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Leperflesh posted:That is a good post uwaeve, especially the general advice. I'm still in favor of realtors for most buyers (in particular, most first-time homebuyers, which is the large majority for this thread), but you've got good info for people who choose not to use one. I certainly don't regret going with a realtor to find our home. She took us to a bunch of houses that fit the criteria we were looking for, gave us tons of homework to make sure we were getting a good value on the house, and handled all of the legwork of getting it inspected, doing the offers and getting lawyers for the paperwork, and pointed us right to a great mortgage consultant (who ironically we already had recommendations for outside of her). She even guilted the owners into removing the asbestos in the basement so we wouldn't have to. I guess if you are super self-motivated and want to save a few thousand, then skip getting a realtor, but for someone like me that tried to read books on home buying and it was basically in one ear and out the other. All of the associated costs were rolled right into the final mortgage amount.
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Jan 29, 2013 00:45
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Let me know if I'm on the right path here. I have a tentative goal of paying off my mortgage by my 40th b-day. I have about 9.5 years to meet that goal. I'm trying to figure out roughly what I would need to pay extra per month to do this. Current balance: $132,166.56 Interest rate: 3.375% Amortization over 10 years: $155,905.86 (calculator wouldn't let me put in 9.5 years) So can I just divide that number by the number of months left (114) and get what I would need to spend per month on principal/interest to meet that deadline? That would be an average of $1367.59. Is that right? Halp I'm no good at math. If that number is accurate, and our current P/I payment is around $950/mo, I'd need to shovel around $400/mo extra at it to meet that goal? Doesn't seem likely and/or that money would be ultimately better spent going to retirement savings or something. I still would like to pay it off early, but looks less likely now.
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Jan 29, 2013 16:51
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Can't you just play with the calculator and change the "adding extra to your monthly payment" option until it's done on your schedule? But yes, that number looks right to me.
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Jan 29, 2013 17:11
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When looking at a house, if there's enough work needing doing such that we want to get a couple contractors to come look at it to give us a general time/money estimate, is that generally free? How tetchy do people get when asked to do such things for free? Does this change if we've put down an offer?
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Jan 29, 2013 17:17
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dreesemonkey posted:If that number is accurate, and our current P/I payment is around $950/mo, I'd need to shovel around $400/mo extra at it to meet that goal? Doesn't seem likely and/or that money would be ultimately better spent going to retirement savings or something. I still would like to pay it off early, but looks less likely now. My vote is with retirement savings, for two reasons: 1. Personal opinion of higher return on retirement savings. Though not guaranteed, my retirement savings (with various tax advantages) will probably beat my mortgage rate (with tax deductions). 2. Cap on annual retirement contribution. If I got rid of my mortgage early, I wouldn't be able to funnel all the money I saved into my retirement because of the limits on annual retirement contributions. Other savings and investment instruments have additional taxes on gains. So I think there's a good chance of coming out ahead by paying the mortgage on schedule, maxing out retirement, then putting any leftover into early mortgage payoff.
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Jan 29, 2013 17:22
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Rooster Brooster posted:Can't you just play with the calculator and change the "adding extra to your monthly payment" option until it's done on your schedule? But yes, that number looks right to me. Yea shortly after that I did what you posted and it looks like the ballpark figures were right. Engineer Lenk posted:My vote is with retirement savings, for two reasons: Well with the "general cost of life" and "things we'd like to do", maxing out Roths would be nice but also not in the cards. My wife and I do about 30-40% of the max in our roths year and it probably won't grow much more than that anytime soon with daycare costs, a small amount into a 529 for my son, etc. I was just curious today what it would take since I said paying off the mortgage before I was 40 would be a cool goal to have. If it were like $250/mo I think I'd commit to it but $400/mo extra is probably out of our reach without some serious lifestyle changes. We don't have any super concrete goals with any leftover money so we agreed on (percentages are totally made up, but roughly accurate maybe): ~60% General savings (to fund home renovations, etc in the short term), ~30% extra mortgage payments, ~10% travel/vacation stuff. e: You're right, I definitely think the Roths would out perform paying down the mortgage, I may look into some occasional lump-sum deposits into those as well as it will really benefit us in the long term. It probably won't be much more than a few hundred every year but every little bit helps. dreesemonkey fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Jan 29, 2013 |
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Jan 29, 2013 17:42
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You could probably hit over 3.4% by investing and therefore come out ahead, but if I was in your position, I would also consider your mindset. If you love having tangible financial goals, "pay off the house as a 40th birthday present," is quantifiable and could be motivating. Depending on how you spend, that quantifiable goal may help you decide you don't need to eat out three times a week and pop that money into the mortgage instead. Maybe if you really work at it, you could have it done by your 39th birthday, etc. I guess I'm suggesting the opposite of a debt snowball (a saving snowball?): pop out smaller goals to build momentum. I can't even begin to image how liberating the feeling of knowing your mortgage is gone and how motivating that could be to propel you into saving hard for retirement instead of looking at a spreadsheet and saying "yeah, when I'm 50, I'm really going to be out ahead."
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Jan 29, 2013 17:42
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reflex posted:You could probably hit over 3.4% by investing and therefore come out ahead, but if I was in your position, I would also consider your mindset. If you love having tangible financial goals, "pay off the house as a 40th birthday present," is quantifiable and could be motivating. Depending on how you spend, that quantifiable goal may help you decide you don't need to eat out three times a week and pop that money into the mortgage instead. Maybe if you really work at it, you could have it done by your 39th birthday, etc. Yea I'm a firm believer in mindset vs. pure numbers. You need to have the right attitude to succeed financially, and unless you're very disciplined making all your choices based purely on the numbers I think you'll have a hard time coming out ahead vs. "motivational momentum" progress when you have debt. I like having goals and I've done two major debt snowballs in the past, one for me personally, and then again when I got married. It's very rewarding. Life is just a lot different now than when I was single, or newly married. I'm now a homeowner and parent and both of those things are not only huge fixed costs, but lot's of additional related spending. I'm not making excuses, we could spend less (and are working to get there) but the amount of unallocated money is so much less that now all these things are becoming more and more long-term goals.
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Jan 29, 2013 17:57
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Another big benefit of putting money into retirement funds is they're protected assets. No one ever thinks bad things will happen to them, but if your kid or spouse gets cancer or something else terrible happens, your retirement funds are protected from creditors and bankruptcy.
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Jan 29, 2013 19:36
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dreesemonkey posted:Well with the "general cost of life" and "things we'd like to do", maxing out Roths would be nice but also not in the cards. My wife and I do about 30-40% of the max in our roths year and it probably won't grow much more than that anytime soon with daycare costs, a small amount into a 529 for my son, etc. I was just curious today what it would take since I said paying off the mortgage before I was 40 would be a cool goal to have. If it were like $250/mo I think I'd commit to it but $400/mo extra is probably out of our reach without some serious lifestyle changes. This is off-topic to the thread, but I'd put retirement before a 529 any day of the week. The oxygen mask scenario applies; get your own on before you help your kid.
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Jan 29, 2013 19:43
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In the preliminary stages of negotiating to buy a house with my best friend's fiancé. We're looking to buy a 3-plex. The three of us are going to live in the master unit, and keep the other two rented out. My job keeps me traveling 7 months out of the year, so I'm essentially buying a room in the master unit, while my friend and her fiancé are planning on making a home there. Her fiancé and I are each going to put in 10%, for a 20% down payment. This way, the rental income from the two rented units will cover the mortgage paying our rent, so our only expenses will be utilities and upgrades that we want complete. The fiancé is going to cosign with his father for the home, I won't be on the official paperwork. We just started to talk about the financials today: if we sell the house, his initial proposal gives me 10% of the final sale price, reflecting my payment of 10% of the original downpayment. But, if I'm not part of the picture, they can't afford the house, and we're each putting in the same amount of money up front, so I think I should ask for a larger percentage? I know that they're going to be doing most of the work on this property, but am I insane to ask for 20-25% of the final sale price?
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Jan 29, 2013 21:59
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Runoir posted:In the preliminary stages of negotiating to buy a house with my best friend's fiancé. If you insist upon this crazy idea, get it in writing and use a lawyer. There needs to be a buyout sellout option unless you want to be stuck with this forever. What happens if the other party defaults? How are you treating losses? You need a partnership agreement.
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Jan 29, 2013 22:16
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Man, that is crazy. There are so many ways that could go bad. Seems like the simplest way to set this up would be (1) you loan them the 10% to be paid back monthly with interest; and (2) you rent a room from them once they own the 3-plex. You still could get screwed, but the risk is more predictable and you won't be fighting with three other people over who needs to deal with which property management problem, or when and how to sell. How financially responsible are these three other people, do you even know?
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Jan 29, 2013 22:53
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Runoir posted:In the preliminary stages of negotiating to buy a house with my best friend's fiancé. 20-25% would be way too high in my opinion. Aside from getting 10% of the (potential) increased sales price, you're getting rent-free living for as long as you choose to stay there, which can be potentially quite valuable. It depends a bit on what the house costs (and therefore how much your 10% is), versus what type of rent you would be expecting to pay otherwise. For example, if you put down $20,000 on a $200,000 house, and saved yourself $300/month in rent versus what you would be paying living on your own, you would be coming away with $3600/year, or 7.2% of your investment/year, plus the return of your investment money when the place sells. However, there are so many wonderful, fabulous ways this could go wrong. Let's ignore the potential that they break up. What if you get a job/relationship/whatever and decide you want to move. What will happen then? Will they buy you out if they like the place so much and it's so profitable? What if they can't afford to buy you out at that time, or what if house prices have taken a turn for the worse at that time? What if you get terrible tenants that destroy one of the units, or something goes wrong with plumbing/electrical/roofing/appliances/etc. that you guys will have to pay for. Will you be pitching in 10% of the cash for that? You're taking on a fairly large commitment in property ownership, especially with a rental property, with numerous risks of it falling apart, for the chance to save rent money, and a possible increased sales price. It sounds risky as hell to me, but I guess you have to take a look at the numbers, and what your financial situation is to see how well you can tolerate such a potentially large risk.
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Jan 29, 2013 23:07
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Runoir posted:In the preliminary stages of negotiating to buy a house with my best friend's fiancé.
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Jan 30, 2013 03:04
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silvergoose posted:When looking at a house, if there's enough work needing doing such that we want to get a couple contractors to come look at it to give us a general time/money estimate, is that generally free? How tetchy do people get when asked to do such things for free?
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Jan 30, 2013 03:14
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To the person buying a home with the best friend's fiance. Don't. Reasons? 1) Fraud: As mentioned by another, you can't buy a home using a loan for the down payment. Down payment have to belong to buyer or be gift funds and that down payment will be traced back to the source. If they trace it to you, you'll be asked to sign a gift letter. That letter will be a legal document where you are claiming that that money wasnt a loan and was a gift. 2) poo poo deal: You are paying 50% of the down payment for only 10% of the potential profit? Is that monthly income from rent or from proceeds of sale? Either way, thats a poo poo deal. There is no promise of profit from sale and you have no end date on when you can access your money. 3) Loss of control: Break ups between friends and couples that bought homes together make up a big portion of my business. People make promises and don't put it in writing and when it gets ugly, they have to refinance out of the debt or sell the property. I've got a loan closing tomorrow where a non-married couple broke up and the ex is demanding 75% of the equity to quitclaim off the deed. Without your name on deed or loan, you have no say in the property. Hell, I have a close friend who made a deal very close to this with her ex husband. She put up 100k to help him buy a home. Their relationship fell apart, he's moved into a new home with a new wife, and he wont sell the home to give her back her money. So in support of the other brilliant goons, don't do it.
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Jan 30, 2013 04:45
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Runoir posted:In the preliminary stages of negotiating to buy a house with my best friend's fiancé. Just in case it hasn't sunken in from the posts above, this is a very bad idea. One of the worst I've ever read on these forums full of terrible ideas, excepting maybe the suburban kid who was going to go out in the woods with a twelve-pack of beer and a pointy stick and "survive in the wilderness." Taking up methamphetamine would probably be better for both your relationships with your friends and your long-term financial health.
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Jan 30, 2013 13:14
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Dik Hz posted:Call around and ask. My gut reaction is that most are going to charge for it because you're really asking for professional advice and not bids for a job. So, in order to determine if a house is even remotely possible to be right, we'd potentially have to spend a bit of money? I mean, sure, inspections cost money and such as well, but this is kind of early "can we even make this work for us" stuff. Like, finish basement, for example.
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Jan 30, 2013 14:16
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silvergoose posted:So, in order to determine if a house is even remotely possible to be right, we'd potentially have to spend a bit of money? I mean, sure, inspections cost money and such as well, but this is kind of early "can we even make this work for us" stuff. Like, finish basement, for example. Would you want someone whose time is worth nothing to give an opinion? You are getting expert advice on a house you don't even own yet. Expect to pay and bargain to roll the consulting fee into the cost of the work if you end up using the person to complete the job. The situation is likely different if you already own the house.
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Jan 30, 2013 15:27
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reflex posted:I can't even begin to image how liberating the feeling of knowing your mortgage is gone and how motivating that could be to propel you into saving hard for retirement instead of looking at a spreadsheet and saying "yeah, when I'm 50, I'm really going to be out ahead." dreesemonkey posted:Let me know if I'm on the right path here. I have a tentative goal of paying off my mortgage by my 40th b-day. BTW, 15y or 30y mortgage? I calculated all this based on a 15y because the numbers seemed to fit with what you said.
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Jan 30, 2013 19:32
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Fire Storm posted:Paying off your bills feels great. Knowing you don't have to pay $1000 a month for a mortgage is loving wonderful and so liberating. As much as I want to put the majority of my savings away for retirement I can't help but shake the feeling that owning a home outright is far more valuable. The monthly savings would be great but I'm far more concerned about the financial security it provides as a whole. I've known far too many people in my life who had everything but lost it all because they lost their jobs and the mortgage payment (along with other debts) ate away everything they had. What I like about the Roth IRA is that you can save for retirement and if a good deal on a house comes along I can take out the principal without consequence. I probably won't do this but at least the door is open if I were to get lucky.\ edit: Just for the record if your interest rate is low enough you can probably do better long term by mortgaging. Ex: Your home interest rate is 3% but since you earned 10% on the stock market (with money that could have bought your home, over the course of the mortgage) then you actually profited from the mortgage in the end. Peace of mind is just more important to mean than that 6-7% and what I will be doing when I'm too old to care about my portfolio. Sephiroth_IRA fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Jan 30, 2013 |
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Jan 30, 2013 19:47
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Orange_Lazarus posted:As much as I want to put the majority of my savings away for retirement I can't help but shake the feeling that owning a home outright is far more valuable. I'm not so sure it is. Your savings can pay for a roof over your head, or medical care, or a new winnebago. Your home takes care of the first item but the second two require paying interest on a home equity loan or a reverse mortgage.
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Jan 30, 2013 20:04
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silvergoose posted:So, in order to determine if a house is even remotely possible to be right, we'd potentially have to spend a bit of money? I mean, sure, inspections cost money and such as well, but this is kind of early "can we even make this work for us" stuff. Like, finish basement, for example. Knowledge isn't cheap.
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Jan 31, 2013 01:04
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Dik Hz posted:Look at it this way: You're incentivizing the contractor to lie to you if he only gets paid if you buy the house. Fair enough! Good to know.
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Jan 31, 2013 01:19
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sanchez posted:I'm not so sure it is. Your savings can pay for a roof over your head, or medical care, or a new winnebago. Your home takes care of the first item but the second two require paying interest on a home equity loan or a reverse mortgage. Confused, I know the mortgage interest deduction is a popular tax deduction but why is it required for me to get a car or medical care?
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Jan 31, 2013 01:46
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The point is, if you use all your money to pay off the mortgage early, you won't have put it in your retirement account where you could use it for late-life medical bills.
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Jan 31, 2013 02:13
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Yeah, I agree. Using the funds you would use to pay off a mortgage as investment funds means you're more likely to have a secure retirement if you can (which is very likely) beat your mortgage interest rate year after year. I'm just not that concerned about retirement; I guess I'm concerned about 65-79 but I just don't care about my life after 80. Every 80 year old I know is miserable, dying or dead, even the rich ones. I can't even guarantee I'll make it to 60, I've been lucky so far but I can be mowed down on the highway tomorrow if I chance across a bad driver on my way to work. Paying down a house means I can enjoy my life a little bit more now and worry less. It also means I don't have to work as hard to maintain my lifestyle; if my wife and I were to both lose our jobs we could get full time minimum wage jobs and still pay the bills/make our retirement contributions until we got better paying jobs. Knowing that brings me a lot of peace of mind. To each his own I guess. Sephiroth_IRA fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Jan 31, 2013 |
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Jan 31, 2013 03:04
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Orange_Lazarus posted:To each his own I guess. Pretty much. I don't think paying off a mortgage early is a bad idea, at all. How you feel about it counts for a lot. Of course, an 80-year-old now may be like a 95-year old when you get there, if life expectancies keep increasing :)
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Jan 31, 2013 03:35
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Orange_Lazarus posted:Confused, I know the mortgage interest deduction is a popular tax deduction but why is it required for me to get a car or medical care? Keep in mind that people overrate the mortgage deduction. All you "save" is your marginal rate against the interest you paid in a given year. You are still down financially, with the amount depending on your interest rate and amortization point. E: and I have no idea why the gently caress people started talking about health care and cars having to do with mortgages E2: added amortization, since mortgages are front loaded let it mellow fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Jan 31, 2013 |
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Jan 31, 2013 03:53
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jackyl posted:E: and I have no idea why the gently caress people started talking about health care and cars having to do with mortgages It was someone trying to say that paying off the mortgage only guarantees your shelter, whereas retirement savings are liquid once you reach retirement age and can provide other necessities (or luxuries if you rate health care as such). I'm torn on the risk aversion reasoning. Your retirement accounts are protected from bankruptcy, and your house isn't - there's a homestead exemption but it isn't guaranteed to cover the value of your home.
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Jan 31, 2013 04:36
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That's a good point but I guess it boils down to how debt averse each individual is respectively. My mottos are "gently caress Debt" and "Pay your taxes" so I have a hard time believing future bankruptcy is a risk for me. I suppose there's always a small risk though, my wife and I would have to lose our jobs, have significantly higher bills (from kids maybe?) and be completely unable to find work for a long period of time in order for it to happen.
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Jan 31, 2013 14:30
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jackyl posted:Keep in mind that people overrate the mortgage deduction. All you "save" is your marginal rate against the interest you paid in a given year. You are still down financially, with the amount depending on your interest rate and amortization point. Yeah, mortgage interest seems great, but when I looked at what I paid vs. the difference it made on my tax return, I'm getting back less than 10% of that money. As soon as my car is paid off, every extra penny I have will be going towards my mortgage. Thats not to say I'll be stopping my 401(k) and Roth IRA contributions, but I can definitely take what my car payment used to be and cut back on some other bullshit spending to put another $600-$800 towards my mortgage every month.
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Jan 31, 2013 16:36
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DJCobol posted:Yeah, mortgage interest seems great, but when I looked at what I paid vs. the difference it made on my tax return, I'm getting back less than 10% of that money. As soon as my car is paid off, every extra penny I have will be going towards my mortgage. Thats not to say I'll be stopping my 401(k) and Roth IRA contributions, but I can definitely take what my car payment used to be and cut back on some other bullshit spending to put another $600-$800 towards my mortgage every month. I understand that this is a personal decision, but if your mortgage is under 4% then its incredibly likely that putting that $600-800 a month towards an index fund or mix of funds will beat 4%, and later you could pay off your mortgage in one huge chunk if you so desire with the earnings.
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Jan 31, 2013 16:42
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Weinertron posted:I understand that this is a personal decision, but if your mortgage is under 4% then its incredibly likely that putting that $600-800 a month towards an index fund or mix of funds will beat 4%, and later you could pay off your mortgage in one huge chunk if you so desire with the earnings. I'm already putting more than that into a 401(k) and a Roth IRA. Being able to say "I own my house" and look at a personal balance sheet and see "$0.00" under liabilities is worth it to me.
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Jan 31, 2013 16:54
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I agree with that sentiment completely but just make sure the house itself is worth the investment. Does the home have equity or are you under-water? If so by how much? Is it your dream house? You should also evaluate how long you plan on living in the area. It makes sense to try and completely own a home outright if you plan on living in the area for a long time or until you retire but not if you have a job where you could possibly be forced to commute in a down market. Sephiroth_IRA fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Jan 31, 2013 |
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Jan 31, 2013 17:37
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Orange_Lazarus posted:I agree with that sentiment completely but just make sure the house itself is worth the investment. Does the home have equity or are you under-water? If so by how much? Is it your dream house? You should also evaluate how long you plan on living in the area. It makes sense to try and completely own a home outright if you plan on living in the area for a long time or until you retire but not if you have a job where you could possibly be forced to commute in a down market. Since I didn't put 20% down my plan is to get to 78% LTV as quick as possible to eliminate PMI payments, and then re-evaluate my house payoff strategy once I have that money freed up. That will take a few years anyways since FHA says I have PMI (MPI?) for at least 3 more years anyways. And a lot can change in those 3 years. Edit: Not currently underwater. Comps around me (my exact house in a cookie cutter subdivision, actually) are selling for right about what I paid, so by this point between my down payment, mortgage payments and the extra principle payments I have a few thousand in equity. Just not enough to hit 78% LTV and definitely not enough to consider refinancing to a lower APR or to a 15 year, since 15 year mortgages still require PMI where the FHA used to not require it, but they do not. That rule changed like a month before I bought my house and pissed me off. DJCobol fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Jan 31, 2013 |
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Jan 31, 2013 17:52
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edit: Thanks nm.
Sephiroth_IRA fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Jan 31, 2013 |
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Jan 31, 2013 17:58
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FHA calls it a Mortgage Insurance Premium (MIP), but it's the same thing as PMI. And as you know, they require you to pay it for five years or to 78% LTV, whichever comes second. Also there was an up-front premium at the time of purchase, which you can pay in cash or roll into the mortgage amount. The exact percentage depends on when you bought, because FHA has changed the balance between up-front and MIP more than once in the last five years. For illustrative purposes, here's my situation. I refinanced about $230k in November 2011, and my MIP is currently $218 a month. Currently my outstanding mortgage balance is $226,707.84, financed at 3.75%. My monthly payment is $1,512.63, which breaks down this month as follows: Next payment DUE ON 02/01/13: $1,512.63 Principal and interest: $1,073.02 Property insurance: $44.33 Mortgage insurance premium (MIP): $218.00 County tax: $160.09 Shortage: $17.19 The "shortage" is because my property tax went up a bit this year (it had dropped a lot in 2012 because the county assessed my house as having lost a bunch of value in Dec 2011), and my annual hazard insurance premium also rose a little (I think it was around $40 or something tiny like that) so my escrow account ran short. I'll be be paying an extra $17.19 for about six months to "catch up" and then that goes away. I originally paid ($240,800), so my LTV is 94%. I'll have my last credit card paid off by August or September of this year, and at that point I'll start paying an extra ~$400/mo against the principal. I need to do the math, but my aim is to hit 78% LTV in November 2016, which is the first month I'd be allowed to stop paying MIP (the five year clock resets when you refinance). And I guess it's also worth mentioning that before I bought, I was paying $1650 a month in rent to live in a 650 square foot "house" (more of a cottage). It was much closer to work, and in a nicer (well, wealthier anyway) neighborhood, but I still paid all my utilities (which were higher). When I fold in the cost of maintenance my house still costs me more than that, but not by a huge margin.
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Jan 31, 2013 18:25
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Leperflesh posted:they require you to pay it for five years or to 78% LTV, whichever comes second. Huh? I had my loan open for less than 5 years, and the very day I hit 78% LTV I sent a letter and got PMI/MIP dropped from my bill.
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Jan 31, 2013 21:03
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