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halesuhtem
Sep 16, 2008

Boy, it's kinda chilly today, huh..

Brainworm posted:

I'm not talking about the half-baked Ayn Rand flavored mysticism.

Since that's come up, if indirectly, I'd like to hear your thoughts on Ayn Rand. What do you think of her as a writer? Is there a general consensus about her? I always hear that she's terrible as a writer of fiction, but I've never heard any analysis by anyone other than people who hate her anyway.

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halesuhtem
Sep 16, 2008

Boy, it's kinda chilly today, huh..

Keshik posted:

Everyone says that a familiarity with the Bible is a vital component to anyone interested in Western literature if for no other reason than because of the dramatic influence that text has had on all literature produced in the past two millenia.

As an atheist, I can't read the Bible or any commentaries on the Biblical text without throwing my hands up in frustration. It's like reading every entry in the Star Trek wikipedia, except even less interesting. It all seems so stupid and pointless.

What do you recommend to anyone who hates the Bible but wants to gain a greater appreciation of literature?

Can you tolerate reading The Iliad? If so, then I would think you can get through the Old Testament, at the least.* Just treat it like a mythology, which is what it is (note that I'm not using "mythology" in any sense of truth or falsity, but as reference to a type of literature). Don't worry about what's true or false, or how many times it contradicts itself, or how it verifies its claims; think of it as giving a history of a people (not a literal one), along with proving a way in which to understand the events of life for a particular culture. A mythology presents a worldview, not just in the literal events described, but in the lessons it teaches and the character types and situations it displays; it may not match up with your own worldview on many or even most points, but that shouldn't necessarily make it uninteresting (I would think, on the contrary, that the differences make it more interesting; try playing the part of the investigator, trying to figure out why this or that story would be important and what circumstances might have made it so). And if you really just can't find it relevant because it doesn't match up with your worldview or provide your idea of excitement, you might have trouble reading a lot of classic literature. But if you move beyond that, both Testaments can be fascinating (I say this as a for-all-intents-and-purposes atheist).

*If you're one of the many who cannot get through The Iliad, then move along.

halesuhtem
Sep 16, 2008

Boy, it's kinda chilly today, huh..

Brainworm posted:

Tom Bombadil

What do you think of The Lord of the Rings in general? What kinds of errors, mistakes, or just poor choices do you see in it? What do you think it's staying power will be?

halesuhtem
Sep 16, 2008

Boy, it's kinda chilly today, huh..

Brainworm posted:

Every element of Enlightenment political thought you can name -- including the principles expressed in the American Constitution and Declaration of Independence -- is a footnote to Milton's writing for Cromwell's Protectorate. We're talking about freedom of the press, freedom of religious expression, the idea that rulers have an obligation to the ruled (and the corollary idea that the ruled have the right to dispose of rulers who don't live up to their obligations), and the idea that every individual inherently has free will and inalienable rights. All Milton.

Since this is something that, as you note, no one seems to know (I'd certainly never heard anything like it before you said it), could you talk a bit more about it? How does Milton fit into the history of political theory, exactly (besides 'in a big way')? How was he perceived at the time? Who influenced him, and who was directly influenced by him?

halesuhtem
Sep 16, 2008

Boy, it's kinda chilly today, huh..

Brainworm posted:

I think so, but I'm also not a writer.

I mean, throughout the thread I've harped on the idea that good writers are of necessity good readers, and that much good writing is actually good rewriting -- someone examining a situation or character from an earlier text, seeing what's good in it, what it's shortcomings seem to be, and making some kind of improvement. A literature major seems like excellent training for that process.

What I can't speak to is whether that training is more useful than other things you can or should be doing as an aspiring writer. Hemingway's advice, in paraphrase, was that an author should go out and live rather than stay inside and read; likewise, I think any creative writing professor would say that his or her creative writing classes are the best place for an aspiring writer.

How much stock to put in that, I don't know. I mistrust many creative writing programs -- at my worst moments, I think they're a categorically deceptive enterprise. But there's also no denying that many of the successful authors I most admire are products of creative writing programs, too. Stephen King, for instance. But that's chasing the rabbit down the hole.

If I could, I'd like to pursue that rabbit. I'm interested in writing novels in the future, but am not sure that I want to enter an actual creative writing program to prepare for it (though I'm currently in philosophy, which itself is probably not the best preparation, rather than literature). What are your thoughts and concerns about creative writing programs, especially if they may be "categorically deceptive?" Do you have any general thoughts on preparing to be a writer in addition to read, read, read and write, write, write?

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