts building I’ve known and loved my whole life. Writing studies also goes by another name, rhetoric & composition, and I think that’s more popular in-field. (I will use the two terms interchangeably here.) The “rhetoric” included invites a lot of derision, but then rhetoric is merely the study of persuasion, and it had been championed in an effort to develop a subject matter for the field and a methodology for teaching writing, first through reference to the ancient Greeks and later through an ever-expanding definition that drew in more and more things. I prefer the name writing studies because I like writing, but the distinction never mattered much to me. And, anyway, no matter which one I used, insults followed; people online who disliked something I wrote would always use my field to mock me, a shorthand for all of the arguments they were too dim to make. But I always thought that the value of writing and argument, and the need to study them, was self-evident.

You may find it weird that there would be writing-specific programs and departments in American colleges and universities. Isn’t that English’s job? Well, no, at least not according to a great many English professors. English profs are into the subject matter of their field, man - which is to say, Lacanian readings of the phallic imaginary, queering the Young Adult canon, and why the comma is a tool of white supremacy. Teaching college students to write papers has always been seen, by a large chunk of the world’s English professors, as a kind of academic scutwork best fobbed off on the academy’s hordes of contingent and powerless labor. In the late 20th century some tenure track professors disagreed, though. They were mostly at large state universities in the middle of the country, far from the prestige and power of elite academia. They cared about student writing, took it seriously, and wanted to receive professional credit for caring about it. But English faculty would not give it to them, fearing that rewarding writing pedagogy work would devalue their field. It was from here that rhetoric and composition was born. A small but growing movement of faculty worked to break writing away from the broader umbrella of English, whether in new departments or programs within English departments. They could evaluate each other’s scholarship for hiring and tenure decisions, form their own professional associations, and set curricula for writing programs, outside of the negative influence of English professors and their biases.

Janice Lauer of Purdue University was part of this early wave of scholars demanding professional respect for teaching writing. In my first year at the rhet/comp PhD program at Purdue, Janice (long since retired) came to campus and told us about how everything started. She said that when she was first starting out as a pre-tenure professor she was told not to even bother to put writing pedagogy articles into her tenure file; they would not be reviewed. So she and others across the university system simply invented their own field out of whole cloth. Janice was wise and kind, a former nun I believe, and sitting in that cramped conference room with my beloved cohort I knew we all felt lucky to be where we were.

The split between English and writing programs and departments, at some places, is very real. When I was finishing my MA at URI, I found myself in a truly awkward bind: both the English and Writing departments were demanding that I submit my graduation materials to them and not to the other. (I mean, literally, “don’t submit this form to the grad director over there.”) I explained to each of them that I was being put in an impossible position, but could not force them to put their heads together sufficiently to give me an out. I had received my offer to go to Purdue with a tuition waiver and stipend and needed to collect my degree; the situation seemed a little Kafkaesque. It took going to the dean of the graduate school, which made me feel like a snitch, to force them to allow me to graduate. That is the level of animosity that’s present at some schools.

This antipathy is not merely a function of dueling academic values. The root of the continuing animosity is the root of most animosity, money. Because while many English professors genuinely are disdainful of the value of freshman writing and similar classes, they’re not disdainful of the money such classes bring. The funding of departments and programs in universities is Byzantine and varies a great deal from place to place, but certainly to survive a department needs butts in seats. Big enrollment gen ed classes serve to fund the upper-level seminars where a dozen students or less have intimate discussions with professors, and I don’t see much to object to there. (Masters students, often, exist to fund the PhD students, which is far more problematic.) And so while English professors were disdaining writing classes, those classes were keeping the lights on in their offices. Newly-formed writing programs threatened that funding, and the ongoing decline of students taking American and British lit classes (which I lament with my soul) deepens the problem. So you see why it’s touchy.

But that was the origin story. What is writing studies/rhetoric & composition, really? You can get a good sense of what a field values by asking what graduate work it rewards. Who’s getting the awards at conferences? What dissertations are resulting in TT hires? Back when I was grad school for rhetoric & composition, it was, like, the rhetoric of Dr. Who, endless arguments that “playing video games is a form of writing,” papers about how white cishet people take up too much space in academia and need to step back written by white cishet people, tired screeds about how comic books are just as deep and real and also less racist and more cool and smarterer than the canon, dissertation-length case studies of three Appalachian women’s journaling habits that somehow could render sweeping generalizations about literacy, treatises on business writing that curiously had nothing to say about corporate practices and everything to say about Andrew Pickering’s theory of “the mangle,” lots of disdain for the concern of teaching students how to arrange sentences into paragraphs and paragraphs into papers, relentless insistence that any attempts to correct a student’s English is the hand of imperialism, “ethnographies of place” that entailed the author spending four total hours in the library and writing about whatever they fancied there, and sundry other topics that could function as parodies of useless academic writing.

You might wonder what unites all of these projects. The answer is nothing, nothing at all. One of the profound downsides of including rhetoric within the definition of the discipline is that rhetoric is so capacious a concept that it can encapsulate anything, and a field about anything is not a field. “Everything is rhetoric,” people would intone gravely in my classes. I quickly learned not to point out that a concept that includes everything means nothing; No one was listening. This had consequences not just for the research of grad students but for how they taught their classes. I cannot tell you how many of my peers teaching freshman writing had excised out almost all actual writing from their syllabuses, replacing it with stuff like web design and podcasts and, literally, playing board games in class. They loved that poo poo. And they were rewarded for it: the last thing you wanted to do was to go on a job interview with boring-rear end papers on your syllabus. I had multiple conversations at conferences where fellow grad students would brag about how few pages they required in their classes, often finding every loophole in their syllabus guidelines to replace writing papers with something cooler, something that seemed more fresh to the eyes of a faculty committee looking for a hip new member of their department.

It never seemed to occur to them that abandoning the specific purview of their classes was dangerous, that antagonistic forces were always looking for excuses to slash humanities funding, and that doing podcasts and web design in your writing classes looks less like innovation to college administrators and more like redundancy. They pay people with the appropriate degrees to teach audio editing and web design, and they will never see writing instructors teaching the same subjects as fiscally responsible, in part because writing instructors simply aren’t as good at those things.

But in the graduate programs there’s no one to gently remind students that other departments exist and are far better equipped to train people in these specialties than writing programs are. What I realized early on was that many people were essentially hiding out in rhet/comp, using the space’s almost comic spaciousness to study things that were better left to other departments. I’m not trying to be cruel, but it seemed like there were a lot of people who took to the field because they wanted to study things they couldn’t hack in their home departments. They couldn’t really do deep HTML, CSS, or JavaScript, so instead of going into programs for web design they wrote papers about the rhetoric of web design. They didn’t really know anything about micing up a studio, so instead of going into audio engineering they taught classes on podcasts-as-composition. They couldn’t do the calculus for aerospace engineering so they wrote about aerospace engineering as a discursive public. Absolutely nobody was enforcing any coherent sense of shared knowledge in the field, so you could do whatever you want, without any of the rigor demanded by other programs. If this sounds harsh, know that I myself ended up studying education policy, statistics, and research methods, so I was doing the same thing.

You can’t generate a shared commitment to creating knowledge when no one has any interest in a common set of academic concerns. I once saw a guy give a presentation about his dissertation research at a conference. He had been looking at the archives of dissertations from the field for the past several decades. Dissertations would be tagged with subject markers for indexing in databases - mine was tagged with terms like “writing assessment” and “standardized testing,” for example. What he had found was that the median number of tags that dissertations in the field shared with other dissertations was one. That is to say, at least half of the dissertations in his large dataset shared one or zero tags with any other dissertation in the database. It’s difficult to imagine this happening in almost any other field. Which academic disciplines are so varied that none of their graduate students are studying the same things?

No, there was nothing that you could say was definitively in the field, but there were things that you could definitively say were not, and that was everything that people from outside of the field would assume we cared about. That might include grammar, crafting sentences, formal elements of effective lab reports, writing effective transitions, how to research in the library more efficiently, how to write with style, how to develop a personal voice, genre conventions of writing for different majors, and more. As I’ve suggested, this stuff was considered passe, when it wasn’t actively being called racist/sexist/etc. I’m not just speaking offhand, here. Some in the field had been describing how it had changed, for the worse. Wendy Bishop lamented the demise of the writer-teacher and pedagogical focus of rhetoric & composition in 1999, Richard Haswell lamented “[National Council of Teachers of English]/[Conference on College Composition and Communication]’s Recent War on Scholarship,” meaning empirical research, in 2005, and in 2007 Susan Peck MacDonald lamented “the Erasure of Language,” that is, the focus on the actual text and language in student writing. Each of these pieces was regarded as stodgy and old-fashioned by some I knew in the field at the time, when they were engaged with at all. I wish I could share more recent articles of this type but, well, there is no one left to lament.

Here is an example of the kind of work that was done in the field that was most directly related to writing as traditionally conceived:



“Project(ing) Literacy: Writing to Assemble in a Postcomposition FYW Classroom,” Jacqueline Preston, College Composition and Communication, Vol. 67, No. 1, September 2015
(In fairness, there are also articles published in the same journal with titles like “Composition Is the Ethical Negotiation of Fantastical Selves” and “Student Affective Responses to Bringing ‘the Funk’ in the First-Year Writing Classroom,” so that’s cool.)

I remember sitting in a stuffy little office with my graduate advisor at URI, dear old Bob Schwegler, while we talked about my future as a professor. He got excited for me in a way that was infectious and made me put away my self-defensive distance for a little while. Bob did cool research; at the time he had been setting up young writers with eye-tracking technology to study how their eyes moved while composing, to see if any insight could be gleaned there. I was not particularly interested in using that sort of methodology itself, but in a broader sense this was the kind of research I wanted to do: empirical work on the writing process that could, perhaps, glean insights into how students wrote and in turn develop a better understanding of how to teach them. What I did not adequately reckon with then was that Bob was in his 60s, a full professor, and thus immune to the fads and prejudices of the field. I was not.

You’ve probably already guessed the turn here, given all this windup: what I found as a doctoral student, and should have grasped while getting my MA, was that writing studies had become just as disdainful of writing as English had been. The field had replicated the very conditions its founders had lamented. The tale I had been told of an academic field where writing was honored and respected was, by this point, a fantasy. Correspondingly, the empirical research I had discussed with my MA advisor was once common but had all but disappeared; when you’ve given up on the actual writing of students in favor of abstract theory, politics, and pop culture sermonizing, what was there left to study empirically? And anyway empirical study, particularly that which utilized quantitative methods, was constantly assailed as racist heteronormative patriarchy. Over a depressingly short timespan I signed up for a field that (I thought) centered student writing and studied it empirically and then found myself in one that had no interest in the subjects I cared about and which essentially forbade using the methods I wanted to use to study them.

This all came to a head in 2015, where at the field’s premier conference, the Conference on College Composition and Communication, a keynote address was given by Adam Banks, I believe then of the University of Kentucky. Banks’s address was a bald statement of everything I’ve been laying out here: to expect students to achieve mastery of writing as traditionally conceived - the ability to use written text as a means to communicate ideas and arguments in a variety of genres and modes - was terribly old fashioned. “The essay” was Banks’s particular target, and he saw it as an outmoded and limiting form that should be deprecated in favor of, well, all manner of wooly substitutes that were more likely to thrill the kind of people who still talked about wikis as a revolutionary new technology. This was the championing of “multimodal composition” that had dogged my every turn in grad school, the insistence that everything was writing but writing, that all forms of communication were valuable except for the form where you put words on a page. I found the speech, personally, to be bizarre in that it advocated denigrating writing itself as some bold new perspective, when that was the dominant view in the field already and had been for some time. But no matter: the speech was a hit. The crowd at the conference went wild. The field’s online spaces redoubled their dedication to dismissing writing as traditionally conceived as a bigoted anachronism. They wanted the world to know that their writing programs had no use for writing.

I couldn’t believe that all of these people with so many degrees failed to grasp the risk inherent to this attitude. I wanted to grab them all by the lapels and ask them: what do you think the neoliberal university is going to do, once you’ve convinced them that writing papers no longer has any value to students? Do you think they’re going to say “oh, well then, please continue to take our funding so you can dick around doing various other creative work that our graphic design, computer science, music, and various other departments already do better than you do”? This is why I say writing studies is the field that hates itself: its members never stop passionately advocating for the irrelevancy of what they are paid to study and teach. Their naivete and failure to understand the precarity of the modern university seem unfathomable. And yet Banks’s presentation was treated as a religious experience. The Council of Writing Program Administrators listserv, an email forum for people who run writing programs, lit up with celebration at this argument that their programs served no unique function. They were all agreed: it was time for the essay (and the essay was understood to encompass all of writing as traditionally defined) to die. Academics, as a species, are desperately afraid of appearing behind the times, and writing is 6500 years old.

A typical response to my fears has been to say, “I didn’t sign up to study how to teach students to write research papers.” To which I would say, that’s what the people who write your paychecks thought they were signing you up for.

As usual, my worries were not welcomed. It was stupid to voice them, of course, for purely self-interested reasons, but I never stopped hurtling off of the battlements in my graduate career. On that WPA listserv, people who had been tenured for 20 years and felt they had nothing to fear professionally sniffed condescendingly at my concerns, waving away my fears of defunding and casualization of the teaching workforce - “that would never happen here.” Like so many conversations with senior academics, their displeasure with my opinions was tinged with menace; I can’t tell you how many times I was told in my graduate education some version of, “I would never try to restrict what you have to say, but I worry for your career….” My grad school friends, almost all of whom were smart and sweet and perceptive, would mostly get quiet when I would talk about such things publicly, and I don’t blame them. One way or another it was clear that asking writing programs to care about writing was a professionally unhealthy thing to do.

Why? What happened? Why did a field that still dutifully trotted out its origin story as a place where student writing mattered have so little regard for student writing? I think, more than anything, that it’s a vestige of the culture of the American university. It’s long been lamented that our system places the value of research far and above the value of teaching. The more prestigious (and generally well-paying) a faculty position you can get, the less teaching you do; the more seniority you gain, the more teaching you can avoid, and the true academic stars barely teach at all. There are teaching colleges where pedagogy is prized, but they are universally understood to be lower status than research programs. It’s no wonder then that pedagogical research, in almost any discipline, is little valued.

More than that, though, writing studies is a product of the humanities of the past half-century. And the humanities have relentlessly advanced an ethos where research is only serious when it’s abstruse and complex. If just anyone could understand our papers, how could they be genuinely scholarly? And here again rhet/comp’s contested professional status was consequential. There was often a sense of inferiority based on writing classes being seen as “service” classes. (Lord knows we wouldn't want to perform a service for our universities, would we?) Because they had broken away from English, the discipline most dedicated to disappearing up its own rear end with incomprehensible jargon and abstraction piled on top of abstraction, I think scholars in rhet/comp felt pressure to prove that their work was deep too, that it too was sophisticated and complex, that theirs was serious scholarship. Writing articles about best practices for leading students through the research paper process would be a boon to the adjuncts and grad students who actually teach our college students how to write, but they don’t get you invited to conferences where someone will deliver a ponderous recitation of your accomplishments when introducing you. And the dictates of professionalization mandate that grad students looking for a tenure track job have a dissertation on a “hot” topic, rather than on a useful one.

All of this seemed straightforwardly dysfunctional to me, and I tried to push back where I could, but I lacked any institutional influence. Because I am a worrier, I worried. I worried, for one thing, that the schools were paying for our programs because they expected us to teach students how to write, and I knew how threatened the liberal arts are in the contemporary university. I worried that, though the field reflexively dismissed the complaints of other faculty that their students couldn’t write, lots of students plainly couldn’t, not in a way that they would need to in order to succeed in their majors and in the workplace. I worried because the burgeoning ethos of “the student can do no wrong,” now unavoidable in higher education, seemed to directly confuse what students needed and what they wanted. I worried because students were not asking for us to baby them in this way. (I would take grad classes in second language studies, some of them very generative and useful. But all of them would inevitably spend long hours agonizing over the “linguistic hegemony” of expecting second language writers to write like first language writers, insisting that we should honor linguistic diversity and never treat one as better than the other. And then I’d teach my freshman writing classes and my Chinese and Indian and Russian students would say, please, just fix my English so I can get my degree.) Most of all, though, I worried because I love the written word, I believed it could empower and enrich our students, and my own life was living proof that the ability to write could prove an invaluable professional ability.

All of that seemed ignored, dismissed. And it was hard to imagine a scenario in which such concerns would be taken seriously, even if only to be rebutted. Those without tenure lacked the influence the force the conversation and those with tenure seemed mostly to want to hide in their offices and be left alone.

By the time that incomprehensible piece about assemblages I excerpted above had been published, I had graduated from Purdue, but was still deeply concerned with the future of the school and its liberal arts programs, given that former Republican governor and presidential candidate Mitch Daniels had become the president of the university. In an almost impossibly corrupt process, he had been appointed president by a board of trustees that was made up of people he had appointed himself. He had swiftly begun remaking the college in his own image and eventually hired a dean of liberal arts, David Reingold, who was more or less unapologetic about the fact that he didn’t care for the liberal arts. Whenever pieces like that excerpted above would crop up, I would think to myself, “I can't wait to tell the state legislature or some neoliberal administrator that they shouldn't defund our programs and fire our faculty because writing is a Deleuze-Guattarian assemblage that operates within Burke's ambiguous dialectic.” I’m not naive enough to think that, had the field been more focused on brick-and-mortar issues of teaching writing as traditionally conceived, it would be immune to the vagaries of the 21st-century university. But it would have offered, at least, the possibility of a defense.

When I first got to grad school, I was amazed to discover that there were PhD students who showed up unaware of what tenure was or who didn’t know that publication was the coin of an academic career. But it occurred to me that I had been raised in an academic household and had learned such things through osmosis. What was much more widespread and troubling, though, was a total naivete about the political economy of the university in American life. I would be reading, every day, about how threatened our colleges and their faculty were, about the remorseless march of forces that wanted to replace all tenured faculty with adjuncts and online teaching. The threat was and remains large. And yet people in academia would blink stupidly when I would bring any of this up. All of their mental understanding of their position was derived from what they needed to do to succeed within the industry, and none of it with how to defend the industry itself. Against all sense and in defiance of reality, they thought their university walls were impregnable.

The question was and is, how to defend a field that had no sense of intellectual progress? At some point, when I was really in the throes of despair about it all, I started asking everyone I could think to ask: what do we know, as a field, that we didn’t know ten years ago? What new knowledge could we say with confidence that we had gained? I asked grad students and faculty, at my institution and at others, over beers and at conferences and via email. The only consistent and shared answer was, again, that society/the university/the humanities/the classics/writing are racist. This was the story everyone wanted to tell. But this wasn’t really new, at all - the dissertation topics from ten years prior were choked with white academics nervously borrowing from the history of racial oppression for the purposes of employability. And absent that, there was quite literally nothing that different people offered as new knowledge that was broadly agreed upon. Asking specifically about student writing or writing pedagogy induced shrugs. There was no sense, at all, about what all of us busily writing articles were actually learning. We demanded our research be taken seriously but I couldn’t tell you what it was progressing towards. Can you imagine a bunch of biologists being unable to name any consistent thing that their field had discovered in the past decade? The academic field of psychology is rife with problems, but I have no doubt its members can at least name new ideas and facts that the discipline has generated recently. It’s not just that my old field has no such shared new knowledge, it’s that I can’t imagine a scenario where such mutual understanding is ever generated.

Obscure research is one thing; a failure to support teaching is another. A truly toxic dynamic for our university system is that the conferences and journals and organizations are run by the tenured, but the tenured don’t teach low-level classes. In some writing programs at research universities tenured faculty don’t teach undergraduate writing at all. (I in fact know of several professors who had to go to great lengths within their institutions to be allowed to continue teaching basic or freshman writing.) Instead, freshman writing is dominantly taught by adjuncts and, at schools with graduate programs, grad students. Again, the actual brick-and-mortar work of teaching students how to write sentences, paragraphs, and papers is essential to the finances of programs that run writing classes but disdained by many of the faculty who are funded by such classes. But the work continues, and freshman writing is sometimes cited as the single most commonly-taught class in the American university system. The people who teach such classes are typically overworked and undertrained, and they could use better insights into the process. More than once at conferences I met adjunct instructors and professors at teaching colleges who ruefully pointed out that the large conference programs contained not a single presentation that would be of use to people looking to teach actual writing. But the tenured at research universities don’t teach those classes, and the contingent labor that does lacks the voice to induce change.

You might read all of this and assume that I think poorly of the people I studied under and went to school with, but that’s not at all the case. The faculty in my programs at URI and Purdue were almost universally bright, committed, and levelheaded, and most of my grad student peers were as well. I met many intelligent and thoughtful people from other schools. That’s part of what makes this all so frustrating; it became clear to me that most of the people in an academic discipline could be sensible while the collective hurled itself off of a cliff, thanks to the bad incentives and distorted cultures of academia generally and the field specifically. But getting people even to consider these issues - how the departments and programs that made up the field were threatened by refusing to think strategically as part of larger bureaucracies, and how disdaining writing in its traditional forms hurts our students, denying them a set of skills that could be immensely useful for their lives - seems impossible. The walls are too high.

In the last year of my PhD program, in 2015, I sold a book to Harvard University Press. (That I was unable to get a tenure track job with a PhD from a top program, academic journal articles, and a book contract with HUP tells you how badly I self-sabotaged during my graduate career, and my life.) The book was called Writing Itself. You can read the proposal here, if you’re interested. The book was to be a record of all of the frustrations I’ve laid out here, and more; the title was a reflection of what I thought really mattered, writing itself, words, text, print. And it was exactly that which my field, the field called writing studies, had given up on, had declared to be low status. I never wrote it. First, because I had gotten a meaningless and wasteful but comfortable administrative job at CUNY, and writing an academic book (for zero dollars, of course) would have no career value for me. Second, because I had come to accept that a combination of the field’s bizarre priorities, my politics, and my considerable personal instability meant that I would never get a job as a professor. Third, because I was hurtling towards a mental health crisis that eventually arrived. Fourth, and most importantly, because I knew it would not make a lick of difference in the discipline. They wouldn’t read it. No one in the field, no one, was advocating for writing, itself, and absolutely every incentive in academia cut against sticking your neck out and appearing old-fashioned in defense of what the students really needed most and what the colleges were actually paying us to teach.

I expressed some of my worries in a vignette for a special issue of College English, one that promised to look at assessment and its potential impacts on college writing programs, guest-edited by Maya Poe and Asao Inoue. I was, in fact, invited to write such a vignette, so I did. The piece was accepted - I received an email saying so directly - and then, mysteriously, removed from the special edition. You can read it here. What I said was true and, I am willing to say, necessary. I don’t know what happened behind the scenes. Inoue is one of a number of scholars in contemporary academia who has realized that he can essentially hold the fragile white professoriate hostage by threatening them with constant accusations of racism, which has vaulted him to the top of the field. Thus empowered, he has used his influence to agitate against anyone who has suggested what I was suggesting: that writing programs are not in fact wholly autonomous and independent, but rather exist within large institutions that are themselves often under the control of government apparatus, and those stakeholders have demands of writing programs that faculty can’t long ignore. And I argued, as I did in my dissertation, that if the field continues to stick its head in the sand about these forces it will only speed the demise of faculty control. Sadly, this argument always runs up against the one Inoue has laboriously expressed time and again: that writing assessment, as traditionally conceived, is racist.

Whether Inoue’s doing or not, the vignette was certainly spiked after acceptance because it said something the field simply does not want to hear: that the total abandonment of its core pedagogical function leaves it immensely vulnerable to the neoliberal takeover of the university, and the endless identity grievance-mongering that holds so much power within its culture will be powerless in the face of the Republican state governments that will inevitably come to defund its programs. The wolf is at the door.

This, indeed, is exactly what happened to rhetoric & composition at Purdue, long seen as one of the discipline’s most durable and influential homes. A year or two ago Daniels and his lackey dean began strategically “right-sizing” the liberal arts generally and English specifically. The rhet/comp graduate cohorts of ten to twelve were cut down, I believe, to one or two. The graduate courses were slashed. Professors got ready to leave. The program, I’m told, is essentially no longer a program. The faculty appear to have no idea what hit them, which is odd, because I spent four years in their department urging them to take the threat seriously. It was to no avail. I have spent 15 years as a writer saying things to no effect, giving out warnings that no one will heed. I am, after all, a 21st-century American Marxist. I know from intellectual impotence. And yet nowhere was I less heeded than in my academic field. I would go to conferences and beg people to see how vulnerable they were. I told them, I have been a child of the university my whole life, I have studied where higher ed is going for a decade, I understand who really holds power within our institutions, I grasp what state politics is like, I know of what I speak, please, work to defend yourselves. Tenure and “this is how we’ve always done it” will be no defense. They looked at me with bemused pity. And, indeed, should this piece somehow penetrate the collective consciousness of the field, it’ll get dismissed with the same reductive terms academics dismiss everything, sneered at on that WPA listserv full of tenured bigwigs whose work no one outside of their community would even bother to make fun of.

The last academic conference I ever went to was focused on assessment, from the standpoint of accreditation. It was, I think, my third and penultimate year at Brooklyn College. Philadelphia. The trip gave me an excuse to get away from campus and my beleaguered boss a break from me. I ran into someone there who had been a PhD student at the same time as I was, from another big program. Assessment conferences are grim affairs, ringed with the worst kind of academic technology vultures selling schools ludicrously expensive software they don’t need so that they can convince accrediting agencies to pass them in reviews that nobody fails. Like a lot of people there I was a failed academic in a dead-end job who was busily collecting bullshit data for no reason simply so that I could maintain health insurance. The woman who I had known as a grad student was now a freshman writing coordinator, a job with lots of work and zero prestige that’s often fobbed off on the pre-tenure. I told her that everything in academia seemed grim to me, that the writing had been on the wall for years and that what little money state colleges continued to receive would end up getting spent on absurd boondoggles like the pointless assessment software being sold nearby. It was all raw for me, as CUNY’s financial woes had a way of amplifying all of the American university system’s problems. But she was flying high and spoke only of all the possibilities laid out before her and her program. She had a lot of big ideas.

I gently asked her how she could be so confident; I had read that her state government was contemplating another round of major cuts. She crinkled her nose at me and said, “you know, our department’s a pretty big deal.”

Eason the Fifth fucked around with this message at 19:01 on May 16, 2022

Brainworm
Mar 23, 2007

...one of these--
As he hath spices of them all, not all,
For I dare so far free him--made him fear'd...
Nap Ghost

Eason the Fifth posted:

Sorry to just drop a lengthy essay and ask for your opinion on it, but what do you think about the argument below? I'm almost a decade out of grad school and only have minimal experience with rhet/comp and writing studies, but I seem to remember a lot of these issues being present in the departments at the time, and I can't imagine they've gotten any better.

So first: I like the argument, but I also don't know that I have the breadth of experience it takes to sanity check it.

That said, it rings true. Twenty years ago, Rhetoric and Composition was still seen as a dynamic and vigorous field. When I did my graduate work it was all about looking back on the then-recent Bartholomae/Elbow debates and looking at the evolution of Writing Centers. And then the whole field just seemed to fold up. It doesn't seem too off-base to claim that R&C repeated the mistakes of Eng. Lit. and so I don't know that I need a whole lot of evidence to be convinced, right?

I was also always puzzled that R/C fell under (or adjacent to) Lit programs or in academic Humanities divisions more generally. The more natural fit would have been as a track or specialization in Ed.D programs -- that's really where (a) there's theory of teaching and (b) there's some experience supervising quantitative (statistical) research among graduate students. And in practice, you'd see tight coordination between R/C in e.g. first-year Seminars and Ed.D informed retention and success strategies.

Anyway. Where are you thinking this piece would land? That changes your revision strategies a bit.

Eason the Fifth
Apr 9, 2020
Haha sorry, I didn't mean to imply it was mine. The author is Fredrik deBoer. I found that the essay was able to articulate things I'd felt back in grad school but hadn't given much thought to besides just, you know, feeling a generalized grad student resentment. Mostly I was looking to see if what I remembered/what the essay argued was a fair or unfair point from someone (you) who has insight and present experience into this corner of academia. Thanks for the reply!

Baron Porkface
Jan 22, 2007


What is the "point" of Snow White in terms of literary value or child development or pedagogy?

Earwicker
Jan 6, 2003

Brainworm posted:

On the flipside, Station Eleven could be, like, a kind of sprawling, multi-perspective epic and a really good one, but feels like it pulls the eject seat at the first possible opportunity.

i'm curious what you think of her latest novel, if you've read it. it's a sort of weird metafictional spinoff of Station Eleven that is partly about pandemics and time travel and takes place in multiple periods, but its also very clearly her processing the whole experience of being the author of a popular novel about a pandemic during a pandemic. it also includes some characters/elements from The Glass Hotel so in a way it is sort of evolving into a multi-perspective epic though in a very different way

The Zombie Guy
Oct 25, 2008

Not sure if this is up your alley or not, but here's the question:

Hypothetically, if you could travel back in time, but you were only fluent in modern English, how far back could you go and still be able to understand and communicate with people?

Brainworm
Mar 23, 2007

...one of these--
As he hath spices of them all, not all,
For I dare so far free him--made him fear'd...
Nap Ghost

The Zombie Guy posted:

Not sure if this is up your alley or not, but here's the question:

Hypothetically, if you could travel back in time, but you were only fluent in modern English, how far back could you go and still be able to understand and communicate with people?

Hypothetically, it depends on how much effort you want to put in.

The most recent linguistic change that would affect your answer is the Great Vowel Shift which, roughly speaking, separates Chaucer's (Middle) English from Shakespeare's (Modern) English.

The linguist who's spent the most time working out how Shakespeare's English was originally pronounced is David Crystal, and David's son Ben has made a career out of producing Shakespeare's plays in what both David and Ben call "Original Pronunciation" or "OP".

OP Shakespeare kinda sounds like Thom Yorke's been drinking cough syrup, or maybe like an Australian doing a bad Scottish accent. You can see a video of Ben Doing an OP "To Be or Not To Be" here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYiYd9RcK5M

So I think if you travelled back to Shakespeare's London, you'd probably have more trouble figuring out how to live without toilet paper than you'd have understanding what other people were saying. You're in about 1600, and on more-or-less the right side of the Great Vowel Shift.

Middle English -- or pre GVS English -- sounds pretty different. Here are the first few lines of the Canterbury Tales:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVG77xTPH6E

Understanding Middle English is a bigger ask. Chaucer wrote about 200 years before Shakespeare, and I think it's safe to say that English changed more in those two hundred years than it has in the five hundred since.

That said, Middle English is actually pretty easy to understand. Ezra Pound wrote that "anyone who is too lazy to master the comparatively small glossary necessary to understand Chaucer deserves to be shut out from the reading of good books for ever." Pound was also a fascist but on at least one point -- that a clever reader can learn Middle English in an afternoon -- he's basically right. So if you wanted to see Chaucer beat a friar (or see what went down between him and Cecily Chaumpaigne), you'd want to arrive on the scene at least a couple days ahead of time.

Great Vowel Shift aside, the next earlier version of English is Anglo-Saxon a.k.a. Old English a.k.a. English 1.0. It started in or around the 5th century and ran until 1066, when the Norman conquest mixed enough Old French (really Anglo-Norman) into Old English (a grab bag of Germanic dialects) to eventually render Middle English. Here's an example of Old English straight out of Beowulf:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH-_GwoO4xI

You're not getting that in an afternoon, or even a week.

So I think the answer to your question goes something like this:

1) Zero effort: You can go back to sometime between 1400 and 1600. It's English but it sounds funny.
2) A little effort: You can go back to sometime between 1066 and 1400 -- probably at the later end of that range, since the Norman conquest didn't just suddenly displace Old English. It's English grammar with a whole lot of new words and everything's gonna sound funny, but you'll catch on before you really, really need to poop.
3) Not a chance: 1066 and earlier. You're basically starting a language from scratch.

The Zombie Guy
Oct 25, 2008

Very informative, thank you for the answer!

Brainworm
Mar 23, 2007

...one of these--
As he hath spices of them all, not all,
For I dare so far free him--made him fear'd...
Nap Ghost

Baron Porkface posted:

What is the "point" of Snow White in terms of literary value or child development or pedagogy?

I don't know. I'm not being flip when I say that guessing the "point" of something like Snow White -- whichever text you're referring to -- means plumbing authorial intent. And when it comes to Snow White, which was at least one folktale before some version of it was set in print by the Brothers Grimm, it's nigh impossible to pin down the author(s), let alone what they might have wanted to accomplish.

But teaching Snow White is a different thing. I think I'd point to Snow White as an example of pre-Shakespearean storytelling and especially as a pre-Shakespearean character.

As far as I can tell, Snow White (the character) doesn't have any flaws (ways of thinking or acting that hurt herself or other people). Yes, she's gullible. Like, after some rando shows up with a magic bodice (that suffocates her) and a poisoned comb (that puts her in a coma), she's still credulous enough to take poisoned apples from strangers.

But I want to say that the moral vision of Snow White never calls this out as a fault. (Sort of like how the Harry Potter book never call out Harry for not braining Draco Malfoy on day one -- the moral vision is something like "use violence when it's unavoidable," not "use violence preemptively.") And so Snow White -- or at least the versions I know -- aren't character-driven stories in the sense that we'd expect from a Shakespearean or post-Shakespearean text. There's no moment of revelation where SW is like "wait a minute. I've got to set some boundaries," and then struggles to distance herself from a toxic ex.

You've also got to stretch to find SW's motivation. In a Shakespearean story (and in a lot of post-Shakespearean ones), characters want to be seen a certain way. That's what drives their actions from the beginning of their story to the end. You might make a case that Snow White wants to be seen as innocent, and I guess she is, but that's not really interesting. And it's not really there. From what I remember, SW doesn't have to strategize in order to appear innocent or beautiful. She just is.

I think for modern readers, SW's stepmother (the witch queen who'll kill to be the hottest babe in the kingdom) is a lot more interesting. She's got everything you'd want from a Shakespearean (or post-Shakespearean) character: a desire to be seen a certain way, and habits of thinking and acting that hurt herself or other people. That said, she's less interesting because there's no risk of her ever changing her behavior. You'd have to add that element in if you were going Gregory Maguire her (i.e. rewrite the story from her perspective -- assuming that GM hasn't already done it).

Brainworm
Mar 23, 2007

...one of these--
As he hath spices of them all, not all,
For I dare so far free him--made him fear'd...
Nap Ghost

Earwicker posted:

i'm curious what you think of her latest novel, if you've read it. it's a sort of weird metafictional spinoff of Station Eleven that is partly about pandemics and time travel and takes place in multiple periods, but its also very clearly her processing the whole experience of being the author of a popular novel about a pandemic during a pandemic. it also includes some characters/elements from The Glass Hotel so in a way it is sort of evolving into a multi-perspective epic though in a very different way

It's on my list but I keep putting it off, mostly because I'm afraid it's going to be an exercise in self-indulgence from a writer who can really do better.

Heath
Apr 30, 2008

🍂🎃🏞️💦
The witch seems like she's been elevated to a more prominent spot in pop culture in recent years -- I haven't seen them, but there are entire plays and I believe a TV show specifically to develop her, aren't there?

Brainworm
Mar 23, 2007

...one of these--
As he hath spices of them all, not all,
For I dare so far free him--made him fear'd...
Nap Ghost

Heath posted:

The witch seems like she's been elevated to a more prominent spot in pop culture in recent years -- I haven't seen them, but there are entire plays and I believe a TV show specifically to develop her, aren't there?

I was checking this out and found IMDb's page of Snow White movies. What a wild ride.

quote:

Grimm's Snow White (2012 Video)
PG-13 | 90 min | Adventure, Fantasy

When the King is killed by ferocious reptile beasts, his Queen takes control of the kingdom. She tries to kill her beautiful stepdaughter Snow, but she escapes into the enchanted forest.

quote:

Snow White: A Deadly Summer (2012)
PG-13 | 83 min | Horror

A troubled teenage girl finds herself in a web of lies and deceit when her stepmother attempts to murder her by sending her to a discipline camp.

quote:

Snow White and the Three Stooges (1961)
Approved | 107 min | Adventure, Comedy, Family

An ice-skating Snow White finds refuge from the Wicked Queen with the Three Stooges.

quote:

Snow White: The Fairest of Them All (2001 TV Movie)
TV-PG | 93 min | Adventure, Family, Fantasy

Snow White's mother dies during childbirth, leaving baby Snow and father John for dead on an icy field, who then receives a visit from one of Satan's representatives, granting him three wishes.

quote:

Schneeweißrosenrot (1991)
84 min | Documentary

About the identical twins Jutta Winkelmann and Gisela Getty, who belonged to the "harem" of the Commune 1 founder Rainer Langhans.

Stars: Jutta Winkelmann, Gisela Getty, Dennis Hopper, Werner Herzog

No surprises on that last one I guess.

Brainworm
Mar 23, 2007

...one of these--
As he hath spices of them all, not all,
For I dare so far free him--made him fear'd...
Nap Ghost
Also: I've just signed my employment letter and am now officially a Dean (along with being chair of our English department and the Honors Program). So if you're curious about what it's like to be an administrator in Higher Ed,. ask away.

The Zombie Guy
Oct 25, 2008

Brainworm posted:

Also: I've just signed my employment letter and am now officially a Dean (along with being chair of our English department and the Honors Program). So if you're curious about what it's like to be an administrator in Higher Ed,. ask away.

Do you worry about friends asking for favours, and trying to take advantage of your position?

Follow up; you seem like a cool and interesting Goon, so how would you feel about providing an awesome quote that I can put on the cover of the novel I'm writing?

hyper from Pixie Sticks
Sep 28, 2004

Brainworm posted:

Also: I've just signed my employment letter and am now officially a Dean
Congratulations!
Also, this is your life now:

Only registered members can see post attachments!

Brainworm
Mar 23, 2007

...one of these--
As he hath spices of them all, not all,
For I dare so far free him--made him fear'd...
Nap Ghost

The Zombie Guy posted:

Do you worry about friends asking for favours, and trying to take advantage of your position?

I don't worry about it. My friends know me better than that. It helps that one of my best friends -- the best man at my wedding back when -- is now the President of our Board of Trustees. We've been working around that for maybe ten years and know how to steer a conversation clear of hairy topics.

For my Faculty friends it's a little easier. The decisions I'm involved in are more structured and predictable. You can save yourself a lot of time by making rubrics for things like hiring, compensation, and so on, and then running them through your campus processes to make sure they're as equitable as the limitations of real life allow.

Like, people aren't always going to like your decisions or even agree with them, but a focus on consultation and process will help everyone respect them.

The Zombie Guy posted:

Follow up; you seem like a cool and interesting Goon, so how would you feel about providing an awesome quote that I can put on the cover of the novel I'm writing?

Glad to. Can (should) I read it first?

The Zombie Guy
Oct 25, 2008

Brainworm posted:


Glad to. Can (should) I read it first?

Yeah, I just have to write it first.

*glances at single scrap of paper with "Reboot + Sliders?" written on it*

It's coming along nicely.

Brainworm
Mar 23, 2007

...one of these--
As he hath spices of them all, not all,
For I dare so far free him--made him fear'd...
Nap Ghost

The Zombie Guy posted:

Yeah, I just have to write it first.

*glances at single scrap of paper with "Reboot + Sliders?" written on it*

It's coming along nicely.

I'm getting ready to start on one, too. IDK if anyone's interested in a writing accountability group (peer pressuring each other into making a weekly page count) but we might be able to make that work.

PurpleButterfly
Nov 5, 2012
Hi! I have read this thread all the way through and find the whole thing absolutely fascinating. I also have many unfinished novels (Nanowrimo veteran since 2004), and I find that idea intriguing.

dino.
Mar 28, 2010

Yip Yip, bitch.
Re: Snow White

I feel like the fairytales overall don’t tend to have a whole lot of well written characters. However, I wonder if that’s just because the written version of those stories is like a stripped down version versus what you’d have actually told your kids when those stories were circulating in the first place.

Hear me out. You know how if you get a recipe from Apicius or Form of Curry or something, the instructions are vague, and the measurements are rarely mentioned, because “everyone knows” that you add salt to the thing.

In the same way, could it be that the written stories were like a very “the five W’s of reporting” type frame works? I know that when I was a kid, the stories my dad or other older relatives would tell me to entertain me had way more fleshed out … everything versus what they looked like when I saw the written version. Mind you, I’d be reading the translations, because my Sanskrit reading is barely passable, and I speak none of it. Even the Tamil stories are almost impossible to read in the original, because the dialect they’re using is way way old. Maybe part of it is that you lose something in translation, but I suspect that the people telling those stories aloud really did add a fair bit of spice to it.

The Black Stones
May 7, 2007

I POSTED WHAT NOW!?
Just wanted to pop into the thread and say thanks. I came across a link a while back from another forum (can’t remember why) and saw your book “Shakespeare‘s Storytelling” being mentioned. I didn’t care for Shakespeare until I took a class on it in University and fell in love with the stories. I got my first job after finishing my education degree and will be teaching High School English and have to teach Shakespeare. I did it during a practicum but felt I could do better on trying to key into the students why the stories are so great and how they can see it in modern stories. The book has been instrumental at getting a better understanding at how to integrate that. I haven’t finished it (only on page 64 after two reading periods) but it’s already been a great help. It’s also just been a fascinating read from a personal perspective. Great job, I’m glad I picked it up.

Brainworm
Mar 23, 2007

...one of these--
As he hath spices of them all, not all,
For I dare so far free him--made him fear'd...
Nap Ghost

PurpleButterfly posted:

Hi! I have read this thread all the way through and find the whole thing absolutely fascinating. I also have many unfinished novels (Nanowrimo veteran since 2004), and I find that idea intriguing.

Those kinds of groups really do work. At least my experience is that they work. I think I've found that you've got about three months to get through a manuscript. After that, the enthusiasm fades and you (I) end up dropping the project.

Brainworm
Mar 23, 2007

...one of these--
As he hath spices of them all, not all,
For I dare so far free him--made him fear'd...
Nap Ghost

dino. posted:

Re: Snow White

I feel like the fairytales overall don’t tend to have a whole lot of well written characters. However, I wonder if that’s just because the written version of those stories is like a stripped down version versus what you’d have actually told your kids when those stories were circulating in the first place.

Hear me out. You know how if you get a recipe from Apicius or Form of Curry or something, the instructions are vague, and the measurements are rarely mentioned, because “everyone knows” that you add salt to the thing.

In the same way, could it be that the written stories were like a very “the five W’s of reporting” type frame works? I know that when I was a kid, the stories my dad or other older relatives would tell me to entertain me had way more fleshed out … everything versus what they looked like when I saw the written version. Mind you, I’d be reading the translations, because my Sanskrit reading is barely passable, and I speak none of it. Even the Tamil stories are almost impossible to read in the original, because the dialect they’re using is way way old. Maybe part of it is that you lose something in translation, but I suspect that the people telling those stories aloud really did add a fair bit of spice to it.

Could be. I think what counts as spice varies from time to time and form culture to culture. And it varies even now. Like, I have some close friends -- mainly professional computer touchers -- who look for technical world-building elements in a story. Like, what matters most in my friend Mark's fantasy reading is that the system of magic, whatever it is, is both consistent and described in a level of detail that makes an assessment of its consistency possible.

I think the point is that we're at a cultural moment -- one that's lasted maybe 400 years -- where we've been chiefly interested in stories where characters undergo some process of self-discovery and change. That said, journeys of self-discovery and change didn't just spontaneously appear in our storytelling 400 years ago. They just acquired a new kind of prominence. And some kinds of characters -- characters who are principally acted on by external forces, for instance -- stopped being as interesting as they once were. Our focus kinda changed. We focus on the character, while storytellers at earlier moments focus on the worlds in which those characters live.

But that's not an on and off kind of thing. My friend Mark is one of many readers who's at least as interested in worlds as he is in character. And so, yeah. There could have been a teller of Snow White who was intensely focused on that character's internal psychological journey -- same way that the story of Absalom is kinda like King David learning to take responsibility (i.e. David gives his army orders, but doesn't stick around to see them followed, and his son Absalom -- who is objectively a dipshit -- dies as a result).

Anyway. The ways that earlier storytellers would strip down a story aren't the way we would strip it down. We generally focus on what characters want and how they try to get it, and focus even further on the ways that the characters ways of thinking and acting keep them from getting what they want. Earlier storytellers strip a story down to different elements, e.g. "and that's why things are the way they are now," or "and that's why you don't take apples from old ladies."

Brainworm
Mar 23, 2007

...one of these--
As he hath spices of them all, not all,
For I dare so far free him--made him fear'd...
Nap Ghost

The Black Stones posted:

Just wanted to pop into the thread and say thanks. I came across a link a while back from another forum (can’t remember why) and saw your book “Shakespeare‘s Storytelling” being mentioned. I didn’t care for Shakespeare until I took a class on it in University and fell in love with the stories. I got my first job after finishing my education degree and will be teaching High School English and have to teach Shakespeare. I did it during a practicum but felt I could do better on trying to key into the students why the stories are so great and how they can see it in modern stories. The book has been instrumental at getting a better understanding at how to integrate that. I haven’t finished it (only on page 64 after two reading periods) but it’s already been a great help. It’s also just been a fascinating read from a personal perspective. Great job, I’m glad I picked it up.

Thanks! I'm glad it's working for you.

Just depending on how you want to use it, I've got assignments etc. that I can send your way.

The Black Stones
May 7, 2007

I POSTED WHAT NOW!?
Yeah. I’d be interested in checking it out at the very least. Do you have DM’s? I can send you my e-mail or something.

Abyss
Oct 29, 2011

Brainworm posted:

Those kinds of groups really do work. At least my experience is that they work. I think I've found that you've got about three months to get through a manuscript. After that, the enthusiasm fades and you (I) end up dropping the project.

I feel this. I did a ton of world building and have been pen pal'ing ideas with my Dad over the past year, but only have achieved one chapter worth anything.

On another note, did your recent book give you a good start for going up for Full Professor? I have 2 years until I'm able to go up for Full Librarian, and I'm just looking at how much I can realistically publish before then that's worth enough to my peers/external reviewers.

Brainworm
Mar 23, 2007

...one of these--
As he hath spices of them all, not all,
For I dare so far free him--made him fear'd...
Nap Ghost

The Black Stones posted:

Yeah. I’d be interested in checking it out at the very least. Do you have DM’s? I can send you my e-mail or something.

Yeah, I've got DMs. Go hog wild.

Brainworm
Mar 23, 2007

...one of these--
As he hath spices of them all, not all,
For I dare so far free him--made him fear'd...
Nap Ghost

Abyss posted:

On another note, did your recent book give you a good start for going up for Full Professor? I have 2 years until I'm able to go up for Full Librarian, and I'm just looking at how much I can realistically publish before then that's worth enough to my peers/external reviewers.

It sure didn't hurt. I already had two books out, and I'm at a teaching college rather than an R1, so FP should have been a layup either way.

If you're thinking timeline, having a book under contract is just about as good as having one in print, and it's much quicker. I spent about a year banging Storytelling around as a set of notes for an undergraduate Shakespeare class before I realized it would actually make a book. Once I was there, it only took about two weeks to get it under contract. I sent it to Palgrave, they said yes. Natch.

But it took nearly two years (Jan '19-Feb '21) to go from contract to publication. Granted, covid happened in the interim, but two years is about the standard. A university press is likely to take even longer. And even for articles, turnaround time from acceptance to publication can be like 18 months.

So if you've got two years, you're probably not going to see anything published before your portfolio is due unless you're unnaturally lucky. But you've got plenty of time to develop a book proposal and get it under contract, and plenty of time to get an article or two accepted. Definitely do not wait until your poo poo gets published before you go up for Full.

Abyss
Oct 29, 2011
Nice, congrats. Yea, I'm looking at mostly journal publications at this point. Thankfully, my graphic novel scholarship (shameless book link) is helping me out post-tenure more than my library scholarship, but since I argued for it in my tenure portfolio it's relevant to me now. Our guidelines are pretty specific, so as long as I can hit the number of publications I should be good to go. It's just convincing the rest of the Full Librarians/Archivists that I'm worthy enough for the promotion, which still feels like a popularity contest at this point.

On another note, as a Dean, do you prefer that faculty come directly to you for an issue or a proposal of a new idea, or would you rather have it filtered up through supervisors/assoc deans first?

Brainworm
Mar 23, 2007

...one of these--
As he hath spices of them all, not all,
For I dare so far free him--made him fear'd...
Nap Ghost

Abyss posted:

[...]Our guidelines are pretty specific, so as long as I can hit the number of publications I should be good to go. It's just convincing the rest of the Full Librarians/Archivists that I'm worthy enough for the promotion, which still feels like a popularity contest at this point.

It can definitely be that, although popularity usually comes across in the, like, degree of enthusiasm expressed in the promotion minute. If you're lucky enough to have concrete, specific criteria for promotion you're in a good place.

quote:

On another note, as a Dean, do you prefer that faculty come directly to you for an issue or a proposal of a new idea, or would you rather have it filtered up through supervisors/assoc deans first?

An open door policy can play merry hell with department politics. Your best rule as a boss in a multi-level system (as e.g. a dean or a division chair) is that anybody can come to you with an idea or an issue, as long as you're not the first person they come to about it.

First: issues and complaints need to follow a process. That usually means that a complainant's first stop is a department chair or HR. That's important because you want to separate some kinds of responsibility (e.g. payscale decisions) from random exposure to unverified (and potentially prejudicial) information. I don't want to hear that Alice has accused Bob of sexual harassment. I want to hear about those and similar issues only when some investigative process has reached its conclusion.

Second: A lot of people who work at Colleges are both smart and observant. Your Faculty are usually smart but blinkered. They'll have specific kinds of good ideas. Housekeeping, IT, Security, and Facilities, though -- they're the ones who are going to tell you how to turn your 22-seat lab into a 25, which offices the Physics department is just pretending to use, or that you should be renting your floral arrangements instead of buying them.

I can't stress this enough: Facilities attracts people who are often very, very good at optimization, process improvement, and thinking through problems. If you're not talking to them you'll miss a lot.

Anyway. You want to take ideas, but you don't want to be the first person someone takes an idea to. So if you're going to have an open door for ideas, ask people to come in pairs or teams. That way, everybody who has an idea has had it (a) sanity checked and (b) had to explain the idea to at least one other human being.

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The Black Stones
May 7, 2007

I POSTED WHAT NOW!?
Sent you a DM

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