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Adar posted:Vernor Vinge is a co-definer of the genre and should be in the top five of any list. I disagree only slightly. He's probably the best or one of the best writers of space operas right now, but the genre was defined in the 30's and 40's and 50's and 60's, and Vinge was only just getting started then. I think his first published story was like the last thing John W. Campbell approved or something. I'd say that people like E.E. "Doc" Smith, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Campbell, etc. For a while it was probably primarily a television/film genre -- Star Trek and Star Wars are both space operas.
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Jun 13, 2009 03:06
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Good god, I hated the Honor Harrington books. I read all of them in a weekend. I couldn't stop. It was like I was injecting a mix of caffeine and industrial caulk directly into my cerebellum. The first two books are decent hornblower in space pastiche if you aren't too picky about "logic" or "physics" or "plots that make sense." After that Honor turns into a Mary Sue of such biblical proportions that I'm pretty sure it's only a matter of time before she beheads Space Jesus with her Space Katana while her Telepathic Space Cat arm-wrestles Lucifer with one paw while firing Space Cannons at the Space French with the others. I bought all of them on my kindle. I read them all. I hope God can forgive me, because I can't forgive myself. Now, if you'll forgive me, I have to go read Vernor Vinge for a while in penance, because his space operas are actually good. Maybe I'll go through all the Patrick O'Brian books as an extra purgative. I keep having people recommend the "His Majesty's Dragon" series to me as Hornblower with Dragons, but I'm so horribly burned by the Harrington books that I just can't bring myself to try them yet.
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Jun 11, 2010 18:32
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Let's pretend David Weber doesn't exist and talk about good authors instead, like Jack Vance or John Scalzi.
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Jun 12, 2010 18:25
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papa horny michael posted:I have the same problem with John Scalzi. Everyone seems to like his stuff, but jeeze, if I wanna read a rewrite of heinlein/haldeman junk, or the abominable Agent to the Stars. Agent to the Stars was his first unpublished book, they just threw it on the 'net for free once he became a "name." Scalzi's first and foremost a professional writer, and Old Man's War is just him writing a heinlein-style military space opera because he figured out military SF sells. What makes the series worthwhile is that he puts in a lot of subtle digs at Heinlein's worldview, rampant militarism, etc., throughout the series -- he's subverting the tropes, not just repeating them. His best book to date is "Android's Dream," which is more of a Douglas Adams + Vernor Vinge knockoff than a Heinlein knockoff. It's genuinely funny, fairly observant, and he gets free of Heinlein's shadow.
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Jun 14, 2010 04:33
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Miss-Bomarc posted:Meh, not really in the first one; there's one bit where someone attempts to peacefully contact an alien race and is instantly killed, and another bit where it turns out that an evil sentient fungus was slowly infiltrating the colony and then suddenly destroyed it from within--and the colonists could have kicked it out, but they were too lazy to bother, doesn't this maybe make you think of COMMIE SUBVERSION!?!?!?? !! @! Or something like that. Yeah, the only point where it comes across in the first one is where he has the nervous breakdown because he's literally stomping the poo poo out of a race of tiny, tiny people, a la Rampage, and he basically gets sick of being a monster. In the later books the central point is that the ultra-militaristic approach humanity's taking is inherently unsustainable. He's too good a writer to do it too obviously, because he's trying to sell books first, but the subversion of the tropes are there. If you read Scalzi's blog it's pretty clear that he's pretty drat left-wing. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Jun 14, 2010 |
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Jun 14, 2010 04:55
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evilbastard posted:I'd stop there. A friend loaned me all four books, and I found Zoe's Tale / The Last Colony to be repetitive and frankly a waste of time. If you want to tell the same story from two different perspectives, that's what having multiple protagonists in the same drat book is for. From his blog it was pretty clear that he wanted and had planned to stop with Last Colony but the publishers pushed him to write a fourth book. And yeah, I skipped Zoe's Tale also, for the same reasons -- "second viewpoint" novels always blow.
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Jun 16, 2010 00:23
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Speaking of "Nothing is more space opera," We've talked about The Stars My Destination, right?
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Jun 17, 2010 03:25
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Sombrerotron posted:Well maybe not Rama II, which was still pretty interesting I thought, but turning the series into a ham-fisted anthropological essay 'livened up' with episodes of underage sex and finally ending by saying God probably did it?? was just insulting. Bringing Jesus into a sci-fi space opera is, at least for me, the only thing that ruins a novel faster than having King Arthur and Lancelot wander in from stage left. Dan Simmon's Hyperion series had the same drat problem. All this great setup and mystery, then -- Space Jesus is the Answer to Everything! Space Jesus!
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Jul 30, 2010 14:02
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Slo-Tek posted:It is pretty much what interesting sci-fi authors do. Posit other ways of arranging society that might work. The important thing to recognize about Heinlein's fiction is that it was aimed at 12 year old boys. I don't mean that as an attack or slur --- Heinlein was a masterful writer -- but a lot of what he was trying to do, especially with MIAHM, Starship Troopers, SiaSL, etc., was to give 12 year old boys poo poo to think about and challenge their assumptions. Starship Troopers especially is meant to be more a fun thought experiment than a serious proposal.
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Dec 7, 2010 17:04
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Magnificent Quiver posted:Like the other guy said, this is wrong - but it's really, really wrong. Heinlein wrote stuff aimed at kids, but it's obviously so. Have Spacesuit Will Travel is a good example. The whole story is filled with whimsical life lessons and 50s stereotype family interaction. Starship Troopers was explicitly written under the contract for Scribner's, then rejected by Scribner's and published with Putnam. It was intended to be read by 12 year old boys, explicitly. Keep in mind that Heinlein had fairly unique ideas of what was suitable for kids. By the time he was writing stuff like Starship Troopers, he wasn't trying to write 50's fluff for kids; he was trying to write stuff that would push and expand the brains of 1950's/60's-era 12 year olds. Even once he broke the contract with Scribners and was writing independently, though, his later fiction still shows the framework and writing habits he developed writing the juveniles. MiaHM is a juvenile with the brakes off. SIASL is a juvenile going off the rails, and even his later horrors like Cat Who Walks Through Walls use that same space-opera Heinlein-juvie format as their core structure (and turn godawfully bad when they veer too far from that structure). I don't mean to fault Heinlein for that -- he was a great writer. I'm not trying to say that Heinlein was a writer of Little Golden Books or something, just that his work is fundamentally "from" the Action Books for Boys genre in the same way that, say, Alan Moore's work is fundamentally "from" the genre of superhero comics. Said another way, I think that when 12-year-old whoever picked up Cat right after Rocket Ship Galileo and spent the next three days holding their head and going "holy poo poo," that's pretty much the exact reaction Heinlein intended. He wanted his readers to question fundamental societal assumptions, and I think Heinlein thought his target audience was the right age to start doing that. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Dec 8, 2010 |
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Dec 8, 2010 16:45
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Sojourn posted:I don't think I saw it mentioned anywhere, so I feel I should toss out Voyage of the Star Wolf by David Gerrold as a recommendation. Look up Voyage of the Space Beagle by A.E. Van Vogt. It's sort of pre-Star Trek Star Trek (written in the 1950's) Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Dec 31, 2010 |
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Dec 31, 2010 16:52
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BaronSamhedi posted:
Possibly "Universe" by Heinlein. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphans_of_the_Sky
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Jan 29, 2011 14:50
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I'd say that if you're looking to get into space opera, read either Asimov's Foundation series, Alfred Bester's _The Stars my Destination_, or David Brin's _Uplift_ books. David Weber is a blight on the written word and to be avoided. Vinge is good though so if you don't like his stuff don't know what to say. My current problem with space opera is that Charles Stross ruined the genre for me: his Eschaton series is based on the idea that faster-than-light travel is also time travel, which is actually true according to relativity, and once I understood why that was, no sf with FTL travel in it was believable any more, because time travel is logically impossible (see: Larry Niven's essay "The theory and practice of time travel.") Any help on how to shift my mind to enjoy this stuff again?
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Oct 4, 2011 16:53
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Chairman Capone posted:Well, most space opera I know of doesn't literally have faster than light travel. It's all stuff like wormholes, or extra-dimensional travel, or stuff like the Alcubierre metric which aren't technically just a ship going faster than light, so it avoids the consequences of relativity. Yeah, I think the recent CERN bit is my best bet. The problem with "workarounds" like wormholes or an alcubierre drive is that they're still time travel from the point of view of a 3rd party observer.
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Oct 4, 2011 18:14
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Chairman Capone posted:But in a wormhole, you're not instantly teleporting from point A to point B instantly across light years, you're traveling a few meters through normal space. The two entry points of the wormhole are at a distance apart, but for objects traveling between them, there is nothing to differentiate it from just going back and forth through an area of normal space. If you create a wormhole and go from one side to another, you're not going to just starting jumping through time as well. Yeah, but even there, you've still got a time travel problem. Good explanation is here: http://www.theculture.org/rich/sharpblue/archives/000089.html (it's hard for me to explain myself because it turns out relativity is complicated). Basically, in the real world, you can pick at most two of special relativity, faster than light travel, and/or consistent causality. Special relativity being wrong is probably the easiest path for space opera to take, but otherwise it's a bit of a buzzkill. =( Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Oct 4, 2011 |
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Oct 4, 2011 20:20
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Idonie posted:Say more about why you love the original star wars movies, 'cause that'll make it easier to know which subset of space opera might appeal to you, or if what you like about them isn't actually related to them being space opera. A lot of the best space opera has been done in media other than pure text. Flash Gordon's a great example -- it was pretty much all comic books, with a couple movie adaptations.
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Oct 4, 2011 23:03
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Sexpansion posted:As for what I like about Star Wars, I'd say it's hard to pinpoint - obviously nostalgia is a big part of it - but I like the blending of fantasy and science fiction, I think, and the pulpiness of it. But apropos of what Hieronymous Alloy said, I'm not sure that pulpiness translates particularly well to literature. But whatever. Thanks to everyone for the recommendations! Another possibility, if you really like pulp, is the old John Carter of Mars books by Edgar Rice Burroughs (the same guy who came up with Tarzan). The first one is titled A Princess of Mars. How awesome a title is that? Technically they're "sword and planet" subgenre, though, not "space opera", as there aren't any spaceships. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Oct 5, 2011 |
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Oct 5, 2011 14:52
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Rockefeller posted:Sorry if I missed it, but does anyone know of some space operas set in our solar system? I can't get into made up space settings for some reason. Asimov's Lucky Starr was a fun silly read cause they were tootin around our planets. John C. Wright's Golden Age trilogy is, and it's space-opera-esque, though it has a LOT of libertarian-fanboy-wankery in it.
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Oct 6, 2011 16:59
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Bass Concert Hall posted:So I just read the first Honor Harrington novel and couldn't really stand it - even setting aside the annoying as gently caress right-wing caricatures in the book's political machinations, the characters are so flat and unlikable and Honor is such a Mary Sue sperg. Ugh. Peter F. Hamilton, Vernor Vinge, and Charles Stross are all fairly good. Peter F. Hamilton has some decent characters and decent plots and worldbuilding. Vinge has great pacing/tension and in his best work really nails the 'space opera" vibe in a way that most modern authors can't match -- sometimes he feels more like a Golden Age writer than a modern one. Charles Stross is great but writes a lot of different types of things. Singularity Sky and Iron Sunrise are great space opera.
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Dec 17, 2011 01:51
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ed balls balls man posted:Not for my region on both sites unfortunately. I guess I could use a VPN though. If you have kindle all you have to do is switch your Kindle region to (wherever) in your Manage My Kindle page, buy the book, then switch it back. It's trivial to evade amazon's region protection.
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Jan 17, 2012 21:41
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Neurosis posted:I have heard they disable your account if they catch you doing this. I haven't seen or read any warnings about that anywhere? Given how incredibly easy Amazon's made it to evade region restrictions, I suspect they don't really care -- they probably have to impose the region restrictions due to publisher's contracts, but I don't see why Amazon (as opposed to a publisher) would honestly care if you evaded them. The only way I could see Amazon getting upset would be if you were shifting between regions to avoid the markup on international orders. But if you're just buying books that aren't otherwise available, not sure what the problem would be.
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Jan 17, 2012 22:40
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NoNotTheMindProbe posted:Read Ian M. Banks The Use of Weapons a little while ago and I really don't understand the love it gets. The main characters have godlike powers and the main problem could cease to matter in the slightest if they just stopped caring and hosed off. The whole story seems like an absurd power fantasy. You're not completely alone in that -- I like Banks' works generally but I understand your criticism. The worst for me was Consider Phlebas -- it's basically a deconstruction of the Competent Man / James Bond style superprotagonist, and at the end, you find out everything everyone did in the book was pointless and everyone dies anyway. It was so frustrating and annoying that if I hadn't been reading on an e-reader I would've thrown the book at the wall. He's sortof like Stephen R. Donaldson for me -- he's a good writer but a little experimental, and some of his experiments I profoundly dislike.
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Mar 19, 2012 14:09
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notaspy posted:I've read through this threat to find a book or series I'm pretty sure doesn't exist. I'm wanting something with the following plot devices: I'd guess that your best bet would be the Old Man's War series by John Scalzi. Edit: nevermind, kids show up as major characters in the last book. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Apr 30, 2012 |
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Apr 30, 2012 15:42
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Chairman Capone posted:One thing I'll say about the Honor Harrington series (which I only bring up because notaspy mentioned not liking Ender's Game due to its right-wing slant) is that the enemy nation (People's Republic of Haven) is basically the combination of every right-wing caricature/talking point about the French Revolution, Soviet Union, welfare state, etc. I remember one book had the talking point that social welfare in Haven directly led to dictatorship and the citizens being enslaved. So if right-wing BS gets you down, keep in mind there's a lot of it there. DO NOT read the Honor Harrington series if you're bothered by transparent right-wing propaganda, painfully blatant Mary Sue protagonists, or horrible cliches. The primary villain is literally named "Rob S. Pierre,", because he's a Space Communist leader of the Space French. On the other hand, if you want a Space Admiral protagonist who can win Space Navy battles while fighting sword duels with her Space Katana and talking telepathically with her Magical Space Cat, it might be the series for you! They *are* plotted well and are definitely page turners, but there's a point where you can feel the brain cells dying with each page you turn but you just can't stop and oh it hurts. It still hurts.
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Apr 30, 2012 16:57
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fed_dude posted:I fully acknowledge and agree with most of the criticisms of the Honor Harrington books. But drat, I love reading them anyway. Scalzi's later books in the Old Man's War series deconstruct a lot of the right-wing presumptions. If you like Honor Harrington despite all the flaws I'd recommend the Doc Savage books, they're the pulpiest things imaginable. I got to about the fifth book where they're in a Lost Dinosaur Canyon and one of the protagonists bull-leaps a charging triceratops by grabbing the horns and flipping; at that point I was like "ok, that was awesome, but I'm done" but if you can tolerate Honor Harrington you'd probably be fine with that kind of thing.
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May 3, 2012 16:19
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Sjonkel posted:Sorry if this has been asked before, but I just finished reading all the Vorkosigan books by Lois McMaster Bujold. Can't remember chewing through a series faster before, so needless to say I really, really enjoyed them. Sci-fi/Space opera is pretty new to me, so can anyone recommend any books or series/authors that can match Bujold? Hard call, Bujold's a bit of an odd one -- not many female authors write space opera, so her books have a really interesting mix of features. The standard recommendations for "space opera" with relatively interesting worldbuilding and likeable characters are going to be Vernor Vinge's Fire Upon the Deep and Deepness in the Sky, and [Singularity Sky] and Iron Sunrise by Charles Stross. Also probably John Scalzi's Old Man's War series. After that might want to try the Uplift series by David Brin. Those are relatively modern, so they won't be as pulpy as earlier space opera like the Edgar Rice Burroughs / John Carter or the old Lensman series stuff, but they have a good mix of interesting worldbuilding and relatively complex characters. If you like Stross, read everything else he wrote, then maybe William Gibson. If you like Scalzi, read Heinlein, esp. Citizen of the Galaxy, Starship Troopers, and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, but beware of libertarian ranting. If you love libertarian ranting, read John C. Wright's The Golden Age. If you don't mind straying into fantasy, I'd recommend looking at Ursula K. Leguin's stuff.
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Jul 9, 2012 14:30
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Khaba posted:I found myself missing spaceships when I was reading the Commonwealth Saga. That doesn't mean that it needs to be entirely spaceship based, or actioney, but I do like them as a part of the universe and also as a setting. So I guess what I'm looking for is something set in the far future that features spaceships in some form or other. Any suggestions? Ian M. Banks or Vernor Vinge would be my suggestions. For Vinge look up A Fire Upon the Deep and Deepness in the Sky.
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Jul 26, 2012 15:20
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Khaba posted:Thanks for all the suggestions guys, I'll note down the ones I won't be reading right at this moment and get back to them. They all seem like worthy reading. That having been said, I think I may try one of the Vernor Vinge books suggested, as they look to scratch my current itch. Everyone asks that question, there's no good answer -- I thought about warning you but figured it wasn't worth it. Whatever order you feel like. I think I went order written.
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Jul 26, 2012 19:19
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Old Man's War is pretty awesome in a very classic-sf, heinleinesque sort of way. It starts a series which gradually deconstructs a lot of mil-sf preconceptions, too.
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Aug 27, 2012 16:37
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Incredulous Dylan posted:
You aren't alone in this, though in my case it was excitement at seeing the title on my assigned high-school reading and immense disappointment when I realized it wasn't what I'd been hoping.
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Sep 4, 2012 16:56
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Hedrigall posted:Alastair Reynolds could write a loving Thomas The Tank Engine novel and I'd buy it on release day to read it Don't think Mieville could write a Dr. Who episode. The Doctor isn't explicitly socialist. Don't get me wrong, Mieville's great, but i've never seen him write anything that wasn't explicitly Marxist in the same sense that Narnia is explicitly Christian.
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Feb 9, 2013 20:08
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Bhodi posted:This question comes up every 10 pages or so. If you want sailing ships in space with at least a passing nod to lightspeed delay, clear delineated sides and a splash of politics/navy life, set in a multi-book pulp series format, you've got: How bad/good/goodbad/badgood is Drake? If David Weber's Honor Harrington is a 1 and Patrick O'Brian is a 10, and if reading about "Rob S. Pierre" gave me a physical headache, should I read Drake? I liked Lost Fleet and Star Carrier for what they were, and I'm on my fifth re-read of the Aubrey/Maturin books right now, but the Honor Harrington books were like Halloween candy -- I read them at all at a rush and then got physically ill. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Sep 11, 2013 |
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Sep 11, 2013 16:41
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NotYella posted:Drake doesn't write characters that are anything but archetypes - this guy is the corrupt politician, this guy is the hardass NCO, etc - but he's really good at setting up battles/combat action scenes. Cool, thanks. I'll put him on my list for the next time I want space opera schlock.
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Sep 12, 2013 15:22
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Libluini posted:
The sad thing is that the first Honor Harrington novel isn't bad, and they're pretty much all fast-paced and dramatically written. They just get dramatically worse with each book in an accelerating curve but you keep reading because ACTION and DRAMA and before you know it she's literally killing master swordsmen with her SPACE KATANA despite only minimal training because she has a "killer instinct" and her magical telepathic space cat is giving her clues on how to defeat the SPACE FRENCH and oh god the pain. I read like the first twelve books in a weekend. I got a headache and almost threw up afterwards. It was the mental equivalent of eating one greasy potato chip, blacking out, and waking up three days later on a pile of discarded chip bags, coated in a fine sheen of salt, vomit, and powdered potato chip fragments.
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Sep 18, 2013 16:51
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tonberrytoby posted:I am thinking Hornblower clones are really their own subgenre. Even the original Hornblower had no flaws except for his crippling Pessimism. And because it was the worst part of the original all the copies take it up to 11. Must make sense to them? Somehow. I've only read a couple Hornblower books but for some reason it really, really bothered me that he was tone-deaf. Overall he's just not a very likeable character.
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Sep 18, 2013 18:42
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:How bad/good/goodbad/badgood is Drake? If David Weber's Honor Harrington is a 1 and Patrick O'Brian is a 10, and if reading about "Rob S. Pierre" gave me a physical headache, should I read Drake? I'm reading this series now and to answer my own question at about five books in I'd say it's "goodbad," i.e., good popcorn space pulp. Everything's a fun read, the characters have *just* enough complexity to make you forget how cardboard they are, the space battles have just enough detail and complexity to be fun reads if you don't think about them very hard. The only real problem is that half the space battles are "Lt. Leary flies around, then Sidekick Mundy waves her techno-wands and makes the opposing ship detonate itself. The end." It really is hilarious how transparently they're "Aubrey and Maturin -- IN SPACE! And Maturin's a girl!", though.
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Sep 30, 2013 15:53
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Miss-Bomarc posted:It blew my mind when I read about Ian Douglas on Wikipedia and learned that it was just a pen name for William H. Keith, who also had a lengthy career writing "men's adventure" novels in the 70s and 80s. Hah, that makes sense. I mean, the eponymous Star Carrier is itself named "America." I saw that and I thought "this series is written by a man who has looked into the gaping abyss of mil-sf Flag Porn and said to himself "This is good. But I can do it better."
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Dec 9, 2013 16:25
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fookolt posted:Is that spoilered bit hyperbole or are you being serious? I don't know which answer would make me want to read the book more or less. I'd say he's significantly downplaying and understating things, actually.
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Dec 9, 2013 20:10
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nightchild12 posted:In fact, does anyone have any recommendations along those lines? Space Navy, space battles, exciting adventure stuff. Here are some series that I've liked kind of along those lines (regardless of how good they were): The Lost Fleet, The Vorkosigan Saga (all great, some of them scratch this itch, particularly The Warrior's Apprentice and The Vor Game), the first several books in David Drake's RCN/Leary novels (didn't hit one I disliked, just burned out after reading several in a row), the first few books of Honor Harrington (didn't burn out, just started to hate David Weber), Vatta's War (but not the Serrano books - good but not what I'm asking for). To some extent, the Chanur Saga. I have read several others that were similar but just bad and do not want to try to remember them to list them here. I thought Helfort's War was terrible, despite it being similar to what I want. I thought Poor Man's Fight was allright despite not being what I want (Space Marines vs Space Navy). I thought Spinward Fringe had interesting ideas and technology, but was completely schizophrenic in its plot and characterization. I'm going to cheat. I normally wouldn't do this, but it's time you graduated to the big boy leagues. It's time you read the Aubrey / Maturin series by Patrick O'Brian. The problem you're facing is that you've read basically all or most of the good naval space opera there is; Lost Fleet, Vorkosigan, and David Drake are the best of a bad lot. So you've got a choice: you can go read space infantry novels, like Old Man's War and Starship Troopers, or you can read standard earth naval fiction. And that means heading straight for Aubrey/Maturin. EDIT: Oh hell, why don't you just read Xenophon's Anabasis? It's literally the source and inspiration for the entire Lost Fleet series. Anyone who likes Lost Fleet (and I do!) should at least give Anabasis a try, especially since it's a free download. I'm not trying to get all "READ REAL LITTRACHAW" on you or anything, it just sounds like you're looking for something higher-quality anyway. If you want something light fun you can enjoy reading once, and don't mind space infantry, try Starship Troopers, Old Man's War, and Forever War (probably in that order). Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 14:47
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Good luck! One word of warning for a first dive into the Aubrey / Maturin books: there are pages and pages and pages of hopelessly obscure nautical terminology that you almost certainly will not follow on a first reading. Give it a go anyway but it's ok to just treat it like technobabble at first. The longer you spend reading the series the more intelligible it gets (almost like learning a new language).
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Jul 2, 2014 23:50
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