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I can't believe this poo poo. I've been a goon for 3 years and an amateur astronomer for 15, and I only just discovered this thread. Are there many amateur astronomer goons in the Phoenix, AZ area? I sometimes run public star parties at the Arizona Museum of Natural History. I think it would be fun to organize a goon star party.
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# ¿ Nov 30, 2009 18:38 |
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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 02:24 |
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DorianGravy posted:First, wanted to thank all of you for this great thread. I have a Seymour solar thin film filter. A dealer in my neighborhood sells sheets of Seymour's filter material and I built a mounting cell to fit it on my 6" dob and secure it with straps of velcro. It is a very good filter, and you can see sunspots, faculae and granulation with it. Using various eyepiece color filters can make certain features pop out a bit better. HIGHLY recommended.
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# ¿ Jan 14, 2010 02:19 |
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Orion just announced a cool new scope on their facebook page, although they haven't put it on their website yet: SkyQuest XTG fully GoTo/Tracking motorized/computerized dobsonians in 8 inch, 10 inch and 12 inch versions. Apparently they use the same "SynScan" controllers on their larger computerized mounts and on SkyWatcher's computerized telescopes. They might make good star party scopes.
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# ¿ Feb 15, 2010 01:02 |
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Cmdr. Shepard posted:Are there any focusing knob modifications I can do for my Celestron 114GT? At medium to high magnifications, the focus knob needs a miniscule amount of turning to bring the image into focus and it's almost impossible to be precise with such a clunky and high-geared focuser. One thing you can do is remove the focuser from the scope and re-lubricate it. All Celestron scopes are manufactured by Synta technologies in China. They also manufacture most scopes by Orion and SkyWatcher, and they're the parent company of Celestron. While Synta typically makes great poo poo, they use the weirdest gluey crap to lubricate everything. It's sticky, has the consistency of tar, and has terrible thermal properties. Re-lubricating the focuser will do wonders towards making it easier to focus at high magnifications. First, after removing the focuser from the optical tube assembly, dismantle the focuser entirely. Keep an eye on how it all goes together. Now, unless I'm very much mistaken, the 114GT has a corrective Barlow lens built into the focuser drawtube. If this lens CAN be unscrewed and removed, do so and set it aside. If it can't, care must be taken to prevent any cleaning chemicals from coming in contact with the lens surface, as the optical coatings may get damaged. Now, you'll need the following: WD40 Formula 409 degreaser White Lithium grease A toothbrush you never plan to use again Liberally spray WD40 everywhere you find the "Gluebricant," particularly in the gear surfaces. Let it absorb for about 10 minutes. WD40 is pretty much the best degreaser solvent on the planet for this, but you'll need a second degreaser to get the WD40 off. Use the toothbrush to scrub out the now combined WD40 and Gluebricant, using the 409 degreaser to further loosen the combination. Thoroughly wipe it all off with a wet paper towel. If any Gluebricant remains, repeat as necessary. Once the focuser components are completely clean and dry, lubricate the gear surfaces with the white lithium grease. Reassemble the focuser and adjust the tightness of the screws holding the mating gears and backing panel together. You want the drawtube to move smoothly and freely when you turn the knob, but also to stay where you leave it. If the screws are too loose, the weight of an eyepiece will cause the drawtube to move of its own accord. You need to find a happy medium of tightness. When all this is done, reinstall the focuser on the tube and you should be good to go! This will make focusing MUCH easier.
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# ¿ Aug 6, 2010 17:19 |
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I was at my club's solar star party this morning and got to see my first flare through a Lunt solar systems H-alpha scope. It was loving righteous.
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# ¿ Aug 14, 2010 21:04 |
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pipebomb posted:Hey guys. VERY VERY newb question here - I am wanting to jump into this, so I have a few... You WOULD be able to attach a camera with special adapters. Astrophotography, however, is nowhere near as simple as hooking up a camera and pressing a button. It takes a lot of discipline and practice to get images that look even halfway decent. As for nebulae, galaxies, etc, you can definitely see many brighter ones with a 5" Schmidt-Cassegrain. Be prepared, however, that you need to get outside of city lights to see them and most of them will look like smudges of light. If you expect them to look like the photos you see, you will be disappointed. CCDs and photographic plates are much more sensitive to fine details and colors than the human eye. The NexStar 5 is an excellent telescope, and 300 bucks is a steal. It WILL show excellent detail on most of the solar system (Mercury, Uranus and Neptune will be pretty hard to see, but still there. You can forget pluto - WAY too dim to see with a 5" scope). I say go for it.
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# ¿ Aug 21, 2010 20:50 |
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Metajo Cum Dumpster posted:Bought a Celestron 102SLT refractor to complement my 10" dobs as a more portable scope but I'm kind of disappointed in the stability of the tripod. I can't extend the legs to standing height or the view gets real shaky even on my 21mm baader. Hanging a wight from the center tripod spreader helps, as does tightening down the bolts that attach the tripod legs to the mount. Additionally, try getting a set of vibration suppression pads to place under the feet of the tripod. Some people dismiss them as a gimmick without trying them, but they really work. Also, ALL tripods are more stable with the legs retracted. Build yourself a "Denver Chair" (instructions in Star Ware, second edition, or google "Denver Astronomy Chair"), keep the legs retracted and enjoy the view while sitting down. Trust me, your back will thank you. It will go well with your dob, too.
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# ¿ Aug 30, 2010 23:35 |
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INTJ Mastermind posted:My chair is FIGHT!!! A cloudy nights goon! Greetings!
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# ¿ Nov 11, 2010 19:49 |
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Baconroll posted:Got first light with my new Celestron NexStar SE6 last night - lots of cloud and the moon was too bright but the star align worked first time and I got a nice view of Jupiter with a coloured band, and its 4 main moons. Harbor Freight Tools has some awesome tool/camera cases full of "pull 'n pluck" cubed foam for cheap, and they make great eyepiece and accessory cases.
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# ¿ Nov 25, 2010 02:49 |
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Welp, it has been a couple of years since I checked into the thread, but I figured I'd wander in to gloat a bit. Getting my first H-alpha scope tomorrow night, a brand new PST with case from a member of my astronomy club for about half of regular price. Story goes like this. He had a PST from the first production run that over time developed the dreaded "rust." He sent it back to Meade for repair, they fix it, ship it back out and... it never arrived. Turns out FedEx lost the scope somewhere in Utah. It took him a better part of a year to get everything settled between FedEx and Meade. Of course he started to get impatient and ordered a Lunt 60 Pressure Tuned double stack rig in the meantime. Once Meade gets everything squared away, they send him a brand new, fresh off the lines PST... which is now utterly redundant. So I'm getting a screaming deal. Can't wait to get my hands on that beautiful new toy tomorrow!
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# ¿ Aug 20, 2012 04:27 |
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Vain posted:So I've had my 8 inch dobsonian since May and I think it's time I upgraded my eyepieces from the supplied 25mm and 10mm. My telescope has a focal length of 1200mm and is f/5.9. Reading around it seems that a 5mm EP is the shortest I would want to go with this telescope (I live in the UK), is this right? And what about on the other end? It seems that you can get EP up to 40mm and beyond. If I wanted a low power, wide FOV, what would be my best bet? To be totally honest, seeing conditions will RARELY allow you to use a 5mm EP, especially with the usually iffy seeing in the UK. I'd say the lowest you would want to go is in to 6 to 7 range and to avoid Plossls in the focal length because the eye lenses are way too small to allow comfortable observing. Better to get something with long eye relief like the Zhumell LER eyepieces. In terms of longer focal length eyepieces, here's one important thing to consider. Does your dob have a 1.25" or 2" focuser? The reason being that 1.25" eyepieces can only allow for so much true field before they suffer from the law of diminishing returns. For example a 1.25" 40mm Plossl can only show as much of the sky as a 32mm Plossl because the barrel size constrains it to a narrower apparent field. If, on the other hand, you have a 2" focuser on your scope, there's a whole world of longer focal length eyepieces you can use to get incredible low power, wide field views. They will be expensive, though. Edited because holy poo poo, the Awful iPhone app really hates umlauts!
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# ¿ Oct 7, 2012 16:34 |
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That Skywatcher is a nice setup that'll serve you well for years.
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# ¿ Mar 4, 2013 02:49 |
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Trambopaline posted:Just popping in with binocular chat. I've been wanting to get more seriously into stars and now that I've actually read around this issue, I'm also starting to think a pair would do me well, since it would also help for me being interested in birds as well. I might be able to wrangle a second hand post war japanese pair of 7x50's if I try really hard. Should I bother with something like that, or just a decent pair of modern ones? Meh. Depends on how far post-war you're talking about. Immediately post-war? Avoid. Something from the 70s through 90s in good condition? Now we're talking. To be honest though, a lot of the cheaper stuff coming from China these days is really good and you're probably better off buying new where binoculars are concerned. Also, with used vintage binoculars it's often hard to find out what type of optical glass is used for the prisms, and that can make a big difference in light throughput and image quality. Try to get binos with BAK-4 (Barium Crown) prisms. This pair is really good: http://www.telescope.com/Binoculars/Astronomy-Binoculars/Orion-Scenix-7x50-Binoculars/pc/-1/c/5/sc/72/p/9332.uts Also, to hone your binocular observing skills, the Astronomical League has a number of binocular observing programs. Check them out.
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# ¿ Mar 10, 2013 19:41 |
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Silver Alicorn posted:Surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet, but if you're on the US west coast there's a comet called PANSTARRS that will be visible tonight, shortly after sunset. It's reaching its brightest tonight but should still be somewhat visible going forward. Saw it tonight from a friend's observatory (12" LX200). Not easy to see with the naked eye, that's for drat sure. Relatively easy with binoculars. Spectacular in the scope.
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# ¿ Mar 11, 2013 05:26 |
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That 70s Shirt posted:Here's a fun thing I did last weekend. I piggybacked my Nikon D800 on my 6" Celestron and had it shooting timelapse frames while I was observing. The results are pretty cool, although shooting under actually dark skies would be enormously helpful. It's okay though, I did this really just as a proof-of-concept test. I've got a more involved and longer video planned for this summer's Golden State Star Party. Doing a timelapse like this under the skies out there should be loving amazing. Man, you should do a messier marathon time lapse video like that. That would be loving hardcore.
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# ¿ Mar 15, 2013 05:37 |
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Just want to put out the word to any astronomer goons from Colorado or surrounding states. In June, my club (Colorado Springs Astronomical Society) will be hosting our big annual star party, the Rocky Mountain Star Stare. Attendance is usually in the 300 range, and we have pristine dark skies on our land near Gardner, CO. I'll be giving a talk this year on the history of eyepiece technology. Of course, I'm also the opening act for Michael Bicay, science director of NASA's Ames research center. That's more than a little nerve wracking and intimidating, I tell you what. The event is 5 days total and a grand time is had by all. http://www.rmss.org
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# ¿ Mar 16, 2013 04:04 |
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There are two things at work here, and I assure you there's nothing arbitrary or inconsistent about the magnitude system. First of all, both objects you had trouble seeing are close to much brighter objects. When there's a bright object like Saturn or Zeta Orionis in the field of view, much dimmer objects like Rhea or the flame nebula (I'll get to the nebula in just a second) are more difficult to see than an equally bright point source in an otherwise mostly dark field. Second, nebulae and galaxies are diffuse objects. When you look at a measurement of magnitude, the number given is for combined total surface brightness. Thus, a +2 magnitude nebula is going to appear MUCH dimmer than a +2 magnitude star. The closer an object of a given magnitude is to being a point source, the easier it will be to see. This combined with the apparent brightness difference between the Flame and Zeta orionis leads to it being a very difficult object to see. The best way to see the Flame is with a UHC filter. It's a dichroic filter that allows light from the spectral lines H-beta, H-alpha and OIII to come through but blocks a large percentage of everything else. A UHC filter will dim the light from Zeta Orionis (which, being a star, has a continuous spectrum) while allowing the light from the Flame (which primarily emits in only a handful of spectral lines) to pass through. It will also increase contrast between the nebula and the sky background.
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# ¿ Mar 23, 2013 00:38 |
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Exactly. Visibility and magnitude are very different. There are some dwarf galaxies that are magnitude 8, but because they cover nearly a degree of sky they get vastly outshone by 10th magnitude field stars.
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# ¿ Mar 23, 2013 05:47 |
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As far as books and accessories, I would recommend the following: Pocket Sky Atlas by Sky Publishing. Great all-around field guide. I find it more convenient in the field than software like Sky Safari, and it's surprisingly comprehensive. Get a Rigel Qwikfinder reflex sight. It's a good lightweight HUD-style finder that's WAY better than the red dot finders that currently come with an XT8. Order a few of these: http://scopestuff.com/ss_mwt1.htm or make your own with some big ceramic ring magnets and some thin adhesive-backed felt. The tension springs on the XT8 will prevent the scope from slipping if it's out of balance, but if the balance is off you'll still get backlash when moving the scope in small increments when tracking objects across the sky. A couple magnetic weights will make life easier if you add an improved finder or use heavier eyepieces or a solar filter. If you're willing to spend a couple hundred bucks, pick up a couple of 82* eyepieces from Explore Scientific. The southern sky has some really cool poo poo like the magellanic clouds and the tarantula nebula, and you'll want to have a good wide-field eyepiece or two to soak up the sights. This is a less pressing thing than the counterweights and the finder, but they'll be good to have in the long run.
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# ¿ Apr 17, 2013 19:44 |
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If anybody else is into solar observing, check out active region 1726 before it dissipates. With a white light filter or Herschel wedge it looks like a ginormous clusterfuck of sunspots. With an H-alpha rig it looks like a swirling vortex of doom. I've been observing it with my Coronado PST and it has been shooting off M-class flares like there's no tomorrow.
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# ¿ Apr 23, 2013 19:03 |
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Possibly not the scope but the imager used. What are you using to take the pics? CMOS imagers are extremely susceptible to Newton rings and aren't well suited to H-alpha imaging.
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# ¿ Apr 24, 2013 17:11 |
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Good idea. Unfortunately if you use a CMOS sensor with an H-Alpha scope, you're gonna get Newton rings. The quality of the scope used is immaterial. From the lowliest PST to a pressure tuned LS152, they're all going to show Newton rings when used with a CMOS camera. I certainly know what you mean about getting used to solar astronomy. I bought a PST last summer and haven't looked back. It quickly became my most used telescope. Not only does it allow you to do astronomy any drat comfortable time, but the sun in H-alpha is just so drat dramatic!
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# ¿ Apr 24, 2013 21:23 |
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This is funny. I've been putting together a good astronomy playlist for when I'm stargazing alone. So far my playlist includes: "No Words" - Alan Silvestri, Contact Soundtrack "Small Moves" - Alan Silvestri, Contact Soundtrack "Heaven and Hell, third movement" - Vangelis "Pulstar" - Vangelis "Alpha" - Vangelis "Journey of the Sorcerer" - The Eagles Deep Space Nine main theme (seasons 1-3) Star Trek First Contact main title theme "Dark Was the Night, Cold was the ground" - Blind Willie Johnson "1ere Arabesque" - Isao Tomita "Downside Up" - Peter Gabriel, New Blood "The Nest that sailed the sky" - Peter Gabriel, New Blood "The Chieftains in Orbit" - The Chieftains, Voice of Ages "Sarabande in Pencil form" - Calexico, Carried to Dust "Watching the Northern Lights" - Barenaked Ladies, All in good time "Satellite" - Dave Matthews Band "Moon" - Rusted Root "Back to the Earth" - Rusted Root I've been soliciting for suggestions on what to add next on various astronomy forums and social networking sites. On one amateur astronomy facebook group I got a scathing response that NOBODY should listen to music while observing, that it's irritating to other astronomers (in spite of the fact that I specifically said I enjoy music when stargazing ALONE) and that I should quit amateur astronomy entirely because my "behavior is degrading to the hobby." I never knew there were such pretentious hipster pieces of poo poo in the hobby! Anyway, anybody got any good suggestions on what to add? I'm focusing on mellow and atmospheric music that isn't too heavily electronic.
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# ¿ May 7, 2013 03:14 |
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I've been playing around with using my Canon point-and-shoot afocally mounted on my PST and taking VGA resolution .avi movies and stacking the frames in Registax. Decent results so far.
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# ¿ May 11, 2013 00:43 |
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Very nice shots (and yes, the moon photo is showing up fine). What kind of H-alpha scope were you using?
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# ¿ May 27, 2013 01:37 |
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Anybody else in this thread working on Astronomical League observing programs? I just finished the basic level outreach award and I'm deep into working on the Sunspotter, Messier and Binocular Messier awards. They're a lot of fun.
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# ¿ Jun 2, 2013 16:12 |
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Bear in mind, though, that a 6" or 8" is WAY too big for a 7 year old to handle. Most of them would need a step stool to look through the eyepiece (trust me on this, I do a lot of demonstrations for schools and scout troupes). Believe it or not, the Orion Skyscanner 4" newtonian is an AWFULLY good telescope for around 100 bucks. ( http://www.telescope.com/Telescopes/TableTop-Telescopes/Orion-SkyScanner-100mm-TableTop-Reflector-Telescope/pc/-1/c/1/sc/416/p/102007.uts ) I've played around with these on a number of occasions and always come away impressed with the quality. You can see a LOT with one of these, it's easy for a kid to use and transport, and can be mounted on a tripod as well to raise the eyepiece height. At a dark sky site, these things are lots of fun for putting on a picnic table and just casually scanning the milky way. Great wide field scope.
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# ¿ Jun 24, 2013 15:54 |
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Good time to ask this question, because I'm a goon currently writing an article for Sky and Telescope about this subject and the history of eyepiece development. I have heard the term seagulling, and it's a different phenomenon from Coma. It's basically edge of field distortion and some eyepieces are more prone to it than others. While just about any eyepieces will work in a long focal ratio scope, shorter focal ratios can exacerbate edge distortion problems in Kellners, RKEs, Erfles, Konigs and some cheaper widefield eyepieces like Orion's Expanse eyepieces. Coma, on the other hand, will be apparent in any eyepiece and requires a coma-correcting lens like a TeleVue Parracorr or an AstroTech Coma Corrector in order to see pinpoint stars in fast telescopes. Also, this is primarily a phenomenon associated with large, fast Newtonians, but high-end refractors are largely unaffected by this.
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# ¿ Jul 7, 2013 16:43 |
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Plossls will have a bit of edge distortion if used without a coma corrector.
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# ¿ Jul 10, 2013 01:23 |
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The virgo cluster is fun, but trying to locate a specific galaxy out of the multitudes is a pain in the rear end. Makes the Herschel 400 Astronomical League observing program a task, I tell you what.
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# ¿ Jul 19, 2013 20:31 |
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ThatOtherGuy posted:So I've finally decided to take the plunge and do something about my lifelong astronomy fascination. Did some research(including this thread), bought a 10'' dobsonian, a few accessories, and a few books. This is pretty much the entire reason astronomy clubs exist; so that newbs can gain experience.
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# ¿ Jul 28, 2013 15:40 |
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There's also a few percentage points lost due to secondary mirror obstruction equal to the percentage of the primary mirror area obstructed. My 6" f/8 dobsonian has a 1" diameter central obstruction. The mirrors are 86% reflectivity. Ultimately, only 71.9% of the light entering the tube reaches the eyepiece. On higher-end apochromatic refractors with premium AR coatings, light throughput at the objective is usually around 99% to 99.5%. Combine that with a 99% reflectivity dielectric diagonal and you usually have a less than 2% light loss before the eyepiece. That, combined with lack of diffraction fuzz imparted by central obstruction and spider vanes gives you an idea of why high end refractors are so rabidly prized. An apo refractor will always wipe the floor with a similarly sized reflector or catadioptric. Wish I could afford one.
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# ¿ Jul 31, 2013 17:00 |
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That's true up to a certain point, but larger telescopes tend to be more affected by atmospheric dispersion, tube currents, optics cool-down issues, etc, etc, etc. Especially for planetary and double star observing, there's a lot to be said for a good refractor. In less-than-perfect seeing conditions I've seen 4" refractors walking all over 20" newtonians. Of course, for serious deep-sky a big truss dob is THE way to go, and RCs and DKs are the best for imaging and photometry. I guess what I'm trying to say is EVERY telescope design is a compromise in one way or another and there really is NO one-size-fits-all perfect scope in this hobby for ANY purpose. I'm a big advocate of having multiple scopes for filling in different uses. Also, while dielectric coatings on mirrors have high reflectivity and durability, they can also lead to a slight unevenness on the mirror's surface for any non-flat optical surface. This is just because they're applied in DOZENS of layers and unevenness in one layer can ripple through the other layers. This can impart optical aberrations on an otherwise pristine surface if they're applied poorly. A friend of mine had this happen when he got a 10" Zambuto mirror recoated with dielectric coatings and the job was botched. Testing showed surface roughness and a zone where there was a near perfect figure before. The mirror was essentially ruined because those dielectric coatings are so durable that you pretty much have to remove the top surface of the mirror to get rid of them. He wound up having to send it back to Carl Zambuto for refiguring at huge expense.
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# ¿ Jul 31, 2013 20:08 |
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Another advantage to refractors; being able to use a Herschel Wedge for white light solar observing. Baader film is great, but the granulation and sunspot penumbral detail you get with a 4" or 5" refractor and a Herschel prism is just plain awe-inspiring. Even a cheap achromat in the 4" to 5" range works great for this purpose because using a pale yellow color filter not only masks the chromatic aberration, but gives a more "expected" color to the view. Piggybacking a Hydrogen alpha scope on a moderate sized refractor with a Herschel Wedge is a dynamite combination for doing outreach and education work. Gives a great visual example of the differences between photosphere and chromosphere details, while also placing the eyepieces close together so you can switch back and forth easily. I know this is kind of a niche advantage, but speaking as a solar astronomy junkie and someone who does a LOT of outreach, this is stuff that matters in equipment choices.
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# ¿ Jul 31, 2013 20:17 |
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Wolf on Air posted:ANYWAY, if the performance of a given scope is in accordance with your preferences or needs (not everyone wants to tote around a ten-plus-inches tube), then . I can't speak for outreach needs either, other than that it sounds plausible. Solar observation is a thing with so special and massive outlays of cash I have only dabbled with solar film to catch the Venus transit (and I didn't even succeed at doing enough video to bother stacking for actual detail. At least I Was There (and I even got published in Astronomy Now! magazine, I have a symbolic royalties check to prove it, somewhere.)) But wedges are cool as poo poo. Theoretically a huge IR-cut window could let you do the same thing on a reflector, but who's going to bother with that? Be very careful how much you dabble with that solar film, because solar astronomy can get very addictive and lead you down a path to certain financial ruin. Still, I'll never again be without a dedicated H-alpha scope. It's SO MUCH FUN.
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# ¿ Aug 1, 2013 22:55 |
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That description is impossible to follow. Near the perseids? What the gently caress does that even mean? Also, where was this seen from? That could give a big clue. If it's only seen certain days, it could be a parachute flare if there's an artillery range in the area. I see stuff like that all the time in Colorado Springs are because there's so much military activity here. AstroZamboni fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Aug 12, 2013 |
# ¿ Aug 12, 2013 16:58 |
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Also, Eastern Air Defense Sector is there along with a fair bit of other air force / military activity.
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# ¿ Aug 13, 2013 03:04 |
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It's misleading advertising. The MIRROR is of short focal length, but the OVERALL OPTICAL SYSTEM isn't. These are what are called "Bird-Jones Newtonians." They use a short focal-ratio mirror (usually a lovely spherical mirror) with an integrated barlow lens built into the focuser drawtube that can't be removed. The barlow increases the focal length and corrects for (some) spherical aberration and coma while causing all new aberrations like chromatic aberration, not to mention they have a lot of diffraction fuzz because they need a big secondary mirror. Avoid. AstroZamboni fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Aug 16, 2013 |
# ¿ Aug 16, 2013 02:52 |
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Woodsy Owl posted:Righteous, I knew there was something shady going on. Thanks man. I've been doing this poo poo for twenty years. I know all the shady stuff out there. Owned some of it too.
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# ¿ Aug 16, 2013 03:30 |
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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 02:24 |
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I've been routinely amazed at what I can do with my iPhone's camera for doing afocal photography. I have an Orion Steadypix adapter for iPhone, and I use burst mode in the Camera+ app with the volume button on the headphone cord as a shutter release so my chances of catching those flickery moments of good seeing increases. Next step is to stack the shots I get in Registax. I'm going to try using my friend's C8 on AVX setup so it can track so I can get a really long burst of a few thousand frames to stack so that I can get some really clean shots. Considering typical webcam stuff is only VGA resolution for stacking, I'm hoping to get some good shots with a bigger 8mp image scale. I'm definitely looking forward to upgrading to the iPhone 5S in November. Rumors and parts leaks are saying it'll have a better camera setup with f/2.0 aperture and 12mp camera as well as processor and OS updates that will allow for up to 60fps camera burst modes. That'll make it a pretty formidable camera for doing afocal imaging and stacking.
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# ¿ Aug 27, 2013 16:28 |