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Nog
May 15, 2006

Not rewarding someone is not the same as punishing them. You're not exactly hitting them with XP loss, you're just not giving them new XP. Even using this system, I've never seen anyone fall more than one level behind. Unless you give huge amounts of XP each session, missing a session doesn't often put you at a huge disadvantage, and missing half XP is hardly a penalty.

I think something needs to be said for the GM in all this. I'm sure all of you guys can appreciate the problem of having planned a large part of one session around someone's character hooks, only to have them not show up. By itself, that's not a problem. But when said person is only missing the session because you got a drunk email from them at 5 AM saying they were too wasted to make the session, it's a bit like having them take a poo poo down your throat. Sure, I'm not going to ask folks to forego partying and normal socializing for the sake of a game, but there does need to be actual incentive to attending the game as well as the just showing up to bullshit.

Take another example of the standard Rip van Winkle player. You know, the one who shows up half asleep because he was up all night (maybe even for a perfectly legit reason like working late), nods off all throughout the session, and only opens his eyes to say "I attack" and then roll. No GM I know of would give that player as much XP as the others, if for no other reason than roleplaying XP alone. But for some reason we're saying that if that same player were to just skip the session entirely, they ought to receive full XP?

Maybe I am just a super young grognard, but I've always played it like this and I've never heard anyone ever complain about it. Hell, I thought I was some super nice and lenient GM for even giving the option of half-XP.

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Lugubrious
Jul 2, 2004

I guess I'm lucky that I play with my friends in real life and if someone doesn't show up we just get drunk and play video games instead or watch a movie or something and just play DnD the next week.

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire

ripped0ff posted:

Maybe I am just a super young grognard, but I've always played it like this and I've never heard anyone ever complain about it. Hell, I thought I was some super nice and lenient GM for even giving the option of half-XP.

No you're worse than Hitler. Repent.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

ripped0ff posted:

If your main attraction to PnP RPing is XP, then I'd rather not have you at my table.

But...that's precisely the assumption that you're operating on. That's why you don't give experience points to players who missed sessions. Because you think that the point of sessions is to get experience points, and it would somehow shortchange the people there if people who weren't there also got experience points.

I mean, that's actually the implicit reasoning. "It'd be unfair to the players who got xp for sitting through my game session if other people were to get xp completely for free, so I'd better not give the non-attendees xp in order to maintain up the incentive to show up."

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.

ripped0ff posted:

I think something needs to be said for the GM in all this. I'm sure all of you guys can appreciate the problem of having planned a large part of one session around someone's character hooks, only to have them not show up. By itself, that's not a problem. But when said person is only missing the session because you got a drunk email from them at 5 AM saying they were too wasted to make the session, it's a bit like having them take a poo poo down your throat. Sure, I'm not going to ask folks to forego partying and normal socializing for the sake of a game, but there does need to be actual incentive to attending the game as well as the just showing up to bullshit.

The incentive is the fun. They missed the fun. If you have to "incentivize" the player with threatening to assign XP penalties, you might as well "incentivize" other players with free magic weapons and armor for attending.

If someone takes a poo poo down your throat for an out of game reason you don't penalize them in the drat game. Be a loving adult. You talk to them like a person. You let them know it's disrespectful. You don't ever mess with their character like a goddamn child for petty revenge.

I had three of my players miss my session for a bullshit reason once (a brother, his sister, and her boyfriend.) Something about having to work on a school paper for her community college classes, and the brother and boyfriend wouldn't attend without her. I politely told them that their excuse didn't fly, they were a large part of the game and if they didn't attend things were dead in the water, and that if I could work a 50+ hour a week job and still find time to run a game that they could certainly make the effort to do some basic time management and avoid procrastination so that they could attend it. A few weeks later, they pulled the same poo poo. At that point they got (politely) booted and replaced within 2 sessions. At no point did I feel the need to penalize their characters even though the players behaved quite badly, because I'm not a passive-aggressive twat.

Nog
May 15, 2006

I don't give XP to players who miss sessions as an incentive to show up for sessions. As much as I would like to believe that XP doesn't factor into the decision of some players to show up, I know better than that. I don't particularly like that fact, but it's true nevertheless.

I think the fact I'm even willing to give half XP for basically 15 minutes of writing (in place of a 4 hour session) is plenty of evidence that I don't think that it's all about making the session and crushing skulls. The problem is really, where do you draw the line for what constitutes a valid excuse? If you get an email from someone saying they can't make it because they partied all night and are hungover now, should they get XP? Sure they essentially chose to miss the session, but at the same time, it'd be kind of lame to tell your players to not go out and party the night before the game.

There are all sorts of questionable situations like that, and instead of pissing people off by ruling that one excuse is valid while another isn't, it just seems easiest to blanket rule no XP with the option of half for a short email.

Nog
May 15, 2006

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

If someone takes a poo poo down your throat for an out of game reason you don't penalize them in the drat game. Be a loving adult. You talk to them like a person. You let them know it's disrespectful. You don't ever mess with their character like a goddamn child for petty revenge.

...

At no point did I feel the need to penalize their characters even though the players behaved quite badly, because I'm not a passive-aggressive twat.

Passive-aggressive twat. That's exactly what I am, you nailed it dude. Thanks for talking to me like "a loving adult".

Are you seriously so worried about that half-XP that you consider that "[messing] with their character"? It's not exactly like I poo poo all over them and harbor some secret grudge for the next two months. If someone misses a session - even one meant for their character - I just give them the half XP option, do the encounter the next session, and that's it. I don't see where "petty revenge" kicks in.

Maybe it's a difference of what you guys are willing to accept as a GM. Personally, I'm not the type of guy who is going to give my players a stern talking to about disrespect because they decided to go out and get laid instead of making a session. Honestly, for all this "you're a wimpy twat" talk you're giving, it seems like you're just a dick to your players.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world
It is actually you who is a dick to your players because you punish them in-game for things that happen out-of-game. I'm surprised that you find this so hard to grasp.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.
How do I deal with it? Hmm let's see. This is how I start every single one of these conversations, so far it's never let me down:

"Hey X, here's the thing. I know that you like to party/stay up late in chat rooms/show up so stoned you can't roll straight/whatever, and I respect that decision. We are adults here. But let me give you the flip side. The reality is that I am working really hard on this campaign. I am really engaged in it, putting in hours outside the game to make this an exciting and fun time for you all. And when you deliberately choose to not give a crap, it hurts my feelings. I am working very hard for your entertainment and you are disrespecting that with your behavior."

"All I am asking here is that you care enough to show up consistently and with a decent level of engagement. If you don't want to do that, that's fine. No hard feelings. But I would prefer to get someone else at the table who does. Otherwise I am just spinning my wheels."

By doing this no XP thing, you are hurting yourself. You are making it so that your friends never have to look you in the eye and say, "I don't give a fuuuuuuuuck about your hard work, son." Again, in-game penalties for out-of-game actions are not only stupid, but they don't work. Fix the underlying problem: that these people aren't engaged enough with your campaign. Say to them: get engaged or get out. They don't have to be at every session, but they should want to be there. If they don't care, no amount of penalizing their character is going to help. In fact, they are going to make it worse. They are going to disengage further and further as they fall more and more behind.

Edit: I have probably kicked dozens of players out of campaigns over the years. You don't keep people who are not engaged and don't really care about the game at the table. If the game is something that a particular player comes to because they have nothing better to do, you need to boot them or get their head on straight. That's the worst kind of player.

Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Jul 27, 2009

Mikan
Sep 5, 2007

by Radium

Actually I usually just say something like "sorry you can't make the session dude, I know how much fun you have playing RPGs. I'll email you with a summary of the session and XP/treasure notes later this week"
If chronic absence is a problem then I'll just ask upfront if they're not having fun and if they aren't, that's cool. I'd rather have honesty than somebody not enjoying the game. Making it clear I'll penalize XP and require a homework assignment doesn't sound conducive to a laidback enjoyable RPG experience. :shobon:

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.

Mikan posted:

Actually I usually just say something like "sorry you can't make the session dude, I know how much fun you have playing RPGs. I'll email you with a summary of the session and XP/treasure notes later this week"

Yes, exactly. This is exactly what to do, and if they keep giving weak-rear end excuses or have chronic absenteeism you confront them about it in a nice way.

Nog
May 15, 2006

Here are the two options you as I see it:

1. Try and distinguish what makes a good excuse and what doesn't. Give those people who meet your subjective definition of a good excuse full XP. Those people who don't meet your definitions of a valid excuse get kicked out of the game.

2. Try and be impartial and not make judgments on how people choose to spend their time. Don't award them XP for missing a session regardless of the excuse, but actually still give them the option of getting some XP. Get poo poo on on the forums as as some kind of Nazi GM.

That's what's so hard to understand. You guys seem to think that I'm allowing my emotions to come into this and I'm getting all butthurt and making GBS threads all over my players because of it. Honestly, it seems that option 1 is the more queer, passive aggressive option. "I don't think that going on a date instead of showing up to the session is a valid excuse. Sorry buddy, that's your second strike, you're outta my game! *smug look*" versus "You're going on a date? Okay dude, have a good time. I'll send you the session summary afterwards and I'll look forward to your email."

Literally, every game I've ever played in with every GM I've ever played with has been like this. Never once did I ever feel like the GM was being petty or vengeful. It just made sense.

Edit:
Seriously, what kind of hardcore super rigid schedule groups do you guys play with? Just about every group I've ever played in had most players miss maybe one in five sessions. I never had problems with it, the GM never had problems with it. If I had a problem with folks missing two or three sessions and was booting folks out for it, I don't think I'd ever be able to find people to play with. Hell, we tend to have to cancel entire sessions maybe once every couple months because two or three all can't make it that day.

Nog fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Jul 27, 2009

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.
How old are you?

Nog
May 15, 2006

Heh, sweet. A/S/L, baby?

24 years old. I play with a couple mixed groups of people ranging from their late teens into forties.

Mikan
Sep 5, 2007

by Radium

I didn't say anything in my post about whether an excuse is good or not. I do the same no matter the reason (a date, hangover, death in the family, work issues, whatever).If a player can't make the game for any reason I give them the benefit of the doubt regardless.
If they miss like five or six sessions in a row then yeah I'm gonna ask what's up but I'll do so casually and with no hard feelings.

Why add stress to what should be an entertaining hobby?

Nog
May 15, 2006

Mikan posted:

I didn't say anything in my post about whether an excuse is good or not. I do the same no matter the reason (a date, hangover, death in the family, work issues, whatever).If a player can't make the game for any reason I give them the benefit of the doubt regardless.
If they miss like five or six sessions in a row then yeah I'm gonna ask what's up but I'll do so casually and with no hard feelings.

Why add stress to what should be an entertaining hobby?

I don't have any particular problem with this method. The idea of passing judgment on what constitutes a true commitment to the game after someone misses a couple sessions seems like a dick move though.

Seriously, I don't see why some of you are getting so hurt about this. Like I said, I've never seen or heard someone complain (even in the many other games I've played in like this, and not GMed) about this, and I've never seen someone left more than one level behind the rest. So long as we're all cool about it, and it solves absenteeism problems to all our satisfaction, what the hell is wrong with it?

h_double
Jul 27, 2001

ripped0ff posted:

Not rewarding someone is not the same as punishing them. You're not exactly hitting them with XP loss, you're just not giving them new XP.

Exactly.

The players who ARE present, they presumably have done something to earn those XP, including putting their characters at risk of death or lasting injury, paying to repair/replace damaged armor and equipment, paying for healing, maybe burning through some potions or scrolls. There is a cost for those XP (in the form of risk and expended resources), and if a player gets those same rewards without their character being present, it's not really fair to the other players.

And of course players have lives and can't always make every session, but in my experience that's true of everybody; say on average a player misses one session in five. It evens out over time. If there's unusual circumstances, if one player is going to be out of town for a month, I'd be happy to find some workaround like letting another player control their character, or running a short side-adventure on a different night to help them play catch-up.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.
Well I thought you would be a lot younger.

One last time: you don't need to "incentivize" players to attend your sessions, because the incentive is the fun they will have. What you need to have is players who are engaged with your campaign and want to be there and have fun WHEN they can be there. And there's no amount of mechanical punishment that will make this happen.

As far as "evaluating excuses", there really isn't any evaluation required. Players that miss or half-rear end sessions for voluntary stuff that they have total control over (getting drunk, stoned, staying up too late, procrastinating, surfing the web during games, etc.) are not engaged and don't really care if they are there or not. Mechanical penalties don't work on these players because they are already distant from the game. Players who miss sessions for life stuff (work, finals, family) and who enjoy themselves during a session should not be penalized for things that they have no control over.

Yes, I kick players from my game when they aren't engaged. This is something that is totally easy to spot and requires virtually no effort or critical thinking on the DM's part. Right now I have a player that misses every third session because he is a swim coach and goes to swim meets. But he is happy and engaged when he is there. Should I give him half XP for those missed sessions? Of course not. That would make me a huge rear end in a top hat. An "H_Double" as it were.

Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Jul 27, 2009

Nog
May 15, 2006

The way I see it is like this. You're sitting there at the end of the school year watching your kid's third grade graduation party. His teacher starts handing out rewards to the other kids with "Perfect Attendance", but your poor little Billy missed one day because of the flu. Do you flip out about how that teacher is punishing your kid because he didn't get the Perfect Attendance award and just being sick and having the miss a day of school with his friends is punishment enough, or do you act like an ordinary human being and go, "Oh okay, she's not punishing him, he's just not getting some special reward."

When your players miss a session, it does suck for everyone. That doesn't mean you punish them, but you don't really have to reward them. Like double_h notes, pretty much everyone misses sessions, and even at the end of long campaigns everyone tends to work out about even for XP regardless.

XP is your way of saying "thanks for showing up guys", not some whip I use to punish absenteeism. What's hard to understand about that? I reward attendance.

Mikan
Sep 5, 2007

by Radium

ripped0ff posted:

I don't have any particular problem with this method. The idea of passing judgment on what constitutes a true commitment to the game after someone misses a couple sessions seems like a dick move though.

Where are you getting the "passing judgment" thing from? I just said I'd ask what's going on if somebody's consistently missing game sessions. Not out of irritation or anything, just a genuine attempt at communication. I'm not gonna kick them out or anything. It does give them a chance to let me know if there's something bugging them about the game though.

Even my maptool players can attest to the fact that I am all about communication like that.

Nog
May 15, 2006

Mikan posted:

Where are you getting the "passing judgment" thing from?like that.
Eh, I wasn't talking about you for that part. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Half of Dracula
Oct 24, 2008

Perhaps the same could be
re: the last page,
am i missing something i thought experience was given to characters not players

Nog
May 15, 2006

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

As far as "evaluating excuses", there really isn't any evaluation required. Players that miss or half-rear end sessions for voluntary stuff that they have total control over (getting drunk, stoned, staying up too late, procrastinating, surfing the web during games, etc.) are not engaged and don't really care if they are there or not. Mechanical penalties don't work on these players because they are already distant from the game. Players who miss sessions for life stuff (work, finals, family) and who enjoy themselves during a session should not be penalized for things that they have no control over.

Exactly. You say you aren't evaluating excuses and that you're some sort of awesome impartial robot, but that's bullshit. When someone misses the game because they say they have a big project tomorrow, do you question them about whether or not they could have done more work ahead of time in order to avoid missing the session? Probably not. You just go, "Oh okay, valid excuse, you couldn't have avoided that."

All you're doing is drawing your own personal line about what constitutes "life stuff". Spending the day with your brother who is only in town for the weekend? Valid, apparently (since it's family stuff). Going to the end of term party that's your best chance of getting a girl you've been after for a while? Sorry, you need to commit more to the game.

I don't want to GM like that. If someone can't make it, no problem. So long as you aren't skipping like four or five sessions in a row, like Mikan noted (even then, if they're on vacation, that's fine too), I don't mind.

We're looking at two sides of the same coin. You see XP as something that can be used as punishment. I see it as a reward for attendance.

Half of Dracula
Oct 24, 2008

Perhaps the same could be

ripped0ff posted:

Exactly. You say you aren't evaluating excuses and that you're some sort of awesome impartial robot, but that's bullshit. When someone misses the game because they say they have a big project tomorrow, do you question them about whether or not they could have done more work ahead of time in order to avoid missing the session? Probably not. You just go, "Oh okay, valid excuse, you couldn't have avoided that."

All you're doing is drawing your own personal line about what constitutes "life stuff". Spending the day with your brother who is only in town for the weekend? Valid, apparently (since it's family stuff). Going to the end of term party that's your best chance of getting a girl you've been after for a while? Sorry, you need to commit more to the game.

that's not the differentiation being made you moronic oval office the difference is between people not showing up and them not showing up because they don't really want to

Half of Dracula
Oct 24, 2008

Perhaps the same could be
Well done, guys, you reach Level 4. Ah, not you Frank. Perhaps you should have attented our session on the 14th, hm? :smug:

Mikan
Sep 5, 2007

by Radium

Yeah, vacation is a special circumstance. I missed three sessions of the maptool game I run to spend time moving and going to California.

I don't agree with the way you do things ripped_off but if it works for your group then that's great. I'm just adding my own two cents on the matter to foster discussion since TGD could really use more of it. No hostility on my part.
H_double, on the other hand, the whole thing about players risking their characters and "earning" XP kinda boggles the mind. RPGs aren't serious business. I mean RPGs own and they're something I'm involved with both as a hobby and professionally but that kind of "the players must earn the right to deserve XP" thing is weird

Nog
May 15, 2006

Well done guys, you reached Level 4. Sadly, Frank is no longer with us, as he chose to go to the waterpark last week and that was the last straw.

How the gently caress do you decide when someone wants to play your precious game enough? Semper Fi DnD, motherfuckers. I can't even imagine being a big enough dick to lecture someone on how committed they are to playing DnD.

Kemper Boyd
Aug 6, 2007

no kings, no gods, no masters but a comfy chair and no socks

ripped0ff posted:

How the gently caress do you decide when someone wants to play your precious game enough? Semper Fi DnD, motherfuckers. I can't even imagine being a big enough dick to lecture someone on how committed they are to playing DnD.

It's no different from any other activity that's dependent on the participation of other people. I mean, you might get pissed if you're supposed to go bowling with five other guys and two people don't show up and one is stoned out of his gourd. For any group activity, it's reasonable enough to ask people to commit at least to some degree.

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire

ripped0ff posted:

How the gently caress do you decide when someone wants to play your precious game enough? Semper Fi DnD, motherfuckers. I can't even imagine being a big enough dick to lecture someone on how committed they are to playing DnD.

And yet aren't you trying to do that by penalizing XP?
"Show up to my game or fall behind. If you dont like it I guess you can enjoy being useless"

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

ripped0ff posted:

Well done guys, you reached Level 4. Sadly, Frank is no longer with us, as he chose to go to the waterpark last week and that was the last straw.

How the gently caress do you decide when someone wants to play your precious game enough? Semper Fi DnD, motherfuckers. I can't even imagine being a big enough dick to lecture someone on how committed they are to playing DnD.

Hahaha you're incapable of conceiving of any kind of DM/player interaction except in terms of punishment for misdeeds

Nog
May 15, 2006

We're kind of on a second subject right now (commitment versus XP), but I fully agree that everyone needs to commit to some degree. I keep my degree much lighter (I think most of us do), than MM Jockstrap does though. To say that the solution to player absenteeism is to kick players out seems a bit silly. If they miss a month of sessions or something, and aren't on vacation or something, kicking them out isn't a problem, but evaluating their commitment on a session-by-session basis seems incredibly strict.

As far as not rewarding XP (see that, we refer to it as "rewarding XP", not "withholding punishment") for a session goes though, the way I see it is this: As a GM, I'll do what the players like most. If I withheld some player's XP for missing a session and everyone thought that I was being extra mean and that I had ruined their fun, I'd have a change of heart. The way it is with the groups I'm playing with now (and all the groups I've played with in the past) though, is that this is the way we've always done it and the normal way of things in PnP gaming as far as all of us are concerned. If I were to give someone full XP even after they missed a session, I'd probably get funny looks from my players and have them all ask me why I did that.

I'm not above doing what's most fun for the players, and I like to think that I do do that. I love mystery/horror style games, but I run hack-and-slash because that what the players like. I always award more XP than the rules say to. I always give extra bonuses and rewards outside of the rules. I'm hardly some kind of inconsiderate prick. So long as I keep playing with folks like this though, I'll be light on commitment and withhold XP for missing sessions.

Nog
May 15, 2006

Ferrinus posted:

Hahaha you're incapable of conceiving of any kind of DM/player interaction except in terms of punishment for misdeeds

How the gently caress do you even get that out of what I was saying? I was parodying what Half of Dracula said, not giving an example of something I would say. Megaman's Jockstrap is the one going on about lecturing players for some sort of attendance problem.

RagnarokAngel posted:

And yet aren't you trying to do that by penalizing XP?
"Show up to my game or fall behind. If you dont like it I guess you can enjoy being useless"

Like I've noted though, I have never once seen someone drop more than one level behind (they were level 7 and only a couple thousand XP away from the lvl 8 players) even with these rules. No one is left useless, partly because everyone tends to miss a session or two, not just one player. That means that everyone gets "left behind" equally as much over time.

Nog fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Jul 27, 2009

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

ripped0ff posted:

How the gently caress do you even get that out of what I was saying? I was parodying what Half of Dracula said, not giving an example of something I would say. Megaman's Jockstrap is the one going on about lecturing players for some sort of attendance problem.

Right, and you think that lecture or game ejection is supposed to be some kind of stand-in punishment since the normal punishment of removing xp has been arbitrarily declared off-limits. It's really very sad.

Countblanc
Apr 20, 2005

Help a hero out!
I'm no DM, and fairly new to traditional gaming as a whole, but I really can't see past the "the person is missing a fun activity, why should they be further punished?" line of thinking. Maybe I'm just naive though.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Countblanc posted:

I'm no DM, and fairly new to traditional gaming as a whole, but I really can't see past the "the person is missing a fun activity, why should they be further punished?" line of thinking. Maybe I'm just naive though.

When you're not a very good DM you need to scrape together any incentive you can get for people to actually show up

Countblanc
Apr 20, 2005

Help a hero out!
If someone is habitually absent though, yes, talk to them to see why. Is it because they've had some heavy poo poo to deal with, or are they just not having fun? If it's the latter, tell them that they're welcome to leave. It's a 4-6 hour leisure activity, why would you want to be apart of it if it isn't fun? The party can deal without their 5th member if the DM knows his poo poo anyway.

Nog
May 15, 2006

Ferrinus posted:

Right, and you think that lecture or game ejection is supposed to be some kind of stand-in punishment since the normal punishment of removing xp has been arbitrarily declared off-limits. It's really very sad.

No, the lecture isn't a stand-in punishment, it's just stupid. If you don't like playing with someone or they miss just about every session, kick them out. You don't need to talk to them like they're a kid and scold them about their commitment to DnD.

What I can't see past is the hypocrisy of all this. I go, "Well guys, this is the way me and everyone I've ever played with have ever played and what we're comfortable with and enjoy." Then I get back, "You're loving stupid dude, you need to do it the way we say to, because that's the only way to enjoy DnD. Your players are #1, but by 'your players' we actually mean 'our opinions'."

I actually did something super nerdy and crunched some numbers to show you how massive this "punishment" is.

Let's say that on average, folks earn 500 times the party's average level in XP every session. You run a 10 session campaign track with an experience reward at the end for all the players finishing the campaign track. Jim misses the third and fifth sessions.

1st session - 500 xp
2nd session - 500 xp (every hits 1000 xp and level 2)
3rd session - 1000 xp (every hits 2000 xp, except Jim, who gets half XP and goes to 1500 xp)
4th session - 1000 xp (every but Jim makes 3rd level and 3000 xp, Jim is only 500 xp behind)
5th session - 1500 xp (everyone else is at 4500 xp, but Jim who misses his second session and gets half again, going to 3250 xp and 3rd level)
6th session - 1500 xp (everyone else makes 4th level, and Jim gets to 4750 xp)
7th session - 2000 xp (everyone else is at 8000 xp, and Jim gets to 4th level and 6750 xp, he has missed two sessions and is the same level)
8th session - 2000 xp (everyone else makes 5th level but Jim)
9th session - 2500 xp (everyone else is at 12500 xp, but Jim who makes lvl 5 and has 11250 xp)
10th session - 2500 xp with 1000 xp bonus (everyone else makes 6th level and 16k exp, Jim is trailing at 14750 xp, just 250 shy of 6th lvl)

The higher the level, the less difference missing half XP makes each time. This also assumes that Jim is the only one to miss any of the ten sessions. If everyone else had missed even just one session, they'd all pretty much have the same XP.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.
I don't kick a ton of people out of my game. The reality is, every campaign has players that are not going to be engaged with the game at various times. When this happens, one of the first symptoms is absenteeism. Reason 1 of why people disengage from the game is because they aren't having fun. Reason 2 is usually player attitude; they consider RPG time to be "default" fun, which is to say the player has the following attitude: I will play if I can't find anything better to do.

For reason type 1, you have to try to make the game more fun for them. Ways you can make the game more fun: cater more to their playstyle, let them start a different character, let them DM. Talk to them about what they expect to get out of the game. If you can ratchet up the fun for them they will become engaged. I want to stress again that this is by far the most common cause of "bullshit" absenteeism and is the easiest to fix.

Reason type 2 is a poison and if you cannot correct it the offending player needs to be kicked out of the group. This player will miss sessions because they just don't give a gently caress, playing an RPG to them is like watching TV and your RPG is the equivalent of the "well, nothing else is on" channel. This is disrespectful to the other players and especially the GM.

Now I did not talk about the third reason to miss a game, which is of course that the player wants to be there but can't because they have a commitment that prevents it.

These are pretty much the only 3 reasons people miss games and if you can logically tell me how punishing the player mechanically helps any 3 of these situations then I'll listen. P.S. trick question, you can't.

Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Jul 27, 2009

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

ripped0ff posted:

No, the lecture isn't a stand-in punishment, it's just stupid. If you don't like playing with someone or they miss just about every session, kick them out. You don't need to talk to them like they're a kid and scold them about their commitment to DnD.

What I can't see past is the hypocrisy of all this. I go, "Well guys, this is the way me and everyone I've ever played with have ever played and what we're comfortable with and enjoy." Then I get back, "You're loving stupid dude, you need to do it the way we say to, because that's the only way to enjoy DnD. Your players are #1, but by 'your players' we actually mean 'our opinions'."

I actually did something super nerdy and crunched some numbers to show you how massive this "punishment" is.

Let's say that on average, folks earn 500 times the party's average level in XP every session. You run a 10 session campaign track with an experience reward at the end for all the players finishing the campaign track. Jim misses the third and fifth sessions.

1st session - 500 xp
2nd session - 500 xp (every hits 1000 xp and level 2)
3rd session - 1000 xp (every hits 2000 xp, except Jim, who gets half XP and goes to 1500 xp)
4th session - 1000 xp (every but Jim makes 3rd level and 3000 xp, Jim is only 500 xp behind)
5th session - 1500 xp (everyone else is at 4500 xp, but Jim who misses his second session and gets half again, going to 3250 xp and 3rd level)
6th session - 1500 xp (everyone else makes 4th level, and Jim gets to 4750 xp)
7th session - 2000 xp (everyone else is at 8000 xp, and Jim gets to 4th level and 6750 xp, he has missed two sessions and is the same level)
8th session - 2000 xp (everyone else makes 5th level but Jim)
9th session - 2500 xp (everyone else is at 12500 xp, but Jim who makes lvl 5 and has 11250 xp)
10th session - 2500 xp with 1000 xp bonus (everyone else makes 6th level and 16k exp, Jim is trailing at 14750 xp, just 250 shy of 6th lvl)

The higher the level, the less difference missing half XP makes each time. This also assumes that Jim is the only one to miss any of the ten sessions. If everyone else had missed even just one session, they'd all pretty much have the same XP.

Hmmm, interesting. So what you're telling me is that because Jim misses game sessions, his character is made weaker than everyone else's character to punish him for it.

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Nog
May 15, 2006

"Why doesn't my little Billy get the award for perfect attendance? He wanted to show up that day, but he was sick!"

"I'm sorry, ma'am, but we use the Perfect Attendance certificate as a small token reward to encourage students to attend."

"Yea, but he missed classed and he missed his friends, isn't that punishment enough?"

"Ma'am, we're not punishing Billy. It's just a silly certificate. It wouldn't really be fair to give it to Billy."

"This is inexcusable! You can't punish him like this! He'll be left behind, all of Perfect Attendance kids will do better in school than him now."

"The reward doesn't mean that much, it won't really set him back. Trust me, in a couple weeks this 'punishment' won't even matter anymore. It's so slight you'll probably forget about it."

"gently caress you! gently caress this school! I'm gonna go homeschool my kid!"

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