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Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug

Leperflesh posted:

How old you are doesn't really matter because different people have different kinds of lives.

What matters a whole lot is how "settled" you are, what you want to do with your life, and how much that's likely to change. A person should not be buying a home if:
-They're single, but might get into a long-term committed relationship in the next 8-10 years
-They're in a job or career that might change in the next 8-10 years, and that change might require a move

That's too far out to worry, imo. Who cares if you marry a mail order bride 10 years from now and any Corporate job stability at the non-Executive level has been loving GONE for 15+ years anyway.

Goons, buy a house unless you enjoy lovely old appliances, chalky navajo white walls, stinky bathrooms and blood and poop stained carpets.

...and when you do buy a house and get a yard, prepare to start your eternal and futile battle against yellow nutsedge! You can drop millions of gallons of Spectracide, Sedgehammer, or even ROUNDUP or gasoline on this evil horrible weed and it will spring right back and say "gently caress you" every single summer. gently caress you, nutsedge.

Keyser_Soze fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Aug 11, 2014

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Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
Personally I've owned several houses and getting ready to buy another since i just sold mine (well in contract at least). There is no way to ever be sure your company or job will be around these days, no matter how good you think you are. 10+ years at the same company is nearly non-existent these days. So yes, have ample cash reserves and don't overbuy.

Also, in some respects it's easier to miss payments on your mortgage over a payment to some corporate owned apartment if one was to quickly become catastrophically broke.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug

Leperflesh posted:

Tenure at a specific employer averages around 4 or 4.5 years I think. But I was talking about a job/career, not necessarily a position at a specific company.

In my own line of work, if I lost my job tomorrow I'd have a new one within a couple months, because I live in an area where people with my experience and skills are in high demand. That gives me the security I need to commit to house payments for 8+ years. (I've also been continuously employed with my current employer for over 10 years, and many of my coworkers are at 15+, so it can happen, even at silicon valley technology companies.)

I realize things are hosed up and a lot of people don't have that kind of job security. I think a lot of people shouldn't buy houses, too. Each person has to assess their own level of risk, and there are no absolute certainties. But since you're a serial homeowner you obviously know how much risk is involved with buying a house and then having to sell it two years later... your transaction costs on top of all the other costs are likely to destroy whatever equity you gained during that period, leaving you with a net loss compared to renting.

This is BFC. Our job in this thread is to give people sound financial advice. Sure you can just risk it and buy anyway, and lots of people do, but that's not something I am ever going to advise someone to do. None of this YOLO go for it bullshit, just because it's worked out for you doesn't mean it doesn't explode in the faces of a million people every year.

I hear ya. I sold (just hit 17 days so it's probably a go) my recent house after 5 years......getting the boot soon so I'll have to move into either a six month rental or a month to month place and buy another place in Q4 or wait until March 2015. I use Pentagon Federal for my mortgage and their closing costs and fees are minimal and most are waived, great deals there. I will use them again for sure.

Another note for buyers: beware of slimy brokers using your offer (and your subsequent counteroffer after they come back to you) to play with their on the side cash buyer they had waiting the entire time - just happened to me on a sweet place in Arden Park - Sacramento, CA area. It really hosed my timing up getting out of my current place. This poo poo happens outside of SF/LA so beware (but obviously not at the same obnoxious levels.) I left the Bay Area to get away from this type of garbage. Meh.

Nutsedge is EVIL. Most of the hardcore poo poo that will actually kill that disgusting plant is banned in California, of course. I did carpet bomb it with several batches of Sedgehammer that I snagged off Ebay though - to little effect unfortunately. Anyway....it's the next owners problem now.

Keyser_Soze fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Aug 14, 2014

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
In my recent house shopping experiences I'm seeing a really dumb trend of people having bible verses or motivational crap painted in script on their walls. Not that I couldn't quickly paint over it by why not just have it painted on a board or something you could take with you?

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug

eddiewalker posted:

A lot of those are just stickers with a light adhesive. That's easier for you, as a buyer, to reverse than a nail hole.

If it's actually paint, they owned the house when they did it.

"I want to be able to paint walls without consulting a landlord" frequently comes up as a reason people want to buy a house, however silly that may be. Deal with it.

Well being that most agents tell you to hide all your family pictures, hide your guns and swords and copy of Mein Kampf and Nazi flags and other personal poo poo before you get pics taken I thought it was strange seeing walls with "OUR SWEET BABY JEEEBUS Ezekiel 23.17" on it. If they are mostly just "stickers" you can scrape off then why not do it before the listing pics?

Keyser_Soze fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Aug 22, 2014

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug

Leperflesh posted:

You know exactly why not.

The mere suggestion to the homeowners that any buyer might not be overjoyed to have a big visual reminder of JESUS is offensive to them. The idea non-christians might buy their house is abhorrent. We live in a CHRISTIAN NATION SIR!

You won't be surprised to know these places were all out east of Sacramento, CA in super conservative Placer County - Roseville aka "Corporate Megachurch every 3 blocks."

I'm still looking down in the Arden/Carmichael area of Sacramento though, but so far the only offer I put in on anything I got seriously trolled by a broker on a sweet nicely upgraded reasonably priced house. It really smelled like he took my already over list offer, sat on it, then came back with a higher counter, which I matched, and then an hour later comes back and says "sold to cash buyer" who he probably had on the side the entire time. This was way more bullshit than I expected for Sacramento but apparently it's too close to the Bay Area or something.

I can't wait to waste money and time on a house again.......especially since I'm about to move into an apt for 90 days that has my favorite flat white walls, plastic counters and circa 1992 appliances. I hope there is radon too.

Keyser_Soze fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Aug 23, 2014

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
I kept a spreadsheet of every Home Depot/Lowe's/Misc Hardware store/Sears/etc receipt over several years on my last house and it was jaw dropping how fast you can pile up over $5k worth of stuff for your house.

I am now in contract for a house that hasn't had barely anything updated since it was built in 1980 so I'm prepared to get my rear end handed to me very quickly by it. I'll start with having the ceiling scraped (popcorn), some painting and getting new windows installed. Next would be floors/tile....kitchen rehab maybe (depending on options/estimates). Bathrooms will have to stay as is until late next year.

In the meantime I'll stay in an apartment for a few months and get things plotted out.

Apt living positive: giant dumpsters to dump poo poo you don't want into anytime that wouldn't fit into your residential cans.

Apt living negative: more loud little kids constantly screaming or smashing poo poo 5 feet from your windows than the avg Brazilian favela. They're quick little fuckers too so hard to catch and reprimand.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug

Leperflesh posted:

If it was built in 1980 there's very little chance it has asbestos. It was banned for use in building materials in the late 70s so it would have been an illegal use.

e. I'm reading that it was banned for use in acoustic ceilings in 1979, but that some homebuilders might have still been using old stock in 1980. Since testing is cheap, it can't hurt to get it tested.

Had the inspections today and met them at the property, the inspector (who was a builder in the area until retiring a few years ago) suggested there is basically a 0% chance that this 1980 built tract in Roseville, CA had asbestos in the popcorn.

There were definitely some venting/ducting/insulation issues in the attic to take care of, some wonky poo poo going on in the garage, and the water pressure meter in the front needs to be reworked (sprinklers in the rear have way too much pressure) but mostly just minor items. I will probably ask the seller to address the one code violation which was a re-using an old lovely gas line on the brand new water heater as well as the lack of a drip line for it.

The place seems pretty solid core-wise and even stuff like the cabinets and pocket doors still work.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
Touchpads die and sometimes aren't easily swappable. My last place had the 2005 era GE appliances and the stove/micro both shat out and the replacement panel ($300) for the stove was not 100% compatible and only made some of the buttons work. Meh! Samsung appliances have been great for me so far although I'm pretty sure the fridge is 1 inch too high for the new house's cabinets.

Keyser_Soze fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Sep 18, 2014

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
I've always liked (and you get some discounts) to "bundle" all my insurance policies together, Car/Homeowners/Renters even WineStorage. I've used Mercury for a long time.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
I sold my 2 story 2005 built house back in August and am moving into a 1 story 1980 built house next month. I have no problem with stairs and liked being up high and being able to see for miles out of the windows and watch sunsets and weather come in, as well as see who just pulled up into my driveway. Ultimately, climate control was a major pita and the upstairs was always too warm and the downstairs always too cool even with split thermostats, double paned windows, whole house fan, etc. Having tile floors on cement slabs downstairs was especially cold in the winter, even in mild California. Obviously, with enough money thrown at the problem it could be remediated with floor heating, better insulation upstairs but I was done putting money into the place.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
Check out refinancing with Pentagon Federal. Their rates own. You will have to do more paperwork from your side, since they most likely don't have local offices near you, but it's still well worth it.

I'll be going back to them for a 5 year arm in 6 months for my "new" place.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
We get charged 5% here in California for commissions. I did have a good experience with my last sales agent and used her to buy the next place. I do feel she did get pushed around by a broker that played us along* on a place I really wanted, but overall felt I was served well.

*went to see place right before an open house, met the owner......wrote up an offer and the broker sat on it and said "oh, I'm having the open house then waiting 3 days to present any offers to the owner" then came back with a counter, that I quickly matched, then came back and said "OH SORRY sold to cash buyer!" which I assume the broker was stringing along the entire time.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug

Mahoning posted:

You can file a complaint against that broker. Agents are required to present all offers as soon as possible and they don't get to decide on their own (if that is indeed what happened) when to present the offer.

You file a complaint with the state division of real estate. If that fails, file an ethics complaint with the local board of Realtors. Doesn't cost you anything.

Oh, it definitely happened he said as much in his phone call to my agent (about waiting to present offers to the owner after the weekend, etc) and I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't even bother presenting my counter - as he just wanted to make sure the sellers would take the cash deal. It ended up closing only 2 weeks faster than mine would have been too, so whatever. My initial offer was also over asking price and my counter ended up being $10k over what it ended up selling for. If the owners were only interested in cash offers, why even bother countering my initial offer?

My agent wrote the little twerp a nasty email, not sure I care about filing a complaint but perhaps I will.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug

PleasusChrist posted:

Well the beginning part of that (getting your offer and then telling you they were waiting to present) is loving ridiculous, but the other part makes sense. A lot of buyers will take a lesser cash value because they know financing can fall through. Also, were you asking for an inspection period? Maybe the cash buyer wasn't. Most buyers will take the cash offer because there is such a lower possibility of the deal falling through. If you spend a few days negotiating before you get in contract, and then you have a 10-day inspection period, and something goes wrong with it, well now they're two weeks behind and have to put the house back on the market and start over.

I know it sucks. I've actually been in that situation multiple times in the last few months as I'm trying to find a fixer upper to live in. I'm doing Conventional/20% down, but investors are walking in a paying cash, and I just can't compete with that.

The owner's counter wanted 10 day inspection instead of 17, which I agreed to. Again, why bother giving me a counter at all if the "owner" was only interested in cash offers. Regardless, I'm in another place now that needed a shitload more work...meh.

oh goodie it looks (and smells) like 1980 in here!



go away, ugly half walls and posts

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
Luckily no, but the garage walls are done entirely in pegboard and are hiding various electrical shenanigans I'm sure since one of the previous owners had some sort of workshop rigged up in there back in the early 90's.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
too late, hipsters have found it

http://blog.estately.com/2012/08/you-cant-fight-this-feeling-anymore-wood-paneling-is-back-and-completely-awesome/

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
...sorry bro....that really sucks and sounds like one of the worst Mike Holmes shows.

The plumber I found kicked rear end for only $325 (other guy wanted $950) and put in a new pressure regulator for the irrigation, a shutoff valve, a faucet aka "hose bibb" and some sweet new copper. The previous owner only had some crusty old regulator on the house while the irrigation was getting 85+ lbs and was getting blasted apart. Derp.




Don't steal my copper, goons. :tfrxmas:

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
I've also had good experiences with just cruising Yelp for contractors.

Inspectors aren't going to pitch anything they just inspect for their fee and tell it like it is usually.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
was that place used in the filming of "True Detective?" :stonk:

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
My 2005 built house had awesome electrical/plumbing/layout but horrible, cheap infrastructure (patched together OSB second story floors, weird spots were some drunk worker drove 10 nails in a bunch on one floor, rusting nails all over the place, bad fit on the framing using messed up looking 2x4s, missing insulation in parts of the attic that couldn't be seen, failing stucco requiring full warranty repairs). I saw a lot of the internal stuff just pulling up the carpets to replace with wood floors as well as when I renovated the showers. Exterior wise, the stucco looked horrible and was cracking everywhere, although it would be covered by warranty (but your house gets hammered on for 6 weeks during the remediation.)

My current 1980 built house obviously has dated parts and a bad layout but really solid well put together framing. It was a bitch knocking down the kitchen soffits.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
I think most agents do their comps and also assume that the selling agent has already talked the seller down to a normal price level and that from there, 3-5% below asking is the "normal" offer range on a normal demand property. Of course you are free to offer whatever you want but usually it will just get shot down as a "lowball" if it's way out of range of comps, etc.

This also depends on where you live, I know in my area (Sacramento, CA) that since it's "only" 90 miles from SF - some sellers out here expect a super-commuting FacebookTwitGoog new money millionaire to run out and buy their house for cash since it's so cheap comparatively speaking.

Keyser_Soze fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Nov 11, 2014

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
looks like they've been trying to sell it on and off since 2011. I bet the entire structure is wonky and note the sprayfoam in the corner of the bathroom (photo 7) so it's probably leaking everywhere.

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/214-Mill-Branch-Rd_Tallahassee_FL_32312_M68382-05412?source=web

It might make more sense to just scrape the lot and build something else on it since the neighboring places are very nice.

Sometimes an "as is" disclaimer can just mean the owner doesn't want to/can't afford fix anything. The house I just bought had a "owner will do no repairs" but I still had them repair some small code issues as part of the sale.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
that sounds like a lot of fees, did you try PenFed?

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
Having to replace all your outlets with those dumb tamper resistant versions sucks. :freep:

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
I had that same problem, my last house sold in 2 days back in August way before I could find another so I had to move into a short term apartment and put most of my stuff in storage. Closed on a house on Sept 30 but it's still not ready to move into yet as it was a smelly 1980 mess that needed tons of updates and every contractor was a pita to actually get to show up and the minute they know you don't live there they start slacking and missing deadlines or not showing up to finish on the day they said they would, etc etc and the poo poo just gets dragged on and on.

Jan 3rd is new move in date though!

buy just so you can enjoy non-pasty white apt walls, formica counters and crappy appliances (bonus for loud kids everywhere screaming and smashing stuff although honestly that happened at my last suburban house too, I was surrounded by 8+ small kids in the 4 houses around me)

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
Spent the last 3+ months getting this 1980 built place in Roseville, CA (Sacramento - NCAL) area updated. Smaller 1750sq foot place but in a very good area. Not much had been touched since 1980 inside and it needed everything from ceilings/floors/full kitchen/full bathrooms/windows/electrical/plumbing/. HVAC was mid-90's and replaced as well and all the registers were re-located. Took down a huge non-supporting wall and some other shenanigans for the master bath (not done yet). Budget got absolutely demolished and I still haven't even started on the exterior yet. Meh....at least it doesn't smell like dust and pee like it used to! I'm still moving in so it's not quite dialed in yet, new shutters are on the way along with crown molding. Cabinets are Waypoint shaker style in off white and counters are quartz HanStone serenity.



go away dumb half walls and post things and stinky carpets......




the wall between these rooms was knocked down and also a cutout section was framed in.



go away ugly kitchen, soffits, floors


also added lots of cabs/pantry/small counter for laundry area where you walk in from garage.....


guest bathroom too......master will be similar. Travertine tile and darker shaker style cabinet, same counters as kitchen. Kohler Devonshire soaking tub, Moen fixtures. Toilet was new but I added a new soft close lid




and most importantly a place to store booze (besides wine fridge)



I had to replace every outlet in this place twice..........save yourself the headaches and just install the dumb tamper resistant outlets from the get go unless you want your place red flagged by the inspectors (post 2011 electrical board requirements).

I only did the initial demo and cleanup along with various trim/painting/cabinet work and wore the gently caress out of my checkbook/credit card for the rest! I did get $3500 back in PGE/city rebates for the HVAC/whole house fan/windows though. I was lucky enough to float a temp apt place and keep a lot of stuff in storage between selling my old house and while this place was getting rehabbed.



do always* buy

*never

Keyser_Soze fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Feb 3, 2015

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
Contractor costs are insane, there is a reason all the contractors are driving $65k trucks and living in $500k+ houses. The actual "contractor" will only be there to do the quote and to bug you for a check after it's done and then whine if you try to use a credit card.

Leperflesh posted:

The Caol Ila 12 is one of my favorite not-too-expensive single malts, good job there.

e. Oh man, AND you have Aberlour! My favorite speyside! You should really treat yourself to the Abu'nadh if you can, it's amazing.

Oh, I guess good job on the reno too

I'm more of a smoke/peat monster Laphroaig/Ardbeg fan but the Aberlour is good stuff as a change of pace. I need to get some more scotch dammit.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
gotta be some lazy p.o. just tossed it up there or left it up there after a roof job.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug

Fancy_Lad posted:

Mind posting a couple more pictures/detail of your kitchen overhead light? We have a similar ugly light and are looking for ideas on how to make it not look like horrible garbage any longer. :)

After demolishing the old cabinets and soffits, I left the old light box intact and after much drywall/ceiling/texture/paint work had 4 5-inch LED's placed in it and 2 4-inch LED's placed in over the largest counter. I re-used an existing 3 way line and installed a dimmer. I'll have some crown molding installed in the light box to finish it off shortly. The great thing with LED's is they have very low electrical draw and you can run a zillion of them off your existing runs, so I can expand to more lights when I need to/can afford to pretty easily.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
The 2005 built Pulte home I was in previously was built like crap and they used crappy subs that not only didn't bother insulating half of my attic (the part you could see from the tiny crawlspace) but also botched EVERY SINGLE stucco job for miles around. Pulte paid for my insulation and I was on the list to have the stucco re-done as well so hopefully the new owners took advantage of it.

My 1980 place, despite the popcorn ceilings and 1980's interior had a kick rear end substructure with very solid framing and minimal slab cracks.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug

Citizen Tayne posted:

The place I'm buying has creosote-treated tree trunks as posts in the basement, with branch stubs and knots and all. It's pretty cool.

WHAT'S A BASEMENT? I HATE YOU PEOPLE WITH BASEMENTS. I WANT A BASEMENT DAMMIT.

we had a sweeet basement in some old victorian we lived in for a while in Monterey when I was a kid. So nice. No basements in California anymore which really sucks. If I was some demented billionaire I'd build 10 stories down with all sorts of tunnels and crypts and poo poo.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug

Bob A Feet posted:

I live in Jacksonville, NC. It's a poo poo hole, but houses are cheap, and I'm probably going to be here for a while. So I'm buying a house. I'm looking at new builds here. Most older houses are going for ludicrous amounts (I'm assuming its people trying to make up what they payed for them 5-7 yrs ago) or are generally just lovely designs (like the one I'm renting), or both.

Most builders here are offering an incentive, usually 4500-6500 "use as you choose" incentive. The new build I'm looking at was reduced in price from 193k to 185k and the incentive was changed to "builder pays 4500 for closing if using preferred lender."

Does this more or less mean that the builder has an underlying deal with the lender to jimmy around with my rates in order to make back that money? I know that if a lender credits you the closing cost that they jack up the rate to finance it-- is this similar? I haven't gotten a rate quote yet (the lender is waiting til tomorrow), but I have pretty good credit (all scores 740+)-- I just don't want to be surprised.

For sure they are jacking up the rates AND making the closing costs higher than they should be. People are suckers for "one stop shopping." If you like the house you could always negotiate hard and bring in your own financing. Also, don't let them sucker you into upgrades on a new build. You can always rip out the crappy stuff and replace with quality upgrades to your choosing later.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
Is that in the U.S.A.?

Once an inspector gets near that place get ready to replace every outlet in your house with tamper resistant versions. :smith:

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
Half the attic (of course the half you couldn't see from the tiny access port) of my previous 2005 built 2 story home had no insulation either. It's like they rolled in enough to cover any area the inspectors could see and left. It was very confined up there and there was no way to even see it unless you crawled over past the furnace and ducting.

I only found out when I was having a whole house fan installed since that guy HAD to crawl over there to scope out the location for the fan. He yells down from the attic "DUDE, yer not gonna believe this but.........."



The sad part was after getting it taken care of (the builder covered it under warranty) my cooling bills didn't drop at all. :suicide:

Keyser_Soze fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Mar 9, 2015

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug

Spamtron7000 posted:

My mortgage got bought by WF too and that was a huge boon since our checking, savings, AMEX and brokerage accounts are all at WF. I love having everything visible in one spot and setting everything up to happen automatically. My first mortgage got bought by U.S. Bank and they were great to deal with too but it wasn't anywhere near as convenient. Change everything to WF if you have branches nearby. They're pretty cool.

I actually liked when a previous house loan got bought by Wells as well......especially since Wells had a "Bi-weekly" payment option that my Credit Union and everywhere else I've been through prior to and since have no idea how to handle. I like making weekly/bi-weekly car/home payments just to spread everything out.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug

Obsolete posted:

Does PenFed usually take a goddamn eternity to get back to you? I applied for a refinance on April 22. The auto email said they'd call within 48 hours. Well, 20 days later and I have heard jack poo poo from them. Calls don't go anywhere. Emails to them just get canned responses back with a message to contact my "advisor," who has changed every single time I've emailed.

These guys pulled my credit report and have done gently caress all for all I know. I would just go elsewhere but since I have no idea what's going on with my luck I'd find some other place then finally get a call from them with "hey we're all done pay us!"

PenFed comes pretty highly recommended in this forum. I guess the rates are really good but I have absolutely no idea what the hell is going on with my application. Is this how it always is?

Edit: I guess all it took was to be angry about it on the internet as they finally responded to me just now. 20 days later.

You need to call them and get transferred to their mortgage dept. I've never had those types of probs with them with a mortgage and auto loan, they are usually calling you.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
If I got multiple offers on my last house and I live >100 miles from San Francisco that means my house was priced too low right? :smith:

I talked the listing price up 5% too. :argh: Never again.

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug

No Butt Stuff posted:

submit multiple counter offers and let them know that they're all bidding against each other.

That occurred last summer I was just confirming the "never trust real-tors" mantra that should be repeated every page. I was actually okay with the sale price even though I probably could have squeezed out some more cash. Most of the similarly priced houses did not have the tile and trim work I had done in my place so it was nice to see it was at least appreciated.

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Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug
I would love a basement in my inland Norcal house for a wine cellar and to quietly hold captives of course.. They still can be found along the coast in the older places.

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