Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Annakie
Apr 20, 2005

"It's pretty bad, isn't it? I know it's pretty bad. Ever since I can remember..."
I'm starting a Scales of War game with some friends of mine. I played 4 or 5 sessions of it as a player but decided to leave that game and start my own with people I know. I was wondering if anyone had any advice for someone DMing it, specifically? This will be my first time DMing 4e, but I have a little practice DMing 3.5.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

CDW
Aug 26, 2004
Figure out what classes your players are using ASAP so you can either do the treasure for them, or have them do their wishlists. In my game everyone had never played before so I had to pick treasure for them.

Try to let them know, as 1st level adventurers in the world, that running up to melee the ogre attached to the cart in the second encounter is a horribly risky and stupid tactical maneuver.

The skill challenge DCs for the first 2 adventures is the old horribly hard and off method so you'll have to use the newer one to lower them out.

Try to hand out treasure a bit more than the adventure states, it's pretty stingy in terms of how many encounters there are with nothing in them.

If your players were as good tactically as mine, it's almost a snoozefest at how easy it is, I had to drop more monsters in to make it more exciting for them, you'll get a feel for this as you watch them play so ask them if they think the difficulty is right. The only encounter my players felt was tough was the wandering ghouls.

ritorix
Jul 22, 2007

Vancian Roulette
My players are all D&D vets of past editions. In our current campaign and first time DMing for these guys, I'm trying the open-world thing. So on the subject of railroading vs open games...

Near the beginning of my campaign, after some introductory sessions, they are 3rd level and had a number of options for what to do next. Besides their own personal quests, there was rumors of a young swamp dragon allied with lizardmen, a town ruled by a vampire and another town taken by slavers. With 4e, whatever they chose to tackle first would be perfectly fine, I can easily use level-appropriate monsters.

So basically my players are giant pussies. They are still in the pre-4e mindset that certain death is around every corner, despite being 13 sessions in without a single player death. Their thought process went like this: well, dragons sound too tough for our level, we wont go to the swamp. A vampire is also way above our level. Lets do the slaver town, we can probably handle that.

Its annoying and they continue to think about things on a level basis even when I call them out on it. And in a funny way, its a self-fulfilling prophecy: they level up doing the other quests first, making the dragon higher level when they eventually faced it.

The last session they found a 'Loadstone of the Planes', which tells the direction to the nearest portal to the Shadowfell. I've written a whole adventure about this portal and whats on the other side, which has major story bearing on the campaign. Reaction from the players after looting it: whoa whoa whoa, the Plane of Shadows is way too high level for us. Lets not use that stone or we may die.

Instead they went off to do other things. Long story short, I railroaded them with a McGuffin that could only be destroyed on 'another plane', which an NPC refused to give them because they couldnt possibly handle planar travel. Greed is a nice motivator, so they finally use the Loadstone and are ready to take the McGuffin to be destroyed on the only other plane they can get to. Finally I get to use my adventure, several sessions after I planned to.

So they travel out to the drat portal, get in a battle with some guardians, then decide to sleep right outside the portal so they can go in 'fresh' (ie they blew all their Dailys on one easy encounter). Not about to let them get away with that, they are ambushed at night and driven into the portal as the only way to escape. And thats where our last session left off...sometimes you have to railroad a bit.

ritorix fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Jul 7, 2009

TooManyUzukis
Jun 23, 2007

I need some DM advice.

I recently started up a 4e game with my friends, me being the DM. All of us first-timers, though most of us had a decent idea of what to expect based on past experiences with DnD (never playing a real game, however.)

The problem seems to be that almost no one can stay focused on the game. There are several conversations going on at once at the table at almost all times and things have to be re-explained continuously. The campaign we are running is a homebrew setup, which, in hindsight, is probably a _very_ bad idea for a first game. I have an official adventure (H2) I may try to switch to if things don't improve.

Anyway, the question is this: is this normal with introducing people to the game, or is this more likely indicative of a problem with the setup itself (DM skill, boring campaign, etc)? How do you deal with, for lack of a better term, ADD players?

Shrecknet
Jan 2, 2005


TooManyUzukis posted:

Anyway, the question is this: is this normal with introducing people to the game, or is this more likely indicative of a problem with the setup itself (DM skill, boring campaign, etc)? How do you deal with, for lack of a better term, ADD players?
Take away everyone's cell phones, PDAs and Game Boys. Follow that with mood music (throw on the Diablo II soundtrack or any Lord of the Rings movie score), and don't let anyone near a PC or TV.

It also helps if you use voices when you talk (even if - especially if, sometimes - they're lovely caricature voices), and keep in mind the enemies talk during combat, too. Use squeaky kobold voices and have them act like grunts in Halo, if that's what works to engage the players.

Also, homebrew or official is irrelevant, as long as you use adventures that personally involve the PCs. Take away their toys, home or friends and watch them bend over backwards to follow the plot and stay involved.

h_double
Jul 27, 2001

ritorix posted:

So basically my players are giant pussies. They are still in the pre-4e mindset that certain death is around every corner, despite being 13 sessions in without a single player death. Their thought process went like this: well, dragons sound too tough for our level, we wont go to the swamp. A vampire is also way above our level. Lets do the slaver town, we can probably handle that.

Its annoying and they continue to think about things on a level basis even when I call them out on it. And in a funny way, its a self-fulfilling prophecy: they level up doing the other quests first, making the dragon higher level when they eventually faced it.

I would like to gently suggest that there can be too much of a good thing where game balance is concerned.

If your players have a bit of ongoing nervousness about "oh poo poo if we do the wrong thing we are hosed", that's a GOOD thing. That builds tension and keeps the players on the edge of their seats and makes the overall game more exciting. It rewards strategic (and not just tactical) planning. If they are thinking in terms of "our long term plan should be X, then Y, to muster our forces to conquer Z", that's AWESOME, you should not be talking them out of that kind of thinking!

I don't know if you know the Elder Scrolls computer RPGs, but Morrowind is still considered one of the greatest open-world RPGs ever. It was followed by Oblivion a few years later, which was a prettier and more polished game, but one which was widely criticized on account of all of the enemies in the game scaled according to the player's level. It didn't matter what order you explored the world because whereever you went you would always be guaranteed a fair fight. It sucked much of the sense of danger out of the game, and much of the intrigue and thrill of exploration along with it.

I'm not knocking the encounter scaling system in 4E, nor am I saying you should be a sadistic GM out to kill the PCs. But make them sweat, encourage them to play intelligently (and strategically). If they start to worry about "oh we're so screwed if we go that way", don't try to reassure them, just smile knowingly and make them squirm a little bit. Think in terms of being a director of a suspenseful action movie, not a tour guide at an amusement park.

h_double
Jul 27, 2001

tendrilsfor20 posted:

Take away everyone's cell phones, PDAs and Game Boys. Follow that with mood music (throw on the Diablo II soundtrack or any Lord of the Rings movie score), and don't let anyone near a PC or TV.

No, don't "take away" anything, this isn't junior high. But don't be afraid to be politely a hard-rear end about no electronics at the table if that becomes a problem (and definitely don't have any TVs or whatever going in the room).

A lot of it is just that one of the hats you have to wear as a GM (which they never quite spell out in the rule books) is that you have to learn to be a meeting facilitator and to Keep Things On Task, and that definitely is a learned skill.

When your group gets together for a session, expect about 15 minutes of settling in time for everybody to get relaxed and chat. But once the game starts, remember that everybody is going to be waiting for you (the GM) to take the lead. Be confident but don't be bossy. Talk the group through the current situation, prompting for responses as necessary and leaving plenty of space for players to make suggestions and offer input. Make sure you are really comfortable with the rules and it'll be easier to keep things running smoothly.

Tendrils' suggestion about being dramatic and a little hammy is excellent. Don't be afraid to get up and move around the room and use plenty of body language to help get your point across -- hunch your shoulders and wrinkle your brow if you're giving a speech as an evil NPC, that sort of thing. A little cheese is good, players will eat it up and enthusiasm is contagious.

Overall, have patience with yourself and your group, like I say GMing is definitely a learned skill and it can take some practice to get comfortable with the role and in tune with what your players are looking for and to generally run a kick-rear end game.

My other suggestion, if it's an option, would be for you to sit in for a couple sessions with a more experienced group, maybe at a local gaming store or gaming club or whatever, to get a better sense of the flow of things.

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire

h_double posted:

No, don't "take away" anything, this isn't junior high. But don't be afraid to be politely a hard-rear end about no electronics at the table if that becomes a problem (and definitely don't have any TVs or whatever going in the room).

This. I used to be bad about it, I would fool on my laptop during 3e games because during battles there were long stretches of nothing to do.
I evantually broke that habit and it feels kind of hypocritical but I enforce it because one guy has a habit of busting out his PSP mid game when he should be paying attention. It's not that he doesn't care it's just it can get boring, and you have other things on your mind. It's only human but you gotta be strict because if he gets more into the distraction than the game it's over, even when its his turn he'll still be playing that PSP.

Kemper Boyd
Aug 6, 2007

no kings, no gods, no masters but a comfy chair and no socks

RagnarokAngel posted:

I used to be bad about it, I would fool on my laptop during 3e games because during battles there were long stretches of nothing to do.

Laptops remind me of my new idea to stop having books at the tables and instead roll with a laptop having relevant pdf's.

The first session went off very well, since no one actually ever wants to look up any rules and I make my players print out stuff they need (like spells and special abilities) and I can concentrate on the game instead of looking up rules clarifications which in 95% of the cases turn out to be irrelevant.

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire

Kemper Boyd posted:

Laptops remind me of my new idea to stop having books at the tables and instead roll with a laptop having relevant pdf's.

The first session went off very well, since no one actually ever wants to look up any rules and I make my players print out stuff they need (like spells and special abilities) and I can concentrate on the game instead of looking up rules clarifications which in 95% of the cases turn out to be irrelevant.

That's more or less how it works for me. I keep my laptop but I keep it closed most of the game. I look up rulings if something comes up (got some old school gamers so they're sticklers for the rules) and use a .txt document to track HP totals because its easier than scratch paper.
But its closed the rest so I'm not tempted to use it during their turns to browse the net and such, and people dont feel I'm enjoying my computer and theyre not allowed to bring one.

Annakie
Apr 20, 2005

"It's pretty bad, isn't it? I know it's pretty bad. Ever since I can remember..."

CDW posted:

Figure out what classes your players are using ASAP so you can either do the treasure for them, or have them do their wishlists. In my game everyone had never played before so I had to pick treasure for them.

Try to let them know, as 1st level adventurers in the world, that running up to melee the ogre attached to the cart in the second encounter is a horribly risky and stupid tactical maneuver.

The skill challenge DCs for the first 2 adventures is the old horribly hard and off method so you'll have to use the newer one to lower them out.

Try to hand out treasure a bit more than the adventure states, it's pretty stingy in terms of how many encounters there are with nothing in them.

If your players were as good tactically as mine, it's almost a snoozefest at how easy it is, I had to drop more monsters in to make it more exciting for them, you'll get a feel for this as you watch them play so ask them if they think the difficulty is right. The only encounter my players felt was tough was the wandering ghouls.

This was really helpful, thanks! I've got 3 experienced 4e players (one of whom is my DM in another game, the other two I play in that game with), two who have played 3.0/3.5 and one who has barely played except for a half-dozen or so sessions or 2e. The 4Ers are going to help me teach the new players and I've already asked them for their wishlists. I'm already looking at items for the others. I was already thinking since I have 6 players and Rivenroar only has 5 treasures I'm planning on doubling the number of treasures in there, but your post confirmed it was a good idea. :)

I'm also going to need to drop in a few more creatures with six players, but I might bump that up a few more if you think the fights are already too easy. Thanks so much for the advice. If you think of anything else, please let me know!

I've got a fighter, warlord, wizard, druid, ranger and avenger playing, it should be a solid party but a little light on healing. I've cautioned everyone to think about picking up at least one healing potion, made sure at least one person has the heal skill, have already talked to everyone about remembering to use their Second Wind, any other ideas to help keep the party alive once the Warlord's used his Inspiring Word twice in a long encounter?

Kemper Boyd
Aug 6, 2007

no kings, no gods, no masters but a comfy chair and no socks

Annakie posted:

I've cautioned everyone to think about picking up at least one healing potion, made sure at least one person has the heal skill, have already talked to everyone about remembering to use their Second Wind, any other ideas to help keep the party alive once the Warlord's used his Inspiring Word twice in a long encounter?

Make sure that the Warlord has his tiny lil' heal-at will. I can't remember the exact name, Encouraging Words or something. Also a big party being light on healing is not a big deal really, as long as the encounters are balanced reasonably. The amount of tactical flexibility the party gets from their numbers is a much bigger factor in combat than lack of healing.

cbirdsong
Sep 8, 2004

Commodore of the Apocalypso
Lipstick Apathy
Hello, new DM here for a very green group. We are all pretty big video game dorks, but none of us have played D&D before. We are following Keep at the Shadowfell, but I've been tweaking things to make the beginning a bit more interesting. I have created a weird sort of encounter for next week and was wondering if some more experienced players/DMs might tell me if it's going to suck or not. (I sort of want them to think outside of the box more in and out of combat, and this what I came up with to try to encourage that.)

In the cave under the waterfall, the players find a blocked up door after defeating the normal encounter there. If they open it, there is a large clay/rock golem type creature inside. I tailored the creature so that it has a lot of defense, but doesn't hit very hard, and I intend for the players to kill it by dragging it into the waterfall using the grappling hooks they found outside. The defender is a water type Genasi, so the monster will run away from him as a sort of clue. Do you guys think they will be able to figure it out?

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire

CDOR Gemini posted:

Hello, new DM here for a very green group. We are all pretty big video game dorks, but none of us have played D&D before. We are following Keep at the Shadowfell, but I've been tweaking things to make the beginning a bit more interesting. I have created a weird sort of encounter for next week and was wondering if some more experienced players/DMs might tell me if it's going to suck or not. (I sort of want them to think outside of the box more in and out of combat, and this what I came up with to try to encourage that.)

In the cave under the waterfall, the players find a blocked up door after defeating the normal encounter there. If they open it, there is a large clay/rock golem type creature inside. I tailored the creature so that it has a lot of defense, but doesn't hit very hard, and I intend for the players to kill it by dragging it into the waterfall using the grappling hooks they found outside. The defender is a water type Genasi, so the monster will run away from him as a sort of clue. Do you guys think they will be able to figure it out?

I'm not sure I completely understand. This is at ground level behind the waterfall right? If it's not high up then it won't be as obvious.
I'd either make the monster like, mud (so its clear water could defintely hurt it) or emphasis the river rushes rapidly that if anyone fell in they would be surely be taken by the current (obviously emphasis this BEFORE as it feels forced if you tell them after.

cbirdsong
Sep 8, 2004

Commodore of the Apocalypso
Lipstick Apathy
Yeah, ground level, in a cave behind a waterfall. In addition to the water genasi making him immediately flee, I had planned to describe the creature's blows as having dried chunks of dirt flying off. I've already emphasized that the waterfall/river is extremely rough terrain, though they could move through it slowly. Is that a situation players are supposed to use strength or athletics checks, though? When/how to apply checks is still something I'm not super-clear on.

cbirdsong fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Jul 7, 2009

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire

CDOR Gemini posted:

Yeah, ground level, in a cave behind a waterfall. In addition to the water genasi making him immediately flee, I had planned to describe the creature's blows as having dried chunks of dirt flying off. I've already emphasized that the waterfall/river is extremely rough terrain, though they could move through it slowly. Is that a situation players are supposed to use strength or athletics checks, though? When/how to apply checks is still something I'm not super-clear on.

Checks are generally applied whenever failure is a possibility. In the case of the water if its so rough it could pull them I'd say it's an athletics check.

Maddman
Mar 15, 2005

Women...bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch

CDOR Gemini posted:

Hello, new DM here for a very green group. We are all pretty big video game dorks, but none of us have played D&D before. We are following Keep at the Shadowfell, but I've been tweaking things to make the beginning a bit more interesting. I have created a weird sort of encounter for next week and was wondering if some more experienced players/DMs might tell me if it's going to suck or not. (I sort of want them to think outside of the box more in and out of combat, and this what I came up with to try to encourage that.)

In the cave under the waterfall, the players find a blocked up door after defeating the normal encounter there. If they open it, there is a large clay/rock golem type creature inside. I tailored the creature so that it has a lot of defense, but doesn't hit very hard, and I intend for the players to kill it by dragging it into the waterfall using the grappling hooks they found outside. The defender is a water type Genasi, so the monster will run away from him as a sort of clue. Do you guys think they will be able to figure it out?

That's a pretty cool scene, just make sure you don't lock yourself into it. You've given them a challenging situation and one way out of it - drag the golem into the waterfall. But if they come up with something else, be open to that working as well. Maybe the warrior types will keep it busy while someone does a ritual to summon a rainstorm to flood the cave. Or they take turns dumping waterskins on it, making it more and more muddy. Or instead of grappling hooks the use the Genasai to herd it close, then the fighter does the rest with Tide of Iron. Or whatever.

You don't want to get into a situation where the ONLY way to defeat this monster is the specific way you've envisioned. It doesn't matter how many hints you drop, they might not get it. That's okay, maybe they'll think of something cooler than you.

The next step is to throw these challenging situations at them without a pre-determined method of overcoming it. Just put in something crazy they can't just stab to death and see what they come up with. :)

Giant Tourtiere
Aug 4, 2006

TRICHER
POUR
GAGNER
Yeah, i actually more or less ruined the end of my last Shadowrun campaign this way. There was the requisite big evil dude the runners needed to get rid of, and my intention was that they would basically get his powerful enemies to do it for them. I had designed his estate to be as impregnable as I could make it so that they would get the idea that an assault or infiltration was not going to work and that they had to find a workaround.

Unfortunately they just got discouraged and annoyed with the <various expletives> fortress I had designed, and eventually more or less abandoned their efforts. The really bad part was that everyone was graduating and moving away so it was our last session and the campaign ended on a real downer.

tl;dr: Give your players multiple ways of solving problems. What seems obvious to you may not be obvious to them, no matter what clues you think are there.

wet sector
Jul 16, 2006
computer updated... computer updated...
A few friends and I decided to start playing D&D, and I've opted to be the DM. We're playing with the basic rule guide and the 'Keep on the Shadowfell' campaign that you can download on Wizard's website. However, I've never DM'd or even played D&D, and no one in our group has any experience with the game either. Does anyone have advice for a budding DM? I've read the rules and the first few parts of the campaign, but I'm worried about being able to take the countless rules and storylines and turn them into a comprehensible game for everyone. I've got a bunch of questions too:

We only have 4 people including myself, and I was planning on having my own character in the game as well as being the DM. Is there any standard etiquette for doing this? My plan was to have my character be completely mute and introverted so he doesn't ever have a role where he has to lead people.

What if a player wants to do something completely off the wall? For example, if I want my wizard to tie down a goblin with rope and torture him with a fire spell, how do I do this?

We're a bunch of assholes, and I foresee many, many backstabbings taking place which lead to character death. Is there an easy way to implement resurrection so this isn't a serious issue?

Thanks for any help guys.

Kerison
Apr 9, 2004

by angerbot

wet sector posted:

A few friends and I decided to start playing D&D, and I've opted to be the DM. We're playing with the basic rule guide and the 'Keep on the Shadowfell' campaign that you can download on Wizard's website. However, I've never DM'd or even played D&D, and no one in our group has any experience with the game either. Does anyone have advice for a budding DM? I've read the rules and the first few parts of the campaign, but I'm worried about being able to take the countless rules and storylines and turn them into a comprehensible game for everyone. I've got a bunch of questions too:

We only have 4 people including myself, and I was planning on having my own character in the game as well as being the DM. Is there any standard etiquette for doing this? My plan was to have my character be completely mute and introverted so he doesn't ever have a role where he has to lead people.

What if a player wants to do something completely off the wall? For example, if I want my wizard to tie down a goblin with rope and torture him with a fire spell, how do I do this?

We're a bunch of assholes, and I foresee many, many backstabbings taking place which lead to character death. Is there an easy way to implement resurrection so this isn't a serious issue?

Thanks for any help guys.

To answer the DMPC question, you seem to understand the basics. Never take the spotlight. At best, offer a helping hand when the PCs are completely stuck. You can characterize him as much as you like, just don't take the focus away from the PCs or take the choices and action away from them.

If the player wants to do something completely beyond the rules, just bullshit out your rear end. You're the DM. The players won't question you if you sound like you're sure about something. Pick a DC and roll with it. You're God, after all.

Backstabbing and internecine conflict can complicate things quite a bit, and I unfortunately have no advice for you on that matter. But PC death isn't that big of a deal, and no player should get so attached to his character as to be unable to let go of him in the case of SUDDEN DEATH. It's just a game, after all.

even worse username posted:

tl;dr: Give your players multiple ways of solving problems. What seems obvious to you may not be obvious to them, no matter what clues you think are there.

Go one step further: when they come up with some clever (but perhaps completely nonsensical) solution, pretend you planned it that way all along. Just bullshit the solution to whatever problem you've presented them, if necessary, but never let the PCs feel so lost and incompetent that they throw their hands up and say "gently caress it, we give up." If they really can't spot your awesome solution, just go along with whatever it is they came up with. It's better than spending ten or more minutes sitting around while they ponder amongst themselves.

Remember that the DM's job is, first and foremost, moving the game along at a brisk pace and making sure that everyone has fun and feels like they're accomplishing something.

Kerison fucked around with this message at 09:00 on Jul 11, 2009

Giant Tourtiere
Aug 4, 2006

TRICHER
POUR
GAGNER

wet sector posted:


What if a player wants to do something completely off the wall? For example, if I want my wizard to tie down a goblin with rope and torture him with a fire spell, how do I do this?


The best thing to do, in my view, is just to wing it. Nothing is less fun, and destroys faith in the GM more, than having you spend a bunch of time looking up obscure rules. Decide what you think makes sense, and go with that. If you think it's important, look it up later. If it turns out you played things completely wrong, you may want to explain things to your players and make amends if necessary, but the important thing for everyone's fun is to keep the action going.

In that specific situation, unless there's some particular reason for the goblin to be tough as nails, he probably spills his guts. If the torture is just for the heck of it, I guess then it depends how much you and your players want to get into graphic descriptions of burning goblin flesh.

With the player on player violence, as long as everyone is cool with it that could be a fun game. On the other hand, if most of the players want to be a team and you've got one guy determined to stab them in the back every chance he gets, it can be a problem for the game, not the PCs.

"Kerison posted:

Go one step further: when they come up with some clever (but perhaps completely nonsensical) solution, pretend you planned it that way all along. Just bullshit the solution to whatever problem you've presented them, if necessary, but never let the PCs feel so lost and incompetent that they throw their hands up and say "gently caress it, we give up." If they really can't spot your awesome solution, just go along with whatever it is they came up with. It's better than spending ten or more minutes sitting around while they ponder amongst themselves.

Absolutely. Improvising is one of the GM's primary skills, successfully concealing the fact that you're improvising is another. One of the sessions I got the most satisfaction from was a in a D6 Star Wars campaign where the PCs went off in a completely unanticipated direction right off the bat, so I was winging it the entire session. I gave them a (fake) reproach for doing such a horrible thing to me at the end of the night, and was really pleased that they hadn't been able to tell.

If your players are having fun, go with it to the greatest extent you can. You can always get them back into the main plot another time if you want.

Veth
May 13, 2002
Homeless Pariah
How do people handle absenteeism and experience? Traditionally, I've always ran games where, if you aren't present, you don't get any XP. This has been just fine for everyone so far. Recently, one player got pissy that he didn't get any XP for a session he missed. He told me what his character would be doing, which is fine as an explanation as to where the character was during the session, but it seems to defeat the purpose of having people show up to play if it's treated as a substitute.

I don't like the "I gave my sheet to soandso to play" argument. If it was just about having your stats handy, I could add NPCs as needed to balance things.

This is an Exalted game, if it matters.

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire

Veth posted:

How do people handle absenteeism and experience? Traditionally, I've always ran games where, if you aren't present, you don't get any XP. This has been just fine for everyone so far. Recently, one player got pissy that he didn't get any XP for a session he missed. He told me what his character would be doing, which is fine as an explanation as to where the character was during the session, but it seems to defeat the purpose of having people show up to play if it's treated as a substitute.

I don't like the "I gave my sheet to soandso to play" argument. If it was just about having your stats handy, I could add NPCs as needed to balance things.

This is an Exalted game, if it matters.

It's lame but holding out on XP is a bad idea. I usually handle it one of 2 ways.
1.If you can get the person's sheet, have someone else play it. You don't like that that's fine I see the argument
2.If you cant get access to it, play the game as it were with the one less person. If you have 5 people, and one doesnt show, run it with 4. give out XP as if fights were won with 4. When the person gets back, put them back on the same level of XP as everyone else. To make it "fair" to people who did show up, let them have first dibs on all money and magic items. The absent player will not get gold unless the group feels generous, and will only get magic items if no one else wants them.

It seems unfair to reward people for not showing up, but sometimes life gets in the way and thats not fair to them. On top of that you're asking to end up with a group of varying levels and that rapidly becomes a clusterfuck to maintain. If a person is gone so much that it really becomes a problem, it's something you should talk to them about, or if it comes to it, drop them.

Poopy Palpy
Jun 10, 2000

Im da fwiggin Poopy Palpy XD
Presumably you show up to games because, you know, it's fun to play in them, not for the XP and loot. From that perspective, it sucks enough to miss out on something fun that docking that person's share of the XP and loot just seems like a dick move, for both the absentee and the rest of the party.

Veth
May 13, 2002
Homeless Pariah
It was introduced to me a long time ago as the way things were done and since no one else who thought otherwise bothered to GM anything, that's the way it stayed. Now that someone's raised a stink about it, I'm willing to re-evaluate it.

Now that I've gotten actual opinions from people who aren't actively whining at me, I'm going to just say everyone gets the same XP regardless. It's easier book-keeping for everyone, especially me.

Thanks

h_double
Jul 27, 2001
Two options in my group:

1) Designate another player to control your character for the session, collect XP as normal. No complaining if something bad happens to the character. Discouraged and rarely done, but sometimes a necessary evil for party balance or to keep the story moving.

2) "Your character is off looking after a sick friend / celebrating a gnomish holiday". Character is not present for that session, collects no XP.


No risk, no reward.


(Also, new characters start at 1st level / 0 XP, period. I wouldn't have it any other way as a player OR a GM. I really don't get the appeal of the "players should remain on equal footing just because" mindset).


RagnarokAngel posted:

It seems unfair to reward people for not showing up, but sometimes life gets in the way and thats not fair to them. On top of that you're asking to end up with a group of varying levels and that rapidly becomes a clusterfuck to maintain.

I've never found that to be the case. In our Hackmaster group, we had a couple of level 1 characters in a group that was mostly level 7-8, and it was awesome (I was one of the level 1 chars). You get your butt kicked a lot, but you find a useful niche, and being in a higher-level group means you get loot and XP a lot faster and catch up pretty quickly. Plus it can be cool from a roleplaying / story hook perspective -- look at Star Wars, where Luke was a relatively unskilled nublet running around in a group full of seasoned badasses.

h_double fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Jul 26, 2009

Poopy Palpy
Jun 10, 2000

Im da fwiggin Poopy Palpy XD
"New players start at 0xp regardless of the rest of the party's level" seems like needless grognardism to me. You're basically saying that the only way anyone in the universe who might join the party could possibly have advanced in skill level is by adventuring with the party, which is patently ridiculous. You might be able to get a wide disparity in player levels to work in some games, but there are a bunch of games where the players who are behind aren't going to have any fun because they can't contribute; the players who are ahead aren't going to have any fun dragging a bunch of scrubs around; and the GM isn't going to have any fun because it's impossible to plan encounters. I'm not disputing that it can, on occasion, be interesting and fun, but as a hard and fast rule it can also be problematic.

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire

h_double posted:

Two options in my group:

1) Designate another player to control your character for the session, collect XP as normal. No complaining if something bad happens to the character. Discouraged and rarely done, but sometimes a necessary evil for party balance or to keep the story moving.

2) "Your character is off looking after a sick friend / celebrating a gnomish holiday". Character is not present for that session, collects no XP.


No risk, no reward.


(Also, new characters start at 1st level / 0 XP, period. I wouldn't have it any other way as a player OR a GM. I really don't get the appeal of the "players should remain on equal footing just because" mindset).


I've never found that to be the case. In our Hackmaster group, we had a couple of level 1 characters in a group that was mostly level 7-8, and it was awesome (I was one of the level 1 chars). You get your butt kicked a lot, but you find a useful niche, and being in a higher-level group means you get loot and XP a lot faster and catch up pretty quickly. Plus it can be cool from a roleplaying / story hook perspective -- look at Star Wars, where Luke was a relatively unskilled nublet running around in a group full of seasoned badasses.

This is pretty stupid I'm gonna be honest with ya.

Taran
Nov 2, 2002

What? I don't get to yell "I'LL FINISH THIS" anymore?



Grimey Drawer

Veth posted:

How do people handle absenteeism and experience? Traditionally, I've always ran games where, if you aren't present, you don't get any XP. This has been just fine for everyone so far. Recently, one player got pissy that he didn't get any XP for a session he missed. He told me what his character would be doing, which is fine as an explanation as to where the character was during the session, but it seems to defeat the purpose of having people show up to play if it's treated as a substitute.

I don't like the "I gave my sheet to soandso to play" argument. If it was just about having your stats handy, I could add NPCs as needed to balance things.

This is an Exalted game, if it matters.

For all the games I've been in, it depends on how XP is awarded in the game.

If XP is a thing the players get (for instance, a game that awards a flat 1000 XP per session for player attendance), and has other out-of-game ways to increase your XP, then it makes more sense to withhold XP from players for not attending.

If XP is a thing the characters get (for instance, defeating the bugbear king and his minions earns the party 2500 XP), then the characters should get XP if the characters were involved in the adventure, even if the character was run by another player. Alternatively, if the character does go off looking after a sick friend / celebrating a gnomish holiday, one thing that can work is to have the character end up on some sort of sidequest to explain why they got as much XP as the rest of the party.

h_double
Jul 27, 2001

Poopy Palpy posted:

"New players start at 0xp regardless of the rest of the party's level" seems like needless grognardism to me. You're basically saying that the only way anyone in the universe who might join the party could possibly have advanced in skill level is by adventuring with the party, which is patently ridiculous. You might be able to get a wide disparity in player levels to work in some games, but there are a bunch of games where the players who are behind aren't going to have any fun because they can't contribute; the players who are ahead aren't going to have any fun dragging a bunch of scrubs around; and the GM isn't going to have any fun because it's impossible to plan encounters. I'm not disputing that it can, on occasion, be interesting and fun, but as a hard and fast rule it can also be problematic.

I can see how it could be problematic in D&D, where 1st level characters are pretty low-powered and where so much of the game is built around the assumption of balanced encounters.

But of the games I and my group typically play:

Hackmaster is such that 1st level characters can actually have a bit of firepower and durability (Hackmaster also has a cool protege mechanic, where you can allot some of your XP to train a student/henchman, so your character's successor can start at greater than first level, while still having indirectly earned those levels)

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is so explicitly about gritty zero-to-hero -- and the scope of the game is a lot broader than just combat -- that toughing it out with fledgling characters is a lot of the fun.

Point-based games like GURPS, HERO, etc. are such that specific skill levels are a lot more important than raw point totals. That's not to say I'd stick a 100 point character in a group full of 500 point powerhouses, but even a 25-50 point power gap isn't necessarily that significant.



Overall, I just think that -- for a XP/level based game -- levels and loot are a lot more rewarding when there's some risk and cool in-game backstory to go along with it.

Sometimes mixed-level parties CAN be a bit of pain to maintain, but I also think that every complication is potentially a way to do something cool and interesting.

Luebbi
Jul 28, 2000
Everyone in my group has a family, a job, and some have other stuff to do. They all love to play, but sometimes someone can't make it - that's punishment enough. For our next campaign, we decided that the GM keeps track of XP and advances everyone whenever, no matter how often they attended. Everyone stays at the same level. People who attend can get tokens for good roleplaying that they can spend to buy one-off bonuses like rerolls or +1 to any roll made.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.

h_double posted:

No risk, no reward.

If you ever said this at my table I would boot you so hard. It's grognard talk. Games are supposed to be fun and it's not fun to get crapped on if you miss a session. Real life happens and gently caress you if you punish someone for not appearing for A FUN GAME. Do you know what their punishment was? That they missed out on the fun of the session! Plus, they are off-balance at the next session ("what's going on? who is this person?")

"No risk, no reward" is fine for a game with strangers or for a competitive game but RPGs are a co-op game and gently caress you for not realizing that.

Edit: It's awesome to be the 3rd level character in a 5th level party. Lots of fun. You loving moron.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Joudas
Sep 29, 2005

Now here's a kid who's whole world got all twisted,
leaving him stranded on a rock in the sky...

Luebbi posted:

Everyone in my group has a family, a job, and some have other stuff to do. They all love to play, but sometimes someone can't make it - that's punishment enough.

Hey look, something that makes sense!

What's with all this "play hard" poo poo? This is a fantasy role play game not some X-treme sport.

h_double
Jul 27, 2001

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

If you ever said this at my table I would boot you so hard. It's grognard talk. Games are supposed to be fun and it's not fun to get crapped on if you miss a session. Real life happens and gently caress you if you punish someone for not appearing for A FUN GAME. Do you know what their punishment was? That they missed out on the fun of the session! Plus, they are off-balance at the next session ("what's going on? who is this person?")

"No risk, no reward" is fine for a game with strangers or for a competitive game but RPGs are a co-op game and gently caress you for not realizing that.

Edit: It's awesome to be the 3rd level character in a 5th level party. Lots of fun. You loving moron.

RPGs have a cooperative element but they are still a GAME, which ought to have challenges and rewards. You can have a cooperative party and still have an element of friendly competition.

RPGs grew out of miniatures gaming, and it's perfectly possible to keep some of that aspect of risk and challenge and competition without it turning into a PvP hatefest. Sometimes one player gets the best loot or singlehandedly saves the day, sometimes friendly rivalries come up; if you've got a good group it's all in good fun and can add something to the game.

And again, I'm not trying to say "I'm right / you're wrong", I'm trying to participate in a discussion by saying "this is how my group and I play, and we think it's really cool and really adds something to the game."

And good job personally insulting a stranger because they play toy soldiers differently than you do.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world
Nope, extra-punishing people who had to miss the last session with XP loss is indefensibly stupid. "Risk and challenge and competition" do not involve seeing who can best dodge real-life entanglements in their quest to show up for the session.

Arrrthritis
May 31, 2007

I don't care if you're a star, the moon, or the whole damn sky, you need to come back down to earth and remember where you came from
My players gotta want the XP. If they don't want it enough, too bad, tarrasque up their rear end.

Really, it seems like experience and loot penalties are for new players and (man)children. I'm sure a perfectly normal and well-balanced players realize that playing D&D is for fun, and sometimes poo poo happens and you have to prioritize your life over a tabletop game. However, there is that minority out there that thinks that D&D is all about getting an epic level 60 illithid monk/sorcerer and that if their character takes 1d4 non lethal it is going to ruin their lives. It is for that minority that the GM has this power. This might get them to actually play the game, and who knows, maybe they'll realize that playing D&D can be fun.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.

h_double posted:

RPGs have a cooperative element but they are still a GAME, which ought to have challenges and rewards. You can have a cooperative party and still have an element of friendly competition.

RPGs grew out of miniatures gaming, and it's perfectly possible to keep some of that aspect of risk and challenge and competition without it turning into a PvP hatefest. Sometimes one player gets the best loot or singlehandedly saves the day, sometimes friendly rivalries come up; if you've got a good group it's all in good fun and can add something to the game.

And again, I'm not trying to say "I'm right / you're wrong", I'm trying to participate in a discussion by saying "this is how my group and I play, and we think it's really cool and really adds something to the game."

And good job personally insulting a stranger because they play toy soldiers differently than you do.

Look at how incredibly dumb you are. Literally nothing you said had anything to do with my assertion. You talk about rivalries at the table: who cares? You talk about loot and poo poo. Who cares? I don't care if RPGs come out of miniature games. That is 100 percent not pertinent to what we are discussing. We're talking about punishing people mechanically for missing sessions, you spazz. Try to keep your spastic mind on subject.

You actually have bought into the MMORPG paradigm of "challenge and rewards are what make a game." What makes a game is fun, stupid. Reducing the options that a player has in your game because they missed a session is dumber than hell.

A game is supposed to be fun, literally everything about the game is meant to facilitate that. It's not fun to be killed by monsters, but it's also not fun to steamroll them. It's not fun to have a static character that never does anything new, but it's also not fun to go from Hank the Rookie Paladin to Hank the Ruler of Men in three sessions. Do you see that? Do you see how the "challenge" and "risk" really only exists to facilitate player fun? These are all things that a good GM balances to keep the game fun.

What a good GM does not do is mechanically punish a player for missing a session, because the reality is you are playing a co-operative social game and sometimes life happens.

Nog
May 15, 2006

Usually, I don't award full XP for missing a session. Like people have been saying, the games are about fun. That doesn't mean that you have to be at the same XP as everyone. If your main attraction to PnP RPing is XP, then I'd rather not have you at my table.

To me, awarding full XP even when someone misses the session is sort of missing the point. I like to award the larger chunk of XP based not on how many kobolds you killed, but simply on the basis of quality roleplaying and the enjoyment of a player's company. Ideally, we're all beer-and-pretzels gamers sitting around more to hang out with eachother than for the sake of pretending to be elves in some silly game. With that in mind, losing a player's presence at the table is doesn't mean so much that you lose the aid of their character, it means you lose the chance to shoot the breeze with them.

All that aside though, I do try and make some compromise for those folks who just can't make it (because it does suck to get the double whammy of missing the game and getting left behind half a level or so). Usually, I try and offer half-XP for the session if they're willing to write up a basic story (only a page or two tops) of what their character did during that session. It doesn't have to be a masterpiece, just something like we see for most of the TG PbP games will do.

Mikan
Sep 5, 2007

by Radium

ripped0ff posted:

With that in mind, losing a player's presence at the table is doesn't mean so much that you lose the aid of their character, it means you lose the chance to shoot the breeze with them.

That player also already lost the chance to shoot the breeze with everybody else (which sucks to begin with) and you're further penalizing them by docking XP.

quote:

If your main attraction to PnP RPing is XP, then I'd rather not have you at my table.

This completely misses the point.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire

ripped0ff posted:

Usually, I don't award full XP for missing a session. Like people have been saying, the games are about fun. That doesn't mean that you have to be at the same XP as everyone. If your main attraction to PnP RPing is XP, then I'd rather not have you at my table.

To me, awarding full XP even when someone misses the session is sort of missing the point. I like to award the larger chunk of XP based not on how many kobolds you killed, but simply on the basis of quality roleplaying and the enjoyment of a player's company. Ideally, we're all beer-and-pretzels gamers sitting around more to hang out with eachother than for the sake of pretending to be elves in some silly game. With that in mind, losing a player's presence at the table is doesn't mean so much that you lose the aid of their character, it means you lose the chance to shoot the breeze with them.

But by that point, if its a casual experience, and XP shouldnt be important, who cares if they get full XP? It's more fun for everyone if everyone's roughly the same power level. A level or 2 difference wont kill you sure, but more than that and the power gap gets nasty. Being useless isn't fun for anyone, regardless of what anyone else is saying.

I think if it's honestly such a frequent issue that you feel the person should be penalized (once or twice because mom had to goto the hospital or someone called in work sick and he has to cover is being dickish) you should consider talking to them or dropping them, not conniving to punish them for not participating in your beer and pretzels game.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply